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OK, what the FRELL was going on with the Klingons...?
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<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="1" width="95%" align="center"> <tr bgcolor="#234c6f"><td> <table border="0" width="100%" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="1"> <tr bgcolor="#234c6f"> <td colspan="2" align="left"> <font size="3" color="#FFFFFF" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>T O P I C ��� R E V I E W</b> </font></td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Omega</b> <br /><small>Member # 91</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2001,11,31,18,22,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">December 31, 2001</span> <span class="timeformat-0">06:22 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Just saw "The Enemy". Riker talks about a war with the Klingons. WHAT WAR? There wasn't a Klingon/Federation war until DS9.<br /><br />This is right up there with Wesley saying that the Klingons joined the Federation in "Samaritan Snare".<br /><br />Buh? <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>AndrewR</b> <br /><small>Member # 44</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,0,1,3,21,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">January 01, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">03:21 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I gather there was some sort of war - where the attack on a Federation base took place - as per Kor in "Once more unto the breach".<br /><br />And well, Buck-wheat... we have to smudge that line by Wesley to mean - I guess - the Khitomer accords and the subsequent peace treaty of which Curzon Dax played a major part. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Sol System</b> <br /><small>Member # 30</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,0,1,3,30,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">January 01, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">03:30 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> It seems obvious that the Federation fought a cold war with the Klingons for a healthy portion of its existance, with occasional flareups here and there along the border. Surely that counts. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Ryan McReynolds</b> <br /><small>Member # 28</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,0,1,7,40,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">January 01, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">07:40 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> In "The Emissary," the <i>T'Ong</i> originated when the Federation and Klingons were "at war," some seventy-five years ago. This would seem to indicate that there was a Klingon War arund 2290, perhaps explaining the transition of the <i>Enterprise</i> interiors from happy-beige and light in <i>The Final Frontier</i> to military-gray and dark in <i>The Undiscovered Country</i>. If the <i>Enterprise</i> saw a lot of combat, a war would also explain its early retirement. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>PsyLiam</b> <br /><small>Member # 73</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,0,1,14,17,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">January 01, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">02:17 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> There's quite a few places that say that UFP/Klingon relations deteriorated quite badly in the 2290s, from the almost tollerating relationships they had the couple of decades before that.<br /><br />The definition of war is a bit vague though. For Americans, "war" can mean anything from "big fight with huge armies" to "attacking a hopelessly outclassed enemy with big bombs" to "kicking someone in the shins". <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>CaptainMike</b> <br /><small>Member # 709</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,0,1,15,2,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">January 01, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">03:02 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> What? This means war Liam!<br /><br />*kicks him in shins* <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>The Mighty Monkey of Mim</b> <br /><small>Member # 646</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,0,1,17,33,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">January 01, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">05:33 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> The UFP and Klingon Empire were involved in an extended war up until the latter part of first season TOS ("Errand of Mercy") at which point the Organian Peace Treaty was imposed on both sides, putting an 'official' end to the military conflict. Of course, it was not enforced and a strong hostility remained between the two powers, leading to a number of incidents such as those seen in "Friday's Child" (TOS), "The Trouble With Tribbles" (TOS), "A Private Little War" (TOS), "Elaan of Troyius" (TOS), "Day of the Dove" (TOS), "More Tribbles, More Troubles" (TAS), and "The Time Trap" (TAS). <br /><br />Starfleet had sensor drones spying on (or <i>observing</i>, if you prefer) the Klingons at the time of TMP. Klingons were the enemy depicted in SF combat training simulations, as per TWOK. And of course, all the way through the next four movies (up until the end of TUC) there were intense diplomatic tensions and several incidents of actual military agressions.<br /><br />Things have not been pretty.<br /><br />-MMoM <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>CaptainMike</b> <br /><small>Member # 709</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,0,1,18,6,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">January 01, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">06:06 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> There are different kinds of wars.. in TUC Spock says '70 years of hostilities' meaning that since the 2220s there had been battle with the Klingons. We know for a fact that declarations of war didnt seem to be present, meaning this wasnt an 'official' 'everybody line up on either sides of the line and shoot at each other' type of war, but instead a series of conflicts, aggressions incidents and skirmishes which never provoked a full-scale invasion of either side into the other, judging by the fact that the status quo was maintained for so long. And do i remember Sulu saying in Errand of Mercy that word had come down from SF that there was a.. declaration of war? im not sure, but that might be a war with the Klingons that Riker can go on to speak of.. anywho.. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>MinutiaeMan</b> <br /><small>Member # 444</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,0,2,9,14,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">January 02, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">09:14 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Right, there was an outright war in "Errand of Mercy." (2266) It was unfortunately too short, thanks to the Organians. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Malnurtured Snay</b> <br /><small>Member # 411</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,0,2,9,21,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">January 02, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">09:21 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It was unfortunately too short</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><br /><br />Darn things should drag on for at least four or five years. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Siegfried</b> <br /><small>Member # 29</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,0,2,9,34,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">January 02, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">09:34 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Well, war is good for business, afterall... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>CaptainMike</b> <br /><small>Member # 709</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,0,2,11,30,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">January 02, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">11:30 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I knew you were a Ferengi <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Omega</b> <br /><small>Member # 91</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,0,2,11,35,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">January 02, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">11:35 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> OK, so there WAS a war that lasted ten minutes, in which no one died. Riker referenced the large number of casualties in the war. Still no explaination... <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>CaptainMike</b> <br /><small>Member # 709</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,0,2,11,42,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">January 02, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">11:42 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Um.. there is an explanation. There was another war.. between the Federation and the Klingons.. there were casualties...<br /><br />this doesnt seem so far-fetched <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>The Mighty Monkey of Mim</b> <br /><small>Member # 646</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,0,2,13,4,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">January 02, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">01:04 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Besides, when somebody says 'a war' it doesn't necessarily mean there was a <i>declaration</i> of war. The Vietnam, Korean, and Gulf Wars were all undeclared. And just look at what's been going on in Afghanistan!<br /><br />-MMoM <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /><br /> <br /> [ January 02, 2002: Message edited by: The Mighty Monkey of Mim ] <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>David Templar</b> <br /><small>Member # 580</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,0,2,16,7,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">January 02, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">04:07 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim:<br /><strong>Besides, when somebody says 'a war' it doesn't necessarily mean there was a <i>declaration</i> of war. The Vietnam, Korean, and Gulf Wars were all undeclared. And just look at what's been going on in Afghanistan!<br /></strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><br /><br />Now that's unfair, those were totally justified 'police actions'. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" /> Can't have those liberty-hating Commies get the best of us, can we? <br /><br />That's right, the Klingons are all card-carrying Commies. If you put one on a Federation planet, they would choked on the sweet air of freedom. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>The Antagonist</b> <br /><small>Member # 484</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,0,3,5,59,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">January 03, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">05:59 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> These days the difference between 'police actions' and 'war' are very muddled. God forbid that a nation formally declare war on one of it's wordly (or cosmically if you prefer) neighbors fearing that honesty of one's actions will put you between a political rock and a social hard place. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" /> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>PsyLiam</b> <br /><small>Member # 73</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,0,3,19,16,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">January 03, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">07:16 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I am officially declaring war on Jeff. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>CaptainMike</b> <br /><small>Member # 709</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,0,3,19,41,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">January 03, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">07:41 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> *psst .. kick him in the shins <br /> </font> </td></tr> </table></td></tr></table> <br /> <br />
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