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Frank's Home Page
"I'm still amazed at how unintuitive the Windows world is and how it tries to mimic the Mac." - John de Lancie
-FTM
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funniest TV quote.....
"A small penis is a clean penis"
-Matt Real World Hawaii
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Kirk-"Mr. Sulu, ahead Warp 1."
Navigator-"Heading, Sir?"
Kirk-"Out there...somewhere...out thatta-way."--Star Trek: TMP
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Calvin: "I'm killing time while I wait for life to shower me with meaning and happiness"
Hobbes: "I hope you're comfy."
Federation Starship Datalink - Starship site of the new millennium.
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funniest TV quote.....
"A small penis is a clean penis"
-Matt Real World Hawaii
Janeway and her holo-character boy-toy were in a scene where they dance, similar to what Leo DiCaprio and
Kate Winslet were in "Titanic."
Janeway is out of makeup...someone please call the makeup department.
A holo-character hits on Seven of Nine, and gets her.
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Show me the meaning of being lonely
Is this the feeling, I need to walk in
Tell me why I can't be there where you are
There's something missing in my heart
-Backstreet Boys
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"The Earl of Sandwich invented the sandwich. Samuel Morse invented the Morse Code. Plato invented the plate."
-Holly, Red Dwarf: "Parallel Universe"
-FTM
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funniest TV quote.....
"A small penis is a clean penis"
-Matt Real World Hawaii
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"All the lonely people, where do they all come from" - Eleanor Rigby, The Beatles.
From what I hear, the episode indeed was a sort of "Fair Haven" for Voyager, without mortal threats in sight. The crew could certainly use more of these lulls. I always wondered when Sam Beckett managed to sleep since he couldn't do it between the episodes...
Timo Saloniemi
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Frank's Home Page
"I'm still amazed at how unintuitive the Windows world is and how it tries to mimic the Mac." - John de Lancie
-FTM
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funniest TV quote.....
"A small penis is a clean penis"
-Matt Real World Hawaii
Janeway told Sullivan that her aunt came from somewhere called Canticlair (Chanticleer?), so he started calling her Katie O'Clair.
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--Then, said Cranly, do you not intend to become a protestant?
--I said that I had lost the faith, Stephen answered, but not that I had lost self-respect. What kind of liberation would that be to forsake an absurdity which is logical and coherent and to embrace one which is illogical and incoherent?
James Joyce, A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man.
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All hands, abandon ship! All hand, abandon...
BOOM!
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Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue")
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Death before Dishonor!
However Dishonor has
quite a disputed defintion.
I haven't seen this ep, but I can tell you Janeway was probably saying "County Clare".
West coast, NW of Limerick and the Shannon.
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The above post was mulled-over, composed, and posted during time Tom would have better spent on his plethora of homework and homework-related exercises. Now don't you feel special?
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Frank's Home Page
"I'm still amazed at how unintuitive the Windows world is and how it tries to mimic the Mac." - John de Lancie
In the trailer they mentioned the Bermuda triangle... well.. I don't see the connection..
But it wasn't all that bad! - but... not one of the best either. I think that Kate Mulgrew looked great in this ep, tho'.. for once, she actually looked like a woman .. I loved her in that dress.
Harry with that hat, tho'.. he looked a little out of place.
I found the relationship with Sullivan a little weak ... They made 3 days pass so quickly, you didn't see the relationship flourish ... It seemed like they took a good story, and shrunk it down to meet the time-line! They should have had a better mix scifi and Irish History in this ep... Focus a little more on the storm.. make it more threatening, with the Fair Haven part as a good sub-plot...
This could have been a much better episode as a two-parter.
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I feel more like I do now, then when I first got here!!
- Alshrim Dax
The Other Dax;
[This message has been edited by Alshrim Dax (edited January 13, 2000).]
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funniest TV quote.....
"A small penis is a clean penis"
-Matt Real World Hawaii
The next ep will be about something totally different, I'm sure (I should really go check that out). What I meant was that they should have focused a little bit more on the storm or something ... to keep us MAN-APES occupied during the romance story. 
(That for Tora - )
No but seriously.. Supposedly, this storm was doozy of a storm .. able to cripple ships ... it couldn't have been too threatening..cuz everyone was off to Fair Haven.
I dunno... I just feel that it could've been a little better ... could've been worst tho'.
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I feel more like I do now, then when I first got here!! :)
- Alshrim Dax
The Other Dax;
So clearly Janeway enjoying and partaking in a Period Irish holodeck program is nice continuity... If it was say... an ancient Vulcan program you'd just go wah?
Tora:- I didn't see the episode - will have to wait about 7 months - but it sounds like she said County Clare - a region/county in Ireland - and going aways back Surnames were derived from what village or place you came from or your occupation... O'Clare is basically "Of Clare".
NICE continuity Voyager - Keep it up.
*mumbles* people complain about no continuity - but then they get some and the complain... *mumbling trails off*
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"All the lonely people, where do they all come from" - Eleanor Rigby, The Beatles.
"Continuity" would involve Janeway showing further evidence of her insanity and so on, because we've seen stuff like that in the past (like with executing the Equinox crewmember). But, no, instead we're getting stories about Ireland. I hate Voyager. My favorite scene is the one in "Barge of the Dead" when the entire crew gets slaughtered.
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Frank's Home Page
"I'm still amazed at how unintuitive the Windows world is and how it tries to mimic the Mac." - John de Lancie
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Ruff Ryders' first space Hero
And the new owner of the 'Homeboyz in Outerspace' Hooptie
I've solved the problem with Voyager!
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Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue")
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"I'm not feeling alright today, I'm not feeling that great"
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Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue")
The thing is, the writers said "Hm... Janeway has an ancestor w/ an Irish name. She must know anything and everything about Ireland." I have Irish ancestors who are only five generations back, and I don't know anything about Ireland. Why should Janeway?
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"The Earl of Sandwich invented the sandwich. Samuel Morse invented the Morse Code. Plato invented the plate."
-Holly, Red Dwarf: "Parallel Universe"
F'r instance, yesterday I discovered DE-139, Destroyer Escort USS Farquhar, launched Feb 13, 1944. Named for a relative of mine who sailed ships for the Union during the civil war and eventually rose to the rank of Rear Admiral.
The Farquhar sank the last German sub of the war during WWII.
(I also found the USS Capps.. but that's another story)
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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson
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Frank's Home Page
"I'm still amazed at how unintuitive the Windows world is and how it tries to mimic the Mac." - John de Lancie
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Frank's Home Page
"I'm still amazed at how unintuitive the Windows world is and how it tries to mimic the Mac." - John de Lancie
Well it looks like we havent seen the last of Fair Haven they will be coming back in "Spirt Folk" an episode which is scheduled to air on Feb 28, geez I hope they dont mmake this a reacurring theme.
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"Marge .. Do you have other men in this House ? .. Radioactive men?"
~Homer "The Simpsons"
http://www.geocities.com/travlyn2/
[This message has been edited by Dhunter (edited January 15, 2000).]
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"The Earl of Sandwich invented the sandwich. Samuel Morse invented the Morse Code. Plato invented the plate."
-Holly, Red Dwarf: "Parallel Universe"
Firstly - a side note - her thorough search on her relatives in 11:59 might have sparked an intrest in Irish heratige...
Secondly - Remember her period Holonovel that she enjoyed in season 1!?! I mean it wasn't Irish - but It was set around the same time...
how soon we forget.
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"All the lonely people, where do they all come from" - Eleanor Rigby, The Beatles.
As for Janeway's alleged detailed knowledge of Ireland, I didn't see any evidence. She claimed to be interested in Irish history. That was about it, as far as I know.
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"20th Century, go to sleep."
--
R.E.M.
1) Well, technically, the ancestor in "11:59" was American, not Irish.
2) Yes, so?
Again, for the Irish history thing to have any relevance, we would have had to see it before. You can't just "tack on" character aspects, or else the character isn't the same one.
Sol:
The harp thing was a very specific detail.
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Frank's Home Page
"I'm still amazed at how unintuitive the Windows world is and how it tries to mimic the Mac." - John de Lancie
It was only Jeri Taylor that tried to give any character on Voyager some substance and the only outlet she had was books.
We should just count Voyager as starting from Season 4
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"All the lonely people, where do they all come from" - Eleanor Rigby, The Beatles.
How quickly we come to conclusions based on one comment.
Oh, and Neelix never once mentioned himself experiencing storms on Talax, let alone during his childhood. He said, "We had some nasty storms on Talax, too." IIRC. This implies many possible things: 1) There was a lack of storms on Rinax. 2) Neelix, like most people, will speak casually. ("We had some nasty storms last year in Ontario" might be something I'd say, actually, despite me not living there.) 3) It may be an error, but not a major one by far.
"Oh, by the way Mr. Paris, I think the ancient Irish only had two arms per torso."
"D'oh!"
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"20th Century, go to sleep."
--
R.E.M.
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Frank's Home Page
"I'm still amazed at how unintuitive the Windows world is and how it tries to mimic the Mac." - John de Lancie
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--Then, said Cranly, do you not intend to become a protestant?
--I said that I had lost the faith, Stephen answered, but not that I had lost self-respect. What kind of liberation would that be to forsake an absurdity which is logical and coherent and to embrace one which is illogical and incoherent?
James Joyce, A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man.
Look, harps have definite fronts and backs. When viewed from the back, a harp would look backwords.
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"20th Century, go to sleep."
--
R.E.M.
Ziyal: Agreed!
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Frank's Home Page
"I'm still amazed at how unintuitive the Windows world is and how it tries to mimic the Mac." - John de Lancie
And who says that anything has to be established about a character from day one and then nothing can ever be divulged about them again? Whose to say that Janeway has become interested in Irish culture since her experience in "11:59." Sometimes, traits develop. You aren't born with an exact personality that is yours forever, never to be augmented by other things. So what if she hasn't shown interest before. Has Ireland ever come up before? I really don't think Janeway would have been discussing something like that in a "Year of Hell" situation, because in that instance it wasn't relevant. In fact, this is probably the first such episode in which such an interest would have been shown because this is the first dealing with Ireland.
It's like Star Trek. Before you watch it regularly, you know little information other than Kirk, Enterprise, and "Beam me up, Scotty." But, after watching regularly for a while, most of us are quite fluent in canon material. Your knowledge of a subject grows as you become more interested in it. I would suggest Janeway began to study her history more after "11:59," and has since become fluent in it.
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"Questions, comments, bring them to me. Problems, take them to Kinis."
It was a character piece for Janeway, with Paris, Chakotay, and the Doc sprinkled in. That's a good kind of episode; you said so yourself once, IIRC.
"Well, Shadow, considering you hate the show anyway and only enjoy watching the whole crew die, I don't really think your opinion about what Voyager should be about has any relevance to this discussion, because you'd probably find something wrong with it no matter what."
I hate the show because of episodes like this.
"And who says that anything has to be established about a character from day one and then nothing can ever be divulged about them again?"
Reality. If people have any major character aspects, they're going to show up in some form or other before five or six years down the line. It's obvious that the writers threw in the Irish interest stuff because they wanted to do this episode, not because it has any relevance to the characters. Watch Ireland never be mentioned again except in episodes involving this holodeck program.
"Whose to say that Janeway has become interested in Irish culture since her experience in '11:59.'"
Why would she be? I don't see what that episode has to do with anything.
Elim:
"Frank, what does it matter if the episode isn't about making progress towards home (or not doing so)? That's the kind of episode most people always gripe about, anyway."
Probably because the actual premise of the series really wasn't a good choice for such a long series.
"It was a character piece for Janeway, with Paris, Chakotay, and the Doc sprinkled in. That's a good kind of episode; you said so yourself once, IIRC."
But, it has no relevance to those characters, or anything else.
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Frank's Home Page
"I'm still amazed at how unintuitive the Windows world is and how it tries to mimic the Mac." - John de Lancie
[This message has been edited by The Shadow (edited January 17, 2000).]
quote:
"Frank, what does it matter if the episode isn't about making progress towards home (or not doing so)? That's the kind of episode most people always gripe about, anyway."Probably because the actual premise of the series really wasn't a good choice for such a long series.
Frank, you're talking yourself in circles.
You hate the series because of the premise, but only because of these types of episodes?
quote:
But, it has no relevance to those characters, or anything else.
How do you know that? This is designed to be a long-term relationship, IIRC.
And no, Ireland probably won't get mentioned again except for episodes in which Fair Haven appears; however, there still remains that question of relevance. Janeway's just not going to say, "Oh, and by the way, did you know that Ireland, blah, blah, blah..." while her ship is getting blown to bits or one of her crew is in danger or something of that nature. Things have to be taken in the context in which they are given.
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"Questions, comments, bring them to me. Problems, take them to Kinis."
"You hate the series because of the premise, but only because of these types of episodes?"
No, because the fact that they even make these kinds of episodes indicates the premise is flawed.
"How do you know that? This is designed to be a long-term relationship, IIRC."
Right. A long-term relationship with a holo-character. Didn't they try that in the first season or something?
5748:
"In reference to '11:59,' I meant that since maybe Janeway was disappointed in Shannon O'Donnel, she decided to explore her history a little bit more, find something that in her mind she could be genuinely proud of, who knows? With that whole 'Ancestor's Eve' thing, it may have inspired her."
How do we know if her ancestors were really significantly connected with Ireland, though?
"And no, Ireland probably won't get mentioned again except for episodes in which Fair Haven appears; however, there still remains that question of relevance. Janeway's just not going to say, 'Oh, and by the way, did you know that Ireland, blah, blah, blah...' while her ship is getting blown to bits or one of her crew is in danger or something of that nature. Things have to be taken in the context in which they are given."
There have been plenty of opportunities to mention any interest in Ireland. TSN mentioned Picard's interest in archaeology, Sisko's interest in baseball, etc. Those were all important aspects of their characters.
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Frank's Home Page
"I can't remember stuff." - John Linnell
quote:
No, because the fact that they even make these kinds of episodes indicates the premise is flawed.
Therefore DS9's premise/shifting premises were also flawed?
quote:
Right. A long-term relationship with a holo-character. Didn't they try that in the first season or something?
Leonardo da Vinci was the closest Trek has ever come to this.
As for you saying it could have come up before, it is possible, but not likely, and definitely not comparable to Picard's interest in archaeology. Archaeology is a broad science that can applied to many different situations. It was inevitable an archaeological situation would occur in Star Trek. However, Irish history does one little good while in the Delta Quadrant, except for maybe a comparison. And how many times have we heard the crew say "You know, this new D.Q. species reminds of Ireland (or whatever place or thing)? Not many.
And even you own example with DS9/Sisko/baseball is flawed. Take "Take Me Out to the Holosuite," for example. That episode doesn't have a whole heck of a lot to do with the Dominion War, but yet it's in there and you don't seem to mind. So what's the difference between these two episodes? "Fair Haven" simply established Janeway's interest, which we will likely see again in "Spirit Folk," whereas "TMOttH" added to what we knew about Sisko/baseball. "Spirit Folk" later on will probably do the same thing for "Fair Haven."
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"Questions, comments, bring them to me. Problems, take them to Kinis."
[This message has been edited by Individual 5748 (edited January 17, 2000).]
"Therefore DS9's premise/shifting premises were also flawed?"
If they want to bring Voyager home and make it a show about Ireland, they're free to do so.
"Leonardo da Vinci was the closest Trek has ever come to this."
Janeway was playing a character in a 19th-century thing early on.
5739:
"We might not have heard any definitive evidence to suggest that Janeway had Irish origins, but the name O'Donnel surely doesn't come from, say, India. And even if we were to go with Janeway, which I believe is an Irish name,"
"11:59" showed that the ancestors the names came from lived in the US. For all we know it was their great-grandfathers who were Irish, and nothing more.
"And even you own example with DS9/Sisko/baseball is flawed. Take "Take Me Out to the Holosuite," for example. That episode doesn't have a whole heck of a lot to do with the Dominion War, but yet it's in there and you don't seem to mind."
I mind, but we had a multi-episode war arc later in that season to make up for it.
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Frank's Home Page
"I can't remember stuff." - John Linnell
[This message has been edited by The Shadow (edited January 17, 2000).]
And you didn't address the thing about DS9 using episodes not related to its premise, therefore making that premise flawed, too.
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Frank's Home Page
"I can't remember stuff." - John Linnell
You don't need arcs in episodic television.
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Frank's Home Page
"I can't remember stuff." - John Linnell
My point is, Frank, that what you seem to want out of your entertainment isn't all that common. That isn't to say it's bad. I mean, I want to read stories about campy future heroes saving planets from oddly named conquerors. But I have to write them myself. But what you seem to be looking for, that is, a story that has a single thrusting point and sticks to it, isn't going to be found on television. I'd suggest getting more into novels.
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"20th Century, go to sleep."
--
R.E.M.
Yes it is; it's called Babylon 5.
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Frank's Home Page
"I can't remember stuff." - John Linnell
Some of us, you know, hide ourselves from the outside world, unless we're extremely comfortable with the people we're with. Some of us wear masks upon masks.
I've posted here for quite some time now, have I ever mentioned my interest in archery? No? It never came up.
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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson
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Fool of a Took, throw yourself in next time!!
Gandalf
The point is, it's called episodic television for a reason, and beating the dead horse over something that has been established for decades is rather useless.
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Frank's Home Page
"I can't remember stuff." - John Linnell
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"20th Century, go to sleep."
--
R.E.M.
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Frank's Home Page
"I can't remember stuff." - John Linnell
The point isn't that it's impossible for Janeway to have been an Ireland expert and we never saw it. The point is that the writers made it up on a whim as a dumb plot device. It's just like the Nova class starship. There's no reason that the name couldn't have been stolen off the post-Galaxy project. But the writers didn't even think about consistency. They just do whatever they want, whether it makes sense or not. It's the principle of the thing.
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"If you attempt to return the device to the store, and you are missing one single peanut, the store personnel will laugh in the chilling manner exhibited by Joseph Stalin just after he enslaved Eastern Europe."
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"Questions, comments, bring them to me. Problems, take them to Kinis."
Please. That was only canon by the loosest possible sense. (How many times did the ISS's name change before we even put a piece of it into space? Freedom? Alpha? Wasn't the Space Shuttle Enterprise originally to be called the Constitution? Does that mean that any ship made afterwards could not be named Constitution, because that was the name on the old plans?)
I mean, all the book really said was:
"Someday, Starfleet may build a new class of ship, and we currently call this conjectural plan 'Nova.'"
Somebody should tell them they ripped off a Chevy model name.
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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson
And the TNGTM is not a novel. It was written to get a bunch of info together in one source, so that the writers wouldn't call the warp core "the big glowie thing in engineering". It was supposed to keep things consistent. Hell of a lot of good it did, apparently...
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"If you attempt to return the device to the store, and you are missing one single peanut, the store personnel will laugh in the chilling manner exhibited by Joseph Stalin just after he enslaved Eastern Europe."
Law & Order.
Northern Exposure.
Homicide.
The Twilight Zone.
The X-Files.
Twin Peaks.
And many others.
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"20th Century, go to sleep."
--
R.E.M.
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Frank's Home Page
"I can't remember stuff." - John Linnell
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"Questions, comments, bring them to me. Problems, take them to Kinis."
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Frank's Home Page
"I can't remember stuff." - John Linnell
*fripp, fripp...*
Well, whaddaya know...
MY copy isn't carved in stone...
Yes, I know what the TM is for real... and in the fictional universe... and you know what? both those things change. The directions people decide to take change. LIFE changes. There's no reason to be upset at the writers for this (hell, the writers have changed, too!)
I suppose it's a good thing the future is fluid.. time travel episodes would be a lot less fun if it wasn't.
*Looks at some of the old space shuttle designs from the tech manuals back a few decades before they built one.*
Doesn't look much like the modern one, does it?
How can you hold fiction to higher standards than real life?
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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson
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"Questions, comments, bring them to me. Problems, take them to Kinis."
"What should we call the ship?"
"Hm... 'Nova' is a nice name..."
"Y'know, it seems like that one's been used somewhere..."
"Oh, who cares? Just use it hand let the <contempt=dripping>fans</contempt> figure it out if they don't like it..."
I'm not saying that this one incident is a particular problem. But it's a symptom of a larger problem, that being the fact that the people in charge really don't seem to care much about making a TV show. They just want to make money.
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"Voyager is not true. If it were true, the ship would not look spick-and-span every week, after all these battles it goes through. How many times has the bridge been destroyed? How many shuttlecrafts have vanished, and another one just comes out of the oven? That kind of bullshitting the audience I think takes its toll."
-Ronald D. Moore
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"Questions, comments, bring them to me. Problems, take them to Kinis."
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Col. Maybourne: "Teal'c... It's good to see you well."
Teal'c: "In my culture, I would be well within my rights to dismember you."
-Stargate SG-1: "Touchstone"
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Fool of a Took, throw yourself in next time!!
Gandalf
[This message has been edited by Kosh (edited January 28, 2000).]
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"20th Century, go to sleep."
--
R.E.M.
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Col. Maybourne: "Teal'c... It's good to see you well."
Teal'c: "In my culture, I would be well within my rights to dismember you."
-Stargate SG-1: "Touchstone"
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"20th Century, go to sleep."
--
R.E.M.
I'm the only one allowed to bash mah nahive lahnd.
*gets hitting stick, walks outside and starts walloping the tarmac*
>>Diverting main power to Off-Topic Mode<
I've been up since 4.20am in order to queue for a J1 visa so's I can work in the Dark Side of the Gene Pool, ie the US (Boston specifically).
Anyone know what the job prospects are like for foreign students around the Northside of yer east coast?
Oh, and do any websites exist that actually advertise jobs that don't require
a)citizenship, and
b)a two-year contract? AAAAA, as you all well know.
>>Deactivating Off-Topic Mode<<
From a few pics I saw in ST Monthly, they got the costuming terribly wrong for Kim + Paris, but two of the shop-signs I saw, 'Failte' (Welcome) and 'Buisteara' (Butchers) were right, IIRC.
Oh, and Tom: you were right back on page1 - she probably did say County Clare. Only thing is, O'Donnell is an Ulster name, and Clare is in the arse-end of the country, down in Munster.
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Devil: Oh look at the time! I'm late for services.
Stone: Services?
Devil: A group of young teenagers that have been celebrating the Black Sabbath are planning on deep-sixing their gym teacher tonight. I'm gonna go and give them a little encouragement.
Brimstone. May it rest in syndication.
[This message has been edited by Gaseous Anomaly (edited February 01, 2000).]