Flare Sci-Fi Forums: Some observations about the 29th century

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Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :

Just rewatched "Relativity," and made a few observations.

First, the span of time: The Relativity and her crew are supposed to be from 500 years in Janeway's future. Now, 500 years is a long time. A lot of things can happen in 500 years. (I could ramble on about this, but instead I'll make my point here.) However, we are shown a Starfleet crew that bears a remarkable resemblance to the contemporary crew of the 24th century. The uniforms are markedly similar in departmental colors & styles, the ranking insignia is the same, the crew is made up almost entirely of humans or aliens which look exactly like humans, etc. Apart from the fact that Starfleet now uses timeships instead of starships, there is nary a difference between the two eras. How believable is this?

There was one marked difference I found, though. When Braxton gets hit by a 24th century phaser, aside from grunting and stepping back a few feet, the beam has no real affect on him. And the beam does hit him; it's not like he had a personal force field or something. Have humans evolved over the past 500 years to the point where phaser blasts can't harm them?

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Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Perhaps something with the resistance of flesh. Arturis handled the phaserblast pretty well too, in "Hope and Fear.

I don't think all ships of 29th century UFP are timeships, but they've added it to the inventory, yes.

You'd think they'd changed fashion, but perhaps the most efficient dresscodes for the navy/spaceforce were established already in the early 2200's. Or it could be the leaders and admirals of 2800 are really conservative and grumpy, and the next voy-ep about the 2800's will be the great garment-insurrection!!

I need a drink.

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Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :

*L*

Well, Arturis was an alien, so he really doesn't count...

My point was that the depiction of Starfleet and the Federation changed very little in five centuries. How stupid would the Armed Forces look if they were to wear uniforms from 1776, when the U.S. was founded? And that was only 225 years ago, not 500!

The only theory I can come up with is the "Time Lord" theory. In Doctor Who, it was stated that once the Gallifreyans discovered time travel and became the Time Lords, their society stagnated because of it. Maybe Starfleet discovers time travel only a relatively short time after the 24th century, and the same thing happens.

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :

The easy answer is that Voyager feels its fans are incredibly stupid and unless they didn't make it familiar we wouldn't recognize it.

Unless it's of course that Admiral Roddenberry's doing. Afterall, he's been Chief of Staff for about a century now?

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Posted by The Talented Mr. Gurgeh (Member # 318) on :

The writers made a mistake putting it 500 years in the future. Anyway, there just wouldn't be enough scope in one episode to convey the difference of the two times.

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Posted by DARKSTAR on :

29th Century Federation-Observations
Federation's size:Twice as big as current Federation.
Fleet Size:Twice the size of current fleet.
Romulans & Klingons:??? Members of Federation?????
Warp speeds:Speeds higher then Warp 9.982 now possible and ships now capable of Warp 9.99999
Borg: Seem to have been defeated by this time
Cardassians: ??? Members of Federation???
Dominion: ??? Members of Federation???
Explored space size:Up to 30,000 light years from Earth
Breen:??? Members of Federation???
Ferengi:??? Members of Federation???

Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :

Federation's size:Twice as big as current Federation.

Evidence for this?

Fleet Size:Twice the size of current fleet.

Evidence for this?

Romulans & Klingons:??? Members of Federation?????

Evidence for this?

Warp speeds:Speeds higher then Warp 9.982 now possible and ships now capable of Warp 9.99999

Evidence for this?

Borg: Seem to have been defeated by this time

Evidence for this?

Cardassians: ??? Members of Federation???

Evidence for this?

Dominion: ??? Members of Federation???

Evidence for this?

Explored space size:Up to 30,000 light years from Earth

Evidence for this?

Breen:??? Members of Federation???

Evidence for this?

Ferengi:??? Members of Federation???

Evidence for this?

This shouldn't have been titled 'Observations', it's much to speculative. Label it as such.

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Irony ensues.

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[This message has been edited by Ultra Magnus (edited January 20, 2001).]

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

*ROFLMGDSFAO*

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Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :

You do realise of course that more than half of those points were enclosed by school-girl style question marks.
You're probably a bit too trigger happy UM ....

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[This message has been edited by Mucus (edited January 20, 2001).]

Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :

quote:
The easy answer is that Voyager feels its fans are incredibly stupid and unless they didn't make it familiar we wouldn't recognize it.

More evidence of this was when Starfleet Command was shown to be in pristine condition in "Pathfinder" even though it had been totally blown away by the Breen not long before in DS9. I read in the Magazine that TPTB decided not to go with the DS9 continuity because they thought people who didn't watch DS9 wouldn't understand what happened.

First of all, I'm pretty sure that people who watch one Star Trek show most likely watch others. Also, mention was already made of the Dominion and the war in Voyager several times. And finally, I doubt that the buildings, even if they were rebuilt in a very short period of time, would look EXACTLY the same.

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Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :

Unless that building wasn't in San Francisco. Was it ever stated that it was? Considering they used the John Hancock Tower in Chicago as the basis, maybe it's there...or even that building, modified.

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Posted by Teelie (Member # 280) on :

That's bullshit. "They watch Voyager or DS9, not both. We'll fuck continuity up more on Voyager by saying DS9 didn't happen."
I really think TPTB need to be fired and new ones hired.

I watch all 4 series. I know several people who watch both DS9 and Voyager.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

I second that motion. Lets pass out baseball bats, fly to California, and oust them ourselves.

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Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

I agree that the sad truth is that the ep was set WAY to far into the future. It's so far ahead that it's hard to relate anything.

The Relativity timeline probably should've only been set 100 years or so in the future. Close enough to Voyager's time that the ship and crew might still be having some residual effects.

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Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

I fail to see why extrapolating 375 years from now is OK, while extrapolating another 450 to 500 years from then isn't. The whole point of the show is that humanity isn't going to change much over the next few centuries.

I didn't find the Relativity-era Starfleet to be that related to Voyager-era. Different uniforms, different rank insignia, different ship decor. . . the return to pistol-shaped hand-weapons. . . and some unknown alien race as part of the crew (although wasn't it actually one of the aliens from "Waking Moments?").

- Dogbert

Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :

Shik: It was in San Francisco. You can see the Golden Gate Bridge in the background.

Vogon: The 29th century may have seemed different enough to you, but it looked very similar to the 24th century to me. About that alien crewmember: That was my whole point - a crew made up entirely of humans, with only one alien. Remind you of anything? Like the TOS crew? I would think that by the 29th century, a Starfleet crew would be so integrated with aliens from all over the galaxy that humans would make up only a small percentage.

Actually, that should have been the case for a 24th century crew...

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :

I see what you mean. IIRC I read something that when an alien world joins the Federation it's military is integrated with Starfleet. Say for example Bajor finally joins the Federation, the Bajoran Militia would become Starfleet.

I assume they would have to go to some sort of training to learn Starfleet protocol. Although I could be completely wrong, but I'm not sure anyway.

Regardless, with over a 150 member worlds there should be more aliens in Starfleet. But for the same reason everyone speaks English, it's a lot cheaper to have human crews than making a lot of different alien prosthetics and makeup.

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Posted by Black Knight (Member # 134) on :

There's also the possibility that only the time-traveling people use those uniforms in order not to shock the older crews that much, or to throw them off as to what happens in the future.

As for the aliens, it could be possible that Humans have a higher tolerance for time travel than others.

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Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

I've gotta agree with Vogon. There's a century between TOS and TNG, and how much of it is different? We've got slightly shinier control panels, and a holodeck. Big whoop.

Braxton resisting a phaser was weird though. The "humans have evolved" thing doesn't work. Humans have, by and large, stopped evolving. And they certainly wouldn't have evolved in 500 to develop resistence to phasers (if they had, don't you think people would have "evolved" a resistence to arrows during the middle ages, hmm?).

About the uniforms. How'd you know that they weren't completely different in the 500 years between the times, and they just went back to the older style? Look at TOS and TNG. If you hadn't seen the movies, you'd think that the uniforms were almost completly unchanged (apart from a small case of colour blindness).

Finally, one of the whole points of the LCARS interface is that it processes very complex information, yet displays it very simply. Presumably, that's what the 29th century displays are going for. The computers are hidiously more powerful, but they don't overload the person with information.

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Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :

Then how do you explain the future Bashir's statement about three-dimensional control panels being the norm in the 25th century, but that we see standard 2D panels on the Relativity?

I can probably forgive the uniform & ranking issue, but I still think there should have been way more aliens than humans aboard the Relativity. To me, Azetbur's comment in the 23rd century that Starfleet was a Homo Sapiens-only club was not only correct, but that it stayed that way for 600 years after she said it!

quote:
There's also the possibility that only the time-traveling people use those uniforms in order not to shock the older crews that much, or to throw them off as to what happens in the future.

Good idea, but why would they need to worry about this if they can wipe the minds of the older crews before sending them back to their original time?

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[This message has been edited by Dukhat (edited January 25, 2001).]

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

I'm leaning toward the "can't let people of the past have info about the future" explaination. Perhaps they sometimes encounter aliens that don't respond to their memory wipe. Perhaps sometimes people take some sort of treatment to prevent the wipe from taking. It's another layer of protection. This would also explain the whole 3-D panel thing. Now the future in "All Good Things..." having 2-D panels, I can't explain.

As for the aliens, if someone from the past saw a Jem'Hadar crewman aboard a 29th century Federation vessel, they'd gather info about the future political situation by that one single act. I think the timeships are manned by whatever species the target can see without contaminating the timeline.

Make the future things seen by the traveler as much like he remembers as possible, the better to prevent him from gathering information.

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Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

I can't believe I'm saying this ...

But I agree 100% with Omega.

Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :

It's the end of the world as we know it....
or
The Second Coming is near.....

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Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

I know, kids. I'm scared, too. 8)

- Dogbert

Posted by letsalope on :

i would say that the phaser didn't affect him because
he had that time cykosis(i hope that is the right spelling)
or what ever it was. just like how a person who has mental illness can take a much higher pain tolerance

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

Psychosis.

And IIRC, a phaser causes a feedback in your nervous system. I'm not sure how pain threshhold would apply to that.

Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :

Could he be slightly out of phase, so the phaser can' do him harm??

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Posted by letsalope on :

i agree with black knight, that the uniforms of the later era's wouldn't register with the earlyer crews.
so they would replicate different uniforms for different eras like in the ds9 episode the trouble with tribbles,where they changed uniforms to find kirks potential killer.as for a human dominated crew
you would proberbly find that humans take care of the human timeline and interest,as volcans would take care of there timeline and interest,overseen by a federation council.

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

Assuming the Federation even exists. For all we know, that may have been another part of the deception, in order to prevent future shock. Heck, the Founders could have taken over the universe, and simply impersonate different species on their temporal jaunts.