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Posted by USS Vanguard (Member # 130) on :

If you thoroughly enjoy watching Voyager each week, then this isn't a question for you.

What went wrong with Voyager? it had such a promising beginning with Caretaker. now here's a new series that will really take the franchise into a new a wild direction. I mean come on, the Delta Quadrant, the Borg, this is going to be sweet.

But Voyager never seemed to really do what i thought it could do? why? personally i think its Janeway, I mean a female captain is a pretty nice idea, but damn it man, she has such an irritating voice. Couldn't they find anyone else?

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"You put the geeks on the left and the stalkers on the right and you run for daylight up the middle"
- William Shatner, discussing a Star Trek Convention on EW-

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

I just lost interest.

I would watch "DS9" and "VOY" regularly ... up until the episode when Seska turned traitor, I think was when I stopped watching VOYAGER. I guess when it came down to it, I only really had the time to watch one Star Trek show and I wanted to watch one with good stories, excellent characters, etc. etc.

I enjoyed VOY's pilot episode immensely. I remember such anticipation about the show -- the conflict between the Starfleet and Maquis crew members, but all that amounted to was Belanna throwing a dish at Chakotay.

IMHO, the writer's didn't script the show out. They should've laid down guidelines for what would've happened in each season ... ("Okay, season three, Torres finally calls the captain 'sir'").

It's also the little stuff. Honestly, I think they should have been "weathering" the sets every show, and every season. You know, paint some burn marks on the corridor bulkhead here, maybe leave a bridge panel with a smoking crater in it ... make it look like the dammed ship isn't going to a starbase every other week to get fixed back up again.

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"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
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"The candidate who slimed John McCain in the primaries and smeared Al Gore in the general election is now the president who pledges to elevate the nation's tone and bring civility to our discorse. Kind of like Michael Corleone brought peace to the mob by killing the heads of the other four families."
--Paul Begala, Is Our Children Learning?

[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited February 25, 2001).]

Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :

Believe me, it's not the voice. In Austria/Germany she has a normal dubbing voice, but I don't like her too.

Here a few points what IMO is wrong with Voyager

Diplomacy is out, phasers are in.

Boring charakters and third-class actors

Berman

Janeway - in one episode she follows the directives of the Federation, in the next episode she disregard them. Equinox was a good example for that.

Fixation on Seven and the Doc

Bad use of technobabble

Too many Borg-episodes and IMO Voyager had ruined them. One cube destroyed 39 ships at Wolf 359, but the Voyager survives every confrontation.

No continuity. Voyager disregards historical Trek events like the Eugenic Wars.

8472 Shuttles

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"Second star to the right, and then straight on till morning."

[This message has been edited by Fitz (edited February 25, 2001).]

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

VOYAGER IS SUCK!

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

Just to play devil's advocate:

"Diplomacy is out, phasers are in"

Oh yeah, and the "AKIRA class with Quantumn toprzs and class XXXXXphaserz!" gang are upset about that aren't they? Besides, DS9 has had plenty of similar stuff, and a war to boot.

"Berman"

Ah. The guy who also created and ran DS9? The guy who was pretty much responsible for TNG after it's first two seasons?

"No continuity. Voyager disregards historical Trek events like the Eugenic Wars."

And? Jeez, be fair. You wanted the VOY writers to portray 90s Earth with the Eugenics war taking place? Brilliant. Confuse the hell out of the viewers who DON'T recall a 1967 Star Trek episode.

Besides, according to DS9, the Eugenics wars took place 200 years prior to the 24th century. You have to be consistent here.

The other arguements are fairer. Or I can't be arsed going through them all. You deceide.

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"And Mojo was hurt and I would have kissed his little boo boo but then I realized he was a BAD monkey so I KICKED HIM IN HIS FACE!"
-Bubbles

Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :

quote:

"Berman"
Ah. The guy who also created and ran DS9? The guy who was pretty much responsible for TNG after it's first two seasons?

Sorry, I meant Braga.

quote:
"No continuity. Voyager disregards historical Trek events like the Eugenic Wars."
You wanted the VOY writers to portray 90s Earth with the Eugenics war taking place?Confuse the hell out of the viewers who DON'T recall a 1967 Star Trek episode.

Nevertheless, to ignore the war was the wrong way.

quote:
Besides, according to DS9, the Eugenics wars took place 200 years prior to the 24th century.

I think there's a big difference between saying something wrong and showing something wrong.

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"Second star to the right, and then straight on till morning."

[This message has been edited by Fitz (edited February 25, 2001).]

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

"Sorry, I meant Braga."

The guy who co-wrote the fan favorite First Contact, along with a host of TNG's better episodes?

"I think there's a big difference between saying something wrong and showing something wrong."

Buh?

Personally, while I rather like Voyager and think it stands up under repeat viewing a lot better than I thought it would, if I were to suggest an overriding problem it would be their attempt to be all things to all people. Placing UPN on its back added new layers of complexity and red tape to wade through. Voyager could not be an enjoyable niche show, like DS9. It had to be appealing to a far larger audience, and they stumbled trying to figure out how to do that.

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I will shout until they know what I mean.
--
Neutral Milk Hotel
****
Read three (three!) chapters of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Then, go insane!

Posted by DARKSTAR on :

I think what went wrong is that the feeling of being alone should have been more emphasised.
I would personally have episodes mostly of Voyager at warp instead of spending entire episodes of Voyager chugging along at full impulse to at least show the crew trying to get home.
I would not have involved the Borg as much but would have at least 4 episodes per season from season 3. I would also have recurring conflicts between Chakotay and Janeway trying to adjust to each other command style. I would have kept the Maquis raider but would have destoyed it by the end of season 2. I would have the Kazon feature every other episode with large groups in pursuit of Voyager with Voyager escaping just by the skin of her teeth. I would have left Kazon space 3/4 through season 2.

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

"I would have the Kazon feature every other episode with large groups in pursuit of Voyager with Voyager escaping just by the skin of her teeth."

Yes, that wouldn't have been predictable, would it?

As I recall, the kazon hit Voyager hard and long during the time they had. The humiliation of having their ship stolen will make some reviewers smile when Voyager get's back.

Besides, there's no hope for the Kazon, a testosterone-crazed race previously enslaved, now surviving as pirates, in stolen ships they can't manufacture themselves and will soon lose over bar-brawls with bigger fish. Bunch o' bums...

Fitz: Bad use of technobabble? It's always been bad, when the concepts are too vague to comprehend. Sometimes you can only make out "that thing is bad, this thing will make that thing go away if I stimulate it with THIS thing!"
Data, Geordi and Wesley are the heavyweight champions on that one, I thought Torres made herself pretty clear in "Muse".

"Fixation on Seven and the Doc."
Do you know how much it costs to make an episode? They spent all that cash on an entire episode ("Good Shephard") just to make up for that.

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Here lies a toppled god,
His turnip not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and a tall one.

-Tleilaxu Epigram

Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :

I think, Voyager invents to often a technobabble-phrase to solve problems.

Yes, Braga. I'm sure he's the one who said in an interview that continuity sucks (ok, that weren't his exact words) and he pay no heed to other episodes.

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"Second star to the right, and then straight on till morning."

Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :

"I would not have involved the Borg as much but would have at least 4 episodes per season from season 3."

You wouldn't have involved the Borg as much? This is more than what Voyager's already done.

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"This is such an amazingly minor complaint. Does anyone actually watch episodes anymore, or is it just a notebook + pause button exercise these days?"
-Sol System on what constitutes modern day Star Trek watching, 02-22-01

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

"'I think there's a big difference between saying something wrong and showing something wrong.'
"Buh?"

I believe he means it's one thing for someone to say "200 years" when it should be something else. This can be considered a misstatement. It's quite another thing to have the crew actually go to the '90s and find no war. It's hard to call that anything other than discontinuity (unless you call it "blatant disregard for fans who actually pay attention to all the series as a whole, rather than forgetting each episode by the time the next one comes 'round").

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"I am slightly disturbed that a news station in the US would use the phrase 'to the max'. What's next? CNN saying 'Totally righteous murders?' BBC News 'Dude, like people were wasted yesterday'. The Times reporting 'Iraq bombed! For Great Justice!'?"
-Liam Kavanagh, 22.Feb.2001

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

How about "attempt to save an SF franchise from being a complete and utter laughing stock?" You have an entire audience of people who have never even heard of the Eugenics War. You had a movie that developed out of it, but never even mentioned the event itself. And finally, you have people who can quite easily look out their windows and realize that, oddly enough, the world didn't collapse into a genetically fueled semi-apocalpyse in the early 90's.

Beyond which, why is this particular war so important? Why this one TOS reference and not others?

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I will shout until they know what I mean.
--
Neutral Milk Hotel
****
Read three (three!) chapters of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Then, go insane!

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

Basically, we've got three references. One says late twentieth century, one says late 22nd century, and one, while an indirect reference, doesn't mention it in the late twentieth, as it would have had it existed then. I'd lean towards the mistake being the original ep.

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Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :

IIRC Khan mentioned 1996 in ST:TWOK. For me, that's the most reliable source.

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"Second star to the right, and then straight on till morning."

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

"On Earth, 200 years ago, I was a prince, with power over millions."

That's all Khan has to say about it.

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I will shout until they know what I mean.
--
Neutral Milk Hotel
****
Read three (three!) chapters of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Then, go insane!

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

Yeah, and that was around 2280, so even more evidence that the war actually took place later than Spock stated.

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

I'm almost positive that Khan mentioned a lauch date for the Botany Bay to Chekov when he was giving him his "You never told him the story" speech in Star Trek 2.

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"You don't tug on Superman's cape.
You don't spit into the wind.
You don't pull the mask off the ole' Lone Ranger
And you don't mess around with Jim."
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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

I just watched ST2 relatively recently, and I, too, thought he explicitly said "1996"...

Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :

IIRC, in "Space Seed" Khan stated what Sol said. In TWOK, Khan stated that the Botany Bay was lost in the year 1996.

Okuda decided to use the 1996 reference in the Chronology, ignoring (or he had forgotten) the other reference, which would have made more sense in terms of how the "real" year 1996 turned out. Maybe that's why the admiral in that DS9 ep stated the "revised" time period for the Eugenics Wars.

Unfortunately, Rain Robinson had a model of the Botany Bay in her office in 1997. Maybe that model was of the Botany Bay's prototype ship, and the BB wasn't built until the 21st century?

If they ever make a TWOK Special Edition, they could digitally overdub Khan's "1996" line into 2096, or even 2063 to coincide with WWIII. That "Eastern Coalition" in FC could have had something to do with the Eugenics project.

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Lisa: "Don't you remember the story of Oedipus?"
Homer: "Maybe five dollars will refresh my memory."
Lisa (angrily): "Oedipus was the story of a man who kills his father and marries his mother!"
Homer: "Uggh! Who pays for that wedding?"

Shabren's Final Prophecy: Star Trek: Legacy

[This message has been edited by Dukhat (edited February 27, 2001).]

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

I believe the chronology also states that some major areas were spared the destruction of the Eugenics Wars (like California). It's possible that it was mostly a European conflict and whatever effects it had had on the Western United States were not apparent a year later.

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Actually, I believe Khan was based in India/Asia...

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Khan DOES says he left Earth on 1996, and before that he was a "prince."

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

Even if it was confined to Europe, I don't remember a war in 1996...

Didn't the Genetic Supermen take over 3/4 of the Earth's surface, or something, according to Space Seed?

And what was the EXACT quote from TWOK, cause I seem to remember the "200 years ago, I was a prince" line, and placed the 1996 line in Space Seed. It still doesn't make much sense, but then, they didn't actually say WHEN Star Trek took place until ST IV, did they?

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"And Mojo was hurt and I would have kissed his little boo boo but then I realized he was a BAD monkey so I KICKED HIM IN HIS FACE!"
-Bubbles

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Well, TWOK specified the twenty-third century. 2285, at the earliest, per the date on McCoy's Romulan ale.

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We are the Borg. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.
"Wowsers!"
-Star Trek: Series ?: "A Pair o' Docs, part II"

Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :

One of the reasons I think VOY is the worst series, is that whatever happens in VOY, it has no effect whatsoever to the rest of Trek, i.e. the Alpha Quadrant, the Federation or anything.
It is just plain stupid a little ship like Voyager keeps avoiding trouble. Maybe if they'd made the ship a lot bigger, we could have had interesting characters, like on TNG.

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To know a thing well, know its limits. Only when pushed beyond its tolerances will true nature be seen.
The Amtal Rule (Dune)
---
Titan Fleet Yards - Harry Doddema's Star Trek Site

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

Indeed, can we get back on topic, and try to find better reasons why Voyager sucks, apart from "they ignored the Eugenics War!"

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"I rather strongly disagree, even if I share the love of Dick. Speaking of which, that would be the most embarrasing .sig quote ever, so never use it."

- Simon Sizer, 23/01/2001

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

TOS largely had no effect on the Federation.

You can argue that TNG had more interesting characters, but that's hardly due to them having the bigger ship. We've had roughly the same number of leads.

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"And Mojo was hurt and I would have kissed his little boo boo but then I realized he was a BAD monkey so I KICKED HIM IN HIS FACE!"
-Bubbles

Posted by Wes (Member # 212) on :

personally, I think voyager is a great show to those who dont care as much. If you have a life, and dont care that section 4, paragraph 2, line 6 of the prime directive is being broken, then i think, to a point, most people can enjoy it.

Something that does bother me, however, is the fact that they should be nearing or in romulan space by now. ugh.

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Janeway: "Dimissed"
Neelix: [stands there dumbfounded] "b..but.."
Janeway: "That's Starfleet for get out"

Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :

Isn't that contradictory?

"It only sucks if you pay attention to menial little details that only losers pay attention to!"

"So, if 10000 ly + 5000 ly + Kes + The Borg + else, HEY WAITTTAMINIT!!!! THEY SHOULD BE IN ROMULAN SPACE BY NOW!!!!!!"

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Well, they only want the show to keep momentum and not chop its hands off by leaving the mysterious and vast Delta quad. Romulan space must be hellaboring.
Everything is either dead or confiscated.

I for one am going to feel a bit empty and sad when the last Trek-show of the twentieth century ends. Voyager's had some damn good episodes, and if the end is as good as WYLB was then I'll be happy, in some sense.

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Here lies a toppled god,
His turnip not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and a tall one.

-Tleilaxu Epigram

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

The last good Trek show of the twentieth-century was Star Trek: Deep Space Nine

Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :

Actually, you are correct, seeing as how Voyager will end in the 21st century, so the only last Star Trek series of the 20th century is DS9.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

I believe what they are trying to bring attention to, is that Voyager spent the majority of it's "on-air" life in the twentieth-century. So it would be a 20th century TV show -- not 21st.

But it still sucks my left testicle.

Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :

As you've said - and repeated - many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, times.

But this thread is not "Who can say that Voyager sucks the most?", but rather an introspective look as to why people (some, not all) were apparently disillusioned with the state of Voyager episodes.

Posted by DARKSTAR on :

TOS was very much focused on a ship eploring very near earth space, In TOS they rarely ventured 75 light years from Earth.

TNG ventured beyond the space explored by Kirk in TOS. In TNG They even ventured outside of Federation Space and into many unexplored sectors of space. In TNG they even managed to make Federation space grow mostly Coreward and Rimward.

DS9 actually focused on a former war torn region close to where the Enterprise had been. DS9 was probaly the most Character lead series as TNG mostly focused on new aliens and Cultures. In DS9 We focused on ONE Culture and the after effects of a planet held under an oppressive regiem. We also had a regular window into another part of the galaxy and a threat which only The Borg could match in The Dominion.

VOY was the most different as the crew and ship were SNATCHED from everything they knew and were decades away from Federation Space at high Warp. the reason's Voyager has had no continutity as VOY was going to be seen covering light years between each episode. The reason The Borg as seen as much is because VOY writers want to show there is NO escape from them.

Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :

Argh!

Does this guy EVER read our suggestions to back up his statements? 75 light years? Th' hell?

Mark

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"Why build one, when you can have two at twice the price?"

- Carl Sagan, "Contact"

Posted by Gaseous Anomaly (Member # 114) on :

UM = Commissioner Gordon on speed.

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"Sack me!? I MADE the BBC!!"

Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :

That's a new one. I need a big lamp-thingy, I suppose.

Although, I also don't get it. So if you could explain that would = good.

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

You mean that UM is going to retire in a completely non-obvious storyline? Honest? I didn't guess from about, ooh, part 1?

Even if the tecnically didn't go as far out in TOS as they did in TNG, TOS had MUCH more the feeling of exploring the unknown. In TNG, they were usually in Federation space. Or just ferrying people about.

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"And Mojo was hurt and I would have kissed his little boo boo but then I realized he was a BAD monkey so I KICKED HIM IN HIS FACE!"
-Bubbles

Posted by Gaseous Anomaly (Member # 114) on :

OOOOPPSS!!!

Commissioner Lasard on speed.

Sorr-ee.

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"Sack me!? I MADE the BBC!!"

Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :

Well then. Now it makes more sense. Well, no it doesn't. But I can say it does. So I will. It makes sense. May this forever end all comparisons of me to any commisioner of any kind in the future. Amen.

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"I WANT A POST VOY SERIES STAR TREK ORIGINAL MESSAGE WAS LOOKING FORWARD NOT LOOKING BACK."

-Darkstar

Posted by Gaseous Anomaly (Member # 114) on :

Has anyone seen Police Academy

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"Sack me!? I MADE the BBC!!"

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

Yes, indeed. Many, many times.

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"I rather strongly disagree, even if I share the love of Dick. Speaking of which, that would be the most embarrasing .sig quote ever, so never use it."

- Simon Sizer, 23/01/2001

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Loved them when I was 9. Then it went to hell. The timing of the jokes are sometimes soo pathetic, and when Guttenberg left, it became worse than pathetic.
There's not one actor in all of those movies whose career got better after them movies...except for Guttenberg. I saw Bubba Smith in that horrible "Silence Of The Hams", that's it.

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Here lies a toppled god,
His turnip not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and a tall one.

-Tleilaxu Epigram

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

Uhh. .. Steve Guttenberg's career got better? Have you seen him in anything since? I can't remember him in anything since the "Three Men and a Baby" films, and they were 10 years ago. I reckon he should demand a refund from the Stonecutters.

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"I rather strongly disagree, even if I share the love of Dick. Speaking of which, that would be the most embarrasing .sig quote ever, so never use it."

- Simon Sizer, 23/01/2001

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Touch�.
There was coccoooocccn... But I'm not going to IMDB just for his sake, forget it.

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Here lies a toppled god,
His turnip not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and a tall one.

-Tleilaxu Epigram

[This message has been edited by Nimrod (edited March 06, 2001).]

Posted by Gaseous Anomaly (Member # 114) on :

Bubba Smith played himself in Gargoyles II: The New Batch and played a security guard in Married With Children.
Hang on, that IS a plummeting career!!

David Graf was in ST twice: he played the helmsman in 'Soldiers Of The Empire', and Amelia Earhart's navigator in 'The 37s'. And he was in an A-Team episode, which counts for treble.

I'd say he's been doing the best out of the lot of them, although I recall Lasard's actor being in The Crucible.

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At that point, McDonald fired his gun three times in the air to emphasize his point. The crowd, estimated at 350,000, loudly cheered the new candidate.

"Let me make this clear: I am the law! I am your ruler! And you will have fries with that, motherf*cker!"

[This message has been edited by Gaseous Anomaly (edited March 06, 2001).]

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

Wasn't Lassard a Commandent, rather than a Commisioner?

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"And Mojo was hurt and I would have kissed his little boo boo but then I realized he was a BAD monkey so I KICKED HIM IN HIS FACE!"
-Bubbles

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

Wasn't Lassard the old guy who "looked after" Punky Brewster!?! and wasn't he also the old guy who had the Dog in "Fraggle Rock"!?!

LOL!

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Has anyone seen my Pulaku?

Posted by Gaseous Anomaly (Member # 114) on :

Liam: You're right.

Andrew: The guy with the dog in Fraggle Rock!?! That's Uncle Travelling Matt you're dissin', boy-ee!!

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At that point, McDonald fired his gun three times in the air to emphasize his point. The crowd, estimated at 350,000, loudly cheered the new candidate.

"Let me make this clear: I am the law! I am your ruler! And you will have fries with that, motherf*cker!"

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Lassard was George Gaynes, who was apparently on "Punky Brewster".

Travelling Uncle Matt was David Goelz.

Thus spake the IMDb, anyway.

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"...I know this board in secret, intimate ways which are beyond your comprehension.... Let's just say that people should *not* be telling me what to do; it should always be the other way around."
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Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

Hang on. Wasn't Uncle travelling Matt actually Gogo's uncle? Therefore, wouldn't he have been a fraggle?

I thought that the old guy with the dog was just the lighthouse keeper. He never seemed to do much travelling to me.

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"And Mojo was hurt and I would have kissed his little boo boo but then I realized he was a BAD monkey so I KICKED HIM IN HIS FACE!"
-Bubbles

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

Yeah, Fulton Mackay in the UK version. "Ach, Sprocket!" 8)

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"I rather strongly disagree, even if I share the love of Dick. Speaking of which, that would be the most embarrasing .sig quote ever, so never use it."

- Simon Sizer, 23/01/2001

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

According to the IMDb again, Fulton Mackay played "Captain" in the UK version, which character is not listed otherwise. Hell if I can figure out who played "old guy w/ dog" in the regular version...

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

No no no no no, it went like this: The scenes with the old man and his dog were essentially inserts,and were tailored for each country it was shown. The British version featured a Scottish lighthouse keeper and his dog Sprocket.

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Ross: This is not good for my rage. *takes another pill*

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Yeah, but the American version had an old guy w/ a dog, too, as I recall. Except he wasn't in a lighthouse. I think he was just in his home, or something.

Anyway, I don't know what the character's name was, and I didn't see anything that seemed like it was probably him. I could be wrong, though.

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

So, you don't know who played the US version, am I reading you right? I'm sure I saw it on the IMDB. . .

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Ross: This is not good for my rage. *takes another pill*

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

Those scenes were different for every country?

For some reason, I find that incredibly cool.

But what about those instances when a Fraggle (usually Gogo) would wander out of the hole into the lighthouse (or whatever)? What did they do then?

And why don't they bring a DVD out with all the different nationalities scenes on it? And have Gogo going SuPEr SaIyA-JIN 5! I GOT THE POWERUP!

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"And Mojo was hurt and I would have kissed his little boo boo but then I realized he was a BAD monkey so I KICKED HIM IN HIS FACE!"
-Bubbles

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

From IMDB:

"The Doc and Sprocket sequences in the show were localized for each production country. In Canada, USA, and Germany, Doc was an inventor. In the UK, he was a lighthouse keeper, and in France, a chef.

Gerard Parkes .... Doc (U.S.A. & Canada)
Hans Helmut Dickow .... Doc (Germany)
Michel Robin .... Doc (France)
Fulton Mackay .... Captain (UK)"

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Ross: This is not good for my rage. *takes another pill*

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Oh, "Doc" was the old guy? Okay... I don't know why I didn't guess that...

Posted by Gaseous Anomaly (Member # 114) on :

Okay...

We went from discussing where Voyager ballsed things up, to a debate about the Eugenics Wars (that I apparently lived through [?!]), to considering the careers of the Police Academy actors, to puzzling over the identity of the token human on Fraggle Rock.

I love this place

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At that point, McDonald fired his gun three times in the air to emphasize his point. The crowd, estimated at 350,000, loudly cheered the new candidate.

"Let me make this clear: I am the law! I am your ruler! And you will have fries with that, motherf*cker!"

Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :

I'm amazed no one has elaborated on what DID screw Voyager up from the get-go... They took a flawed premise and then executed it very poorly at first.

Okay. First you've got a ship full of people who joined Starfleet to "boldly go", et cetera, captained by a self-acknowledged scientist, who suddenly find themselves in a part of the galaxy no one's ever been and they're gonna whine about getting home ASAP? Even though he was an idiot for doing so, at least Picard was true to the "explorer" character by saying "hey, let's see what's out here" in "Q Who?".

Then they compounded things by spending the bulk of the first couple seasons giving us "we found a way home! -- Oops, no we didn't..." stories. I liked "The '37's", and wish it had been in the first season as it was originally supposed to be. For that matter, I wish they had done something slightly different, in having Voyager's nacelles usually in the "up" position and only lowered to land. It would have been a nice surprise for the audience.

And of course, by the time TPTB started trying to get the show on a better track, the characters were established, and the whininess couldn't be just done away with overnight. And the show was getting gradually better until Brannon took over the reins.

And before you start singing the praises of Brannon Braga, he's the one who'll run the franchise into the ground if given the chance -- which, with the new series, it seems he has been. He CO-wrote both Generations and First Contact with Ron Moore, and it was Ron who talked him down from his stupider notions. Braga was the one who put Scotty on the E-B, despite it being pointed out that we had already seen that by the TNG timeframe, he thinks Kirk is alive still, he said "so what? That was only one episode. Who's gonna remember something like that?" Hands up, all of you... And he was fortunately talked out of making Zefram Cochrane a woman to be Picard's love interest in FC. Same argument -- "That was only one episode, and decades ago at that. Who's gonna remember something like that?" He's the one who has been quoted in several interviews as saying "continuity is for wussies" and variations on that. He's a good writer, as long as he has someone editing him...

Best episodes of the series, IMO, include "Meld", "Blood Fever", and "Message in a Bottle". But there have been a lot of clinkers, too...

--Jonah

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"It's obvious I'm dealing with a moron..."

--Col. Edwards, ROBOTECH

[This message has been edited by Peregrinus (edited March 11, 2001).]

Posted by MC Infinity (Member # 531) on :

voyager didn't go wrong first of all. i found no flaws in it before visiting online messageboards, some people just like to find flaws with things and others just go along to be "cool" and then there are the newbies which see everyone else hating voyager and decide to agree with them in order for them to be accepted.

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Go to my site ST Infinity or you'll cause the release of another Olsen Twins movie. Do you want that on your conscience?

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Well, "self acknowledged scientist" or not, Janeway has really been forced to line-dance between the urge to get home and the urge to explore, this Caretaker accident being the chance of a lifetime. But she's never hesitated whenever they found a chance at a shortcut, provided it was ethical (caretaker-core in "TVC", alien powerjuice in "Equinox").

If they can get away with making high-ranking officers out of maquis, they'll likely be very appreciated for finding out so much about the delta quadrant whilst staying alive and keeping the best traditions of Starfleet.
I'll wager some of the numerous modifications to the ship will also up the standard of ship technology and gadgets. Too bad Paris bulkhead-mod in "year of hell" never was made. And the isokinetic cannon could've made an unexpected entrance, if used sparingly and with care.
And they'll make it into the history books for executing the most thorough shakedown cruise of all time...

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Don't kill me, I'm charming!

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

It seems to me that most of the episodes people name when they think of Voyager's best were produced while Braga with either executive producer or producer-in-training. As I recall, IMHO, IMHOTEP, etc.

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I will shout until they know what I mean.
--
Neutral Milk Hotel
****
Read three (three!) chapters of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Then, go insane!

[This message has been edited by Sol System (edited March 12, 2001).]

Posted by DARKSTAR on :

Throughout Voyager's almost seven year run; The Crew's passion for getting home has never died. I know continuity hasn't been Voyager's strong point but the fact that it was always fresh in each episode.
Changes
Voyager should have had more chances to go off it's course so that it wasn't always sticking to it's beeline course to Earth. I would have had the Borg introduced more dramatically. I would have had Voyager warping through space until it came to a stop when the probe stopped transmitting.I would have had Janeway and Cakotay in Engineering sying the following
Janeway "When did the probe stop transmitting?"
Chakotay "Precisely 3 hours ago"
Janeway "Where was it to when it stopped transmitting?"
Chakotay "In a region 20 light years ahead"
COMPUTER PLAYS BACK LAST IMAGES
Chakotay "Well Kathryn Looks like this is the moment we feared!"
Janeway "Borg Space"
Janeway "All Senior Staff report to the Observation room"

Posted by Gaseous Anomaly (Member # 114) on :

Ermm...that's not too far off what actually happened in 'Scorpion, Part I', Darkstar.

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At that point, McDonald fired his gun three times in the air to emphasize his point. The crowd, estimated at 350,000, loudly cheered the new candidate.

"Let me make this clear: I am the law! I am your ruler! And you will have fries with that, motherf*cker!"

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

Go easy on the kid, he's from Swindown. 8)

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Ross: This is not good for my rage. *takes another pill*

Posted by DARKSTAR on :

I'm not originally from Swindon but I came from Tiverton in Devon.

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

Devon? That explains, well, something. Probably.

To be fair to Janeway, her situation is very different from Picards in Q Who. He was thrown just over 2 years travel away. She was thrown 40 years. That's a whopping difference.

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"And Mojo was hurt and I would have kissed his little boo boo but then I realized he was a BAD monkey so I KICKED HIM IN HIS FACE!"
-Bubbles

Posted by Gaseous Anomaly (Member # 114) on :

Lee: You really, really wouldn't like to see me pissed, would you? Only asking, BTW

I wonder is that how all Devon-folk type, you know, having a style like their daft accent.

Because Devon knows how they make it so friggin' incomprehensible.

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At that point, McDonald fired his gun three times in the air to emphasize his point. The crowd, estimated at 350,000, loudly cheered the new candidate.

"Let me make this clear: I am the law! I am your ruler! And you will have fries with that, motherf*cker!"

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

Well, I dunno, Gasey, y'all should come over to Blighty for the next Flare UK get-together and we'll see. 8)

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Ross: This is not good for my rage. *takes another pill*

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

Yes. Then I could spend all the time pretending to be Oirsh-Angel. From Galway. It would be hilarious. Trust me on this.

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"And Mojo was hurt and I would have kissed his little boo boo but then I realized he was a BAD monkey so I KICKED HIM IN HIS FACE!"
-Bubbles

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

Can I be Wesley?

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Ross: This is not good for my rage. *takes another pill*

Posted by Gaseous Anomaly (Member # 114) on :

Send me some numbers, Senor Poet. Then we'll talk.

And I could be his wrath-o'-God father.

I am from Galway, and by the time I finish this message I still will be.

No sign of any vampires. Check me out. Like St Pat I drove those muthas out!!

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At that point, McDonald fired his gun three times in the air to emphasize his point. The crowd, estimated at 350,000, loudly cheered the new candidate.

"Let me make this clear: I am the law! I am your ruler! And you will have fries with that, motherf*cker!"

[This message has been edited by Gaseous Anomaly (edited March 13, 2001).]

Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :

What the hell is this Trektoday site, and is it authorized by Paramount? And whether it is or it isn't, have their rumors & predictions been correct in the past?

Shabren's Final Prophecy: Star Trek: Legacy

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

Excuse me, Duckie, would you mind NOT trying to actually talk about Trek in this very serious topic in this General Trek Discussion forum? It's totally inappropriate. 8)

Numbers, Herr Anomaly?

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Ross: This is not good for my rage. *takes another pill*

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

You know, I was just thinking. . . no-one liked TNG or DS9 when they started. But something happened to make them 'turn a corner' and they really took off. You know, "Best of Both Worlds," "The Jem'Hadar" - both season 3 cliffhangers I believe. After that, both shows never looked back.

Yoyager in its turn had a major season 3 cliffhanger - "Scorpion." So how did it turn out different? Did they, in planning their 'takeoff,' put too much reliance on their First Stage engine, one Seven of Nine by name?

*Darkstar speak* GREAT METAPHOR!!

Sorry. 8)

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Ross: This is not good for my rage. *takes another pill*

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

Since when did *Darkstar speak* become allowed in civilised conversation? Hmm?

[This message has been edited by PsyLiam (edited March 14, 2001).]

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

Actually, the Jeh'Hadar was the season 2 cliff-hanger.

But it still holds. While BOBW is the point where everyone sat up and noticed TNG, the changes certainly started with season 3. Aside from the obvious visual changes (such as the new uniforms), the characters started to gel a lot more. Wesley wasn't half as annoying as he used to be. And we got some classics that would have stood proud in any of the later seasons. Yesterdays's Enterprise, Tin Man, Sins of the Father, Hollow Pursuits, etc.

With TNG and DS9, season 3 was the start of the attempted changes, which were then followed up on in season 4. In DS9's case, the season 3 experiment was the Defiant, and the shift towards the political side of the Alpha Quadrant.

You can be Wesley, as long as I get to be Spike.

And Monty can be Dru.

No, wait, hang on...

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You know, when Comedy Central asked us to do a Thanksgiving episode, the first thought that went through my mind was, "Boy, I'd like to have sex with Jennifer Aniston."
-Trey Parker, co-creator of South Park

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

I liked TNG from the beginning. I was only seven at the time, though. And I remember liking DS9 right from the start too, but it's harder to judge that, because DS9 reruns have always been few and far between here.

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Not even a god can deny that I have squared the circle of a static Earth and cubed the Earth sphere by rotating it once to a dynamic Time or Life Cube.
--
Gene Ray
****
Read three (three!) chapters of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet" Or don't. You know, whatever.

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

I must have been older (since I am a whole mighty year older than the mighty Simon. And in those days, we got Trek episodes decades after the US. TOS didn't start showing until 1981).

I started to watch TNG because my dad watched it, but I got hooked with Yesterday's Enterprise (but then again, I'd only been watching from the very end of season 2. I do remember Wil Wheaton being on Going Live. *shudder*)

With DS9, I really liked the pilot, but my interest dropped off during season 1, and I wasn't watching it by the end. Later, I heard they were introducing a starship into DS9, and I read a bit on the Dominion. So I deceided to but the season 2 cliff-hanger, I really liked it, and stuck with it from there.

Voyager hasn't really done anything that's made me a diligent fan. It's okay, but there's no way I'm spending money on videos of it.

Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :

I don't even spend money on videos on any Trek series unless I see a REAL great buy such 2 for 5 dollars.

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Signature for sale! For a mere price of $20 per letter you get this wonderful little space to say your own things. Get it now while there's still space!

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

1981? Unlikely, given I remember watching it on TV in 1974. The first showing on British TV was in fact in 1969 or 1970. TNG started here in 1990, and DS9 in 1995. Voyager 1996. Series V? Probably 2003 (Sky will have it 2002).

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Ross: This is not good for my rage. *takes another pill*

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

Lee, I was being sarcastic.

I have lost all respect for you.

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

That was sarcasm? Hardly. If you'd said it like "we didn't even get TOS until, oh, at least 1981" it'd have been obvious.

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Ross: This is not good for my rage. *takes another pill*

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

I thought the "We didn't get Trek episodes for decades after the US" made it obvious enough.

Besides, I was trying to get some people to believe me. I = evil.

Worringly, I also = listening to Never Forget.

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

See? It's not just Americans who can't read sarcasm into plain text.

WE ARE VINDICATED! EXCELSIOR!

Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :

The British invented Sarcasm, and like Aluminium, it gets distorted on the trip across the Atlantic.

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"I WANT A POST VOY SERIES STAR TREK ORIGINAL MESSAGE WAS LOOKING FORWARD NOT LOOKING BACK."

-Darkstar

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

Problem is, Liam isn't evil. He's a cuddly teddy bear. It just doesn't work.

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Ross: This is not good for my rage. *takes another pill*

Posted by Gaseous Anomaly (Member # 114) on :

By fuck it does.

Anyone else remember TEDDY RUXPIN!?!?

evilevilevilevilevilevil

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At that point, McDonald fired his gun three times in the air to emphasize his point. The crowd, estimated at 350,000, loudly cheered the new candidate.

"Let me make this clear: I am the law! I am your ruler! And you will have fries with that, motherf*cker!"

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

*sings* Come dream with me tonight... *forgets words*

I = no longer listening to Never Forget.

I = Now litening to Back For Good.

I = crap.

Posted by Gaseous Anomaly (Member # 114) on :

You = right.

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At that point, McDonald fired his gun three times in the air to emphasize his point. The crowd, estimated at 350,000, loudly cheered the new candidate.

"Let me make this clear: I am the law! I am your ruler! And you will have fries with that, motherf*cker!"

Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :

quote:
Excuse me, Duckie, would you mind NOT trying to actually talk about Trek in this very serious topic in this General Trek Discussion forum? It's totally inappropriate.

Actually, I did mean to post it in the GD forum. I don't know how the hell it ended up here. Must have had a brain fart.

And if you're going to give me a nickname, it should be more like "Dookie", to rhyme with Dukhat.

Shabren's Final Prophecy: Star Trek: Legacy

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

Too bad. 8)

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"I never saw the TAS, there actually was sex on the bridge?"

- Matrix, 14/03/2001

Posted by MC Infinity (Member # 531) on :

you don't want to confuse him with a certain other duck-like individual

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Go to my site ST Infinity or you'll cause the release of another Olsen Twins movie. Do you want that on your conscience?

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

I hardly think Darkstar compares to the legendary Darkwing Duck.

Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :

They were talking about me, not Darkstar, Liam.

Shabren's Final Prophecy: Star Trek: Legacy

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

-Ey, where's dookie?
-Yo DOOKIE!!!

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Don't kill me, I'm charming!

Posted by Gaseous Anomaly (Member # 114) on :

Second word. Sounds like...a swan? A cygnet? Sounds like...pussy? What?

OK, first word. What the...BLOOD!?!?

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At that point, McDonald fired his gun three times in the air to emphasize his point. The crowd, estimated at 350,000, loudly cheered the new candidate.

"Let me make this clear: I am the law! I am your ruler! And you will have fries with that, motherf*cker!"