Flare Sci-Fi Forums: Someone's been reading Shane Johnson (SPOILERS)

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Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :

SPOILERS!!! THOU ART WARNED!!!

Anyway, the Voyager episode "Q2" featuring Q and his now-teenaged son Q is on. It starts with Icheb giving a presentation on early Starfleet history to Janeway. And, I swear, Icheb said that Kirk's historic five-year mission ended in 2207. Isn't that about fifty or so years way too early?

I'll comment on the rest of the episode when it's over. On another note, that Cadbury Bunny audition commercial is on again for about the tenth year in a row.

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Nic: She's not a practicing lesbian. We need PRACTICING lesbians!
Me: I have a camcorder.
Nic: But no lesbians.
Me: Ahhh... no.
Nic: DAMN IT MAN! WE NEED LESBIANS! LOTS AND LOTS OF LESBIANS!

ICQ Conversation From January 23, 2001.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

2270, I believe, is what Ichy said. That's what I heard, anyway.

I watched this episode too. I'm kinda of irritated about how they've ruined the character of Q. Mind you, this is the first Q/Voyager episode I've watched since the first one many many moons ago.

DS9 handled the character a lot better when he did that pesterin' on the station.

We first see Q, and he's like a scientist conducting tests on the crew of the Enterprise. He wants to see how humans react to various situations. (Encounter at Farpoint, Hide and "Q", Q-Who?)

Then he shows up AS a human, so it's all still the basic "learning what it means to be human", etc.

ARGH!!! I just think Q was a lot cooler in TNG and DS9.

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
***
I wouln't say that anyone who has ceased to post every time you rant has "realized that they couldn't win" Omega. It's more like "oh, great he comes Mr. conservative frontal lobotomy boy who only hits one note over and over and over and over..."
-Jay, July 15, 2000

[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited April 11, 2001).]

Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :

Episode's over. And, I guess I should add, it's the first episode I've seen in almost a year.

Overall, I liked the episode. Like father, like son. Q Junior was really an annoying little !@#$ who needed a good smack upside the head. Of course, he did take away Neelix's vocal cords and Seven's clothes. From there, the episode was pretty well paced, in my opinion. I liked the ending; it didn't seem too contrived or predictable to me. It would have been interesting to Q Junior stay onboard as a human, but I guess that it is a little too late to start adding youngsters to the cast. Especially since we already have Icheb and Naomi.

Best lines from the episode:
"The Continuum has told you before: DO NOT PROVOKE THE BORG!" -- Q Senior

"Can I see you naked again" -- Q Junior

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

"The Continuum has told you before: DO NOT PROVOKE THE BORG!"

Why does it matter? Can't Q just snap their fingers and send 'em back to whence they came? (Speaking of which, woulda been nice to see "Q-2" - Corbin Bernsen - show up as one of the judges)

And didn't Q provoke the Borg in Q-Who? (Sort-of?)

[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited April 11, 2001).]

Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :

I don't know. It sounded like Icheb said "two thousand two-hundred seven." Maybe he did say seventy and I didn't catch it. Stranger things have happened.

I think Voyager has changed the Q character to a good degree, but I don't he's been ruined. He still seems to be his same old self. It's just this time around he was trying to figure out how to be a parent.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Eh ... I don't know. I rather enjoyed Q in Q-Less.

"You hit me! Picard never hit me!"

"I'm not Picard!"

I wish Sisko and Q could've gone head to head more often.

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Personally, I thought Q-Less was not very good at all, and enjoyed Q's first Voyager appearence much more.

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"Excuse me, Mr. Rampaging Killer? Why don't you put down the gun and take a look at this hand-held monkey? Does it not have clever little forepaws? It eats gum and sap!"
--
L. Fitzgerald Sj�berg
****
Read three (three!) chapters of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet" and something pleasent will happen to you. Possibly involving syrup.

Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :

I'm just waiting for the screencaps of naked Seven of Nine to be posted...

(Okay, I know it's just her back, but it's those little things that count.)

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Lisa: "Don't you remember the story of Oedipus?"
Homer: "Maybe five dollars will refresh my memory."
Lisa (angrily): "Oedipus was the story of a man who kills his father and marries his mother!"
Homer: "Uggh! Who pays for that wedding?"

Shabren's Final Prophecy: Star Trek: Legacy

Posted by Krenim (Member # 22) on :

Just got done watching the episode:

Icheb definitely said 2207, but that was probably a typo in the script or error on the actor's part that didn't get caught.

I wouldn't call Q1's actions in "Q Who?" provoking the Borg per se. If Picard had been a good boy and followed Guinan's advice, the Borg probably wouldn't have detected them (at least not for a while). Of course, if Picard had followed Guinan's advice, Q probably would have provoked the Borg in order to set in motion the events that would have lead to Picard's begging for help.

My biggest problem with the episode:

Could Q's help have been any more vaguer?

For those of us keeping track of Voyager's mileage, this is going to wreak havoc. Just how many years constitute a few?

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"The Long Kiss Goodnight begins, more or less, with Geena Davis being kicked in the head by a deer. This was the high point of the film."

- Sol System, 2/24/01

Posted by Daniel (Member # 453) on :

I was positive he said 2270. I remember listening to his report and saying to myself, "Thank God they got the dates right for once."

Maybe I was mistaken, but I don't think so. I should've taped the damn thing.

Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :

2270 WOULDN'T be right, though. 2269 would.

And yay, I don't get to see VGR again until AFTER the finale because there's no UPN station here & someone in CT is taping it all for me. Fucking cable company...no Sci-Fi, Bravo, or History Channel unless I get a converter. What the fuck's up with THAT?!?

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"For people with resources, the right events happen. They may look like coincidences, but they arise out of necessity." --T�rk Hviid

Posted by Mikey T (Member # 144) on :

Icheb did say 2270, which was strange because I'm wondering it only took a year to change the original configuration of the Consittution Class to the refit one.

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"When I said to get involved in the gay community, I didn't mean to sleep with everyone in it."
Michael_T

Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :

Yeah, that's an "oops". Scotty said he's spent the last year-and-a-half refitting the Enterprise. I SUPPOSE the V'Ger incident could have been late in 2271, and the Enterprise pulled into drydock in early 2270... *shrug*

Besides, we have to allow time for the animated series. *grin*

--Jonah

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"It's obvious I'm dealing with a moron..."

--Col. Edwards, ROBOTECH

Posted by Obi Juan (Member # 90) on :

2269 would have been correct? Says who? The Okudas? Big Deal.

Does 2270 contradict canon? Okay so we have the year and a half line, but a year and a half from when? I don't recall anything canon saying that TMP took place in 2271. Until the chronology I always assumed that it took place about ten years after the end of the series, and never really liked the Okuda's conjecture about it.

This would bump the five year mission up a year, meaning that Where No Man Has Gone Before took place in 2266.

[This message has been edited by Obi Juan (edited April 12, 2001).]

Posted by Zor Prime on :

Ya know, it's funny.
This seems like a rehash of "Charlie X" from TOS.
Also, remember "Squire of Gothos", with Trelane? Same plot.
And then there was speculation after Q's first appearances in TNG that he was really Trelane. There was an article in one of those "Best of Trek" books called "Q of Gothos" that speculated that Q was Trelane - both liked to dress up in costumes and cause trouble on ships named Enterprise, similar powers etc.
Then..
In a novel called "Q Who" I think it was called, it was revealed that Q was Trelane's father. It was Q who we hear talking to Trelane at the end of Squire of Gothos". A nice connection between TNG and TOS.
Now...
We have Q as a father with a son who is a pain in the butt etc etc.
We've seen all this before!!

Posted by TheF0rce (Member # 533) on :

this episold was quite good
lots of funny moments

best is when the borg finally beat voyager the way it should be.

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Wasn't there also the novel Q-Squared, wherein Trelane is a Q, and John-DeLancie-Q is his babysitter of sorts?

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"Although, from what I understand, having travelled around the Mid-west quite a bit, apparently Jesus is coming, so I guess the choice now is we should decide whether we should spit or swallow."
-Maynard James Keenan

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Q-Who was a TNG episode ... the first appearance of the Borg (and Q's third appearance). It wasn't a novel.

Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :

Q-Squared was a good book in my opinion.

I missed the first 15 minutes of the episode. So I missed Seven naked huh...

Q's not different, after All Good things... seeing that Picard passed his 7 years test went on to bother Janeway. He's no longer testing the human race more like just now annoying them that's all.

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Posted by Mikey T (Member # 144) on :

Maybe Q decided that he needed some other Starfleet officer to annoy other than Picard, which brought him to DS9 and the former Commander Sisko. But Sisko is too easily provoked, so there's Janeway.

I heard somewhere that Jeri Ryan was suppose to show more skin when she joined Voyager but since she's dating Braga, he put a stop to this. Any chance this could be true?

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"When I said to get involved in the gay community, I didn't mean to sleep with everyone in it."
Michael_T

Posted by Zor Prime on :

Yeah, sorry, it was Q-Squared that I meant.
I must have been drunk when I wrote that message. Great book I thought.
My point is that we dealt with this sort of thing already, it seems that the "canon" shows are just catching on to these plotlines.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

DC Comics did a six-part TNG miniseries in '87. The major plotline concerned Q returning to the Enterprise -- the Continuum got so mad at him, they made him human. While trying to commit suicide, Q accidently shot Lt (jg) LaForge, killing him. Later, Q made a sacrificial act to appease whatever it was after the Enterprise, and the Continuum made him a Q again ... at which point he resurrected Geordi.

Sound like Deja-Q? Q's made human, makes sacrafical act to appease the thing that is after him, then moves the big asteroid after the Q make him a Q again.

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

"I don't recall anything canon saying that TMP took place in 2271. Until the chronology I always assumed that it took place about ten years after the end of the series, and never really liked the Okuda's conjecture about it."

Fair enough. You are ignoring most of the dialogue from the movie though, which indicated (off the top of my head) that:

1/ The Enterprise had been in drydock for about a year and a half

2/ Kirk hadn't logged a single star hour in about the same amount of time (according to Decker).

3/ Kirk had spent "5 years out there, dealing with unknowns like this".

The only way for TMP to occur TEN years after the end of the series would be for Kirk to have had ANOTHER 5 year mission. Which contradicts no 3.

Sorry, I'm not getting it. At most, you could place all 3 seasons of Trek as occuring in the first year of Kirk's five year misson. But even then, TMP couldn't have been more than 7 years after "Turnabout Intruder". And putting all three seasons in one year would be incredibly silly.

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You know, when Comedy Central asked us to do a Thanksgiving episode, the first thought that went through my mind was, "Boy, I'd like to have sex with Jennifer Aniston."
-Trey Parker, co-creator of South Park

Posted by Zor Prime on :

Well, before the Paramount chronology, there was speculation that the animated series filled in the last 2 years of the 5 year mission. And that there was another 5 year mission before TMP.
Then the chronolgy took up the idea that TMP started off a second 5 year mission.
But since TMP came out so long after TOS, it was assumed that it took place that long after.
Then in TWOK, Kirk states it's 15 years after Space Seed (TWOK is).
But if you look at the actors, they appear, or are made to appear very young in TMP, so I sorta like the idea that it's just a couple of years after TOS, and the 2nd 5 year mission is on the new Enterprise.

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

I think the case for TMP being in the mid-to-late 2270s is a pretty strong one. No matter how much make-up is applied, Shatner and Doohan do look very much older than before (in turn, I bet Kelley looked old ever since his teen years, and Nimoy simply looked agelessly alien). And everything has changed - the people have gotten promotions, new uniforms, new gadgets, and a new ship. There's even a new captain for the ship.

On the other side of the balance, we have 2.5 years since Kirk logged star-hours, but no mention that these star-hours were logged aboard our beloved Enterprise, or during any adventure we would know of. We have the Enterprise being refitted for 18 months, but no indication of when the refit was started (perhaps after the last heroic three-year mission of the ship under the command of Captain Richmond E. Bagley?). And we know Kirk spent "just" five years out there, but nothing is said about how far in the past those five years were. Perhaps Kirk earned the brass on his shoulders by working behind a desk for the past six or seven years?

I doubt the new edition of the movie will give any more chronology hints. The stardates mentioned are of course one possible hint, but they proceed at a vastly different rate in TOS and in the movies 2-6, making it difficult to say which convention of either is followed by the first movie.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

The only problem with putting the second five year mission before TMP, is that the Enterprise gets a spangly new-refit, and then gets relegated to training duty awfully quickly. At least the other way, the Enterprise-refit gets a few years of active duty before becoming "old" again.

Posted by Obi Juan (Member # 90) on :

I agree with Timo. To me the most damning comment to my reasoning is the "five year mission.� Otherwise, all of the other stuff wouldn't mean crap. Kirk could have pulled another mission or had an extension on the original. But with the "five year mission,� the only real way that TMP could have occurred in '79, is if somebody else took a turn as captain (as Timo suggested). I find this highly unlikely, however.

Does anyone know if it was Roddenberry's intention to have TMP take place shortly after the end of the series?

Liam: If TMP happened in '79 and the Enterprise was put on training duty not too long before TWOK in '85 (funny how I choose to believe the Okudas on this point and not the other), it would've gotten six years of duty in its new and improved form. Which admittedly isn't as much, but there may have been reasons for the Enterprises early retirement. After all, if we believe that the Yorktown became the E-A, then we have an example of a ship the same age that was on active duty (presumably doing adventurous Kirk-like thing and not teaching cadets) for another eight years after the E-nil was assigned to training duty.

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

It could also be that the refit was a disaster. Everything aboard the ship was one big lousy compromise, and never worked the way it was supposed to. Later ships benefited from these early refit experiences so that either their refits were more successful, or then they were actually built from keel up - thus, they didn't have to be demoted to training duty like the experimental Enterprise.

All that said, I still basically tend to believe in the Okuda chronology. A 2271 TMP may make Kirk and Scott look deceptively old, but it basically fits the other facts seen on screen. AND it is what most novels use as the basis of their dating. If novels discuss a second 5-yr mission, it's usually after TMP and before ST2 (which only makes sense, because then it's less of a repetition of TOS, dramatically speaking).

Some minor juggling is of course still possible without disrupting either canon or the novels - perhaps TMP took place in 2272 or 2274? To safely give Kirk 2.5 star-hour-less years between the 2270 mentioned by Icheb and TMP, I'd rather go for 2273 as the TMP date. There's still room for a 5-yearer, and a bitter retirement for Kirk (a la "Generations" flashbacks), before he returns for ST2 in 2284 or so.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Daniel (Member # 453) on :

Who says the refit had to be a disaster? If Enterprise was one of the first refited to the updated configuration, then it follows that she would be quickly transferred to training ship status for all of the newer ships refitted, (or built form the keel-up), to the new specifications. She'd be older and have more quirks than the other ships, less worth to the fleet as the whole and better experience for trainees. Kind of like making today's USS Enterprise a training vessel for nuclear powered Nimitz-class vessels.