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Posted by Jack_Crusher (Member # 696) on :

I just watched the first scene in Star Trek 6, and found that Tim Russ was nowhere on the Excelsior's bridge, and there were no exploding console(s), like in the VOY episode, Flashback.

Posted by PopMaze (Member # 302) on :

Tim Russ wasn't even cast in ST6 because no one knew about Tuvok yet. But remember that Tuvok's Science station was near the front of the bridge. IIRC, the scenes from ST6 never showed that part of the bridge. For the scene at the end with the bridge crew standing by Sulu, it's possible Tuvok wasn't on duty at the time and therefore would not be present. Or he could be off to one side and the bridge camera didn't capture him in the frame. And the exploding consoles were part of events on Excelsior which were never portrayed in ST6 anyway. Flashback made it seem that Valtane died but for all we know, he might have survived. The episode never made it clear if he died or not. The virus could have just jumped to Tuvok as a precaution in the event that Valtane would die.

Posted by Stingray (Member # 621) on :

Is TUC out on DVD? If not, it would be cool if they digitally added him in there in that final scene.

Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :

Yeah, TUC is out on DVD. All they have is one feature: Theatrical Trailer. That sucks, doesn't it?

Posted by Dr Phlox (Member # 680) on :

I got it for recently and it does suck. At least the TVH DVD had that segment with Leonard Nimoy.

Posted by Stingray (Member # 621) on :

Wow, that does suck.

Maybe after X comes to DVD, they'll re-release all of 'em with some extra tidbits in some sort of set? ::crosses fingers::

Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :

My guess is that once TMP-SE comes out Paramount will wait and see how sucessful it is. If it makes a certain amount of money, they may go ahead and do TWoK-SE and so on. At least that's my reason for not buying any of the Trek movies on DVD yet.

Posted by Dr Phlox (Member # 680) on :

Speaking of contiunuity, what about Relics and Generations?

Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :

Scotty was too long in the transporter which caused damage to his memories.

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Yeah. In order to save "Relics" (a pretty good episode) from bashing because of minor continuity slipups (which in this case were the fault of the movie, not the episode), let's list the whole heap of errors in "Flashback" (a pretty bad episode).

Feel free to add more errors (which in this case were the fault of the episode, not the movie).

-Valtane a junior officer instead of a Commander
-Valtane supposedly dies, while in the movie, he lives
-Rand a Commander instead of a junior officer
-Rand claims it took her three years to make Ensign rank - why and how? The Academy takes four years or more. Why should somebody starting as an enlisted make faster progress?
-A few days pass between the Praxis explosion and Kirk's and McCoy's imprisonment, instead of six months as stated in the movie
-Tuvok, Valtane and a bunch of others sleep in their full uniforms, despite NOT having filled their gills with Romulan ale

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :

I never got the sleeping in few uniform thing either. If it were me, I would of at least taken off the jacket. Also get a decent pillow and sheets.

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

There's another little nit...not really a continuity thing, just a funny slip-up:

After the scene where all the junior officers are in their bunks and Tuvok is "arguing' with Valtane, the alarm goes off and they all get up to go back on duty. Tuvok sits up and tries desperately to get his tunic buttoned as he talks to Janeway. When the conversation is over and they get up to leave, the tunic comes undone again. I just thought that was funny.

And, as for that room they were laying down in, I guess I always thought of it as a ready room of sorts, or maybe a lounge. I doubt it was actual quarters. Rand walked right in as though it was a fairly common area.

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

That's what I thought of at first. But what sort of readiness do you maintain down on Deck 7 (as blatantly displayed by that silly sign visible through the doorway) when you are stationed on the bridge?

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Stingray (Member # 621) on :

quote:
Only a few years after releasing the last 8 Star Trek films on DVD without adding any extra features, Paramount is now considering creating special DVD editions of each movie after they've released 'Star Trek: The Motion Picture' in November.

::keeps fingers crossed::

http://www.trektoday.com/news/200801_04.shtml

Posted by Tahna Los (Member # 33) on :

It's understandable that Rand should be a Senior Officer while Valtane a Junior Officer, given that Rand is a long standing character of Trek. Besides, being a senior officer does not mean that only certain duties can be performed.

As for Rand being an Ensign in three years, consider Wesley. He was an Ensign when he went to the Academy. Saavik was a Lieutenant when she was in the Academy, as well as (conjecturally) James Kirk.

But the way I see things, the whole Flashback thing was a piss-poor excuse to bring Sulu back. Really, do you think Sulu would try to barge in to Klingon Space (phasers blazing) without a decent strategy like Spock? I'd expect better.

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

I don't buy the idea of Saavik being in the Academy in ST2, really, nor the idea that Kirk held rank before graduation.

And it still seems odd for Rand to need exactly three years to become an Ensign. She spent far more than three years in noncom duties before we first saw her (or a character played by GLW) with an officer's pin (in ST3 for a generic GLW character, in ST6 for a confirmed Rand sighting). Why single out any three years of that time, unless they are supposed to represent some sort of a "NCO-to-commission" course? And why would that course take so long when full Academy studies for a complete rookie take just a year longer?

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :

I doubt that the person in STIII was Rand:

This char had full commander-rank, another GWL-char (probably Rand) was a NCO in STVI, and finally Lt. JG Rand in TUC.

Posted by MeGotBeer (Member # 411) on :

Actually, Timo, it's completely possible if they were attending the Academy for advanced courses. Consider:

In the USN, prospective pilots will graduate the Academy with the rank of Ensign, and go on to flight schooling, where they will rise to Lieutenant (j.g.). All this during constant schooling.

If Command Courses required an applicant to first graduate the Academy with the rank of Ensign, and then, after (say) a two year service period aboard a ship or facility, enter Command School at the rank of Lieutenant (j.g.), it makes perfect sense ...

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Yes, this is what I'd imagine happened to Saavik. She wouldn't have been an undergraduate, but a real commissioned officer, just in for some additional training.

Kirk could have undergone similar training after his graduation as Ensign. He would have served aboard the Republic as part of that training, "several years" after his cadet days like he states. He'd then attend the Command School thingie seen in ST2, do the Kobayashi Maru, and also serve as an instructor for Gary Mitchell, while at Lieutenant (j.g.) rank. Only after that would he sail out with captain Garrovick and truly leave the Academy for the first time.

Note that only a select few people do Kobayashi Maru or a comparable test - the only known examples are Kirk and Saavik, while McCoy never took the test. It seems that the test is not part of the mandatory Academy curriculum, but an add-on of some sort. Of course, McCoy could be an exception just because he's a doctor - perhaps he never took SF Academy to begin with? But later-era doctors have been shown to go through the Academy. None have mentioned a no-win scenario final exam, but that isn't solid proof...

FWIW, ST2 also makes it look a bit like Spock never took a no-win scenario test, either. When dying, he speaks *conditionally* of Kirk now knowing how he *would* have done in a Kobayasi Maru scenario.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :

Spock actually states that he never took the Kobayashi-Maru test. ("What do you think of my solution?")

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Right. Thanks.

There might be several ways for an officer to gain command privileges. If one doesn't take the special course right after graduation and do the adjoining no-win scenario excercise, one might be able to accumulate command merit through regular service and do a lesser course at a later point. Or a series of lesser courses, giving partial command qualifications, as apparently was the case with Crusher and Troi. As we saw, Troi actually did a sort of Kobayashi Lite.

Whether one gets to do the big command course right away might have something to do with shirt color - perhaps only the TOS goldshirts and TNG redshirts do it sort of automatically, while Spock possibly was a blueshirt in/after the Academy? TOS Redshirts and TNG yellowshirts might suffer from limitations as well, since apparently Eddington could not get captaincy while wearing yellow.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by MeGotBeer (Member # 411) on :

Well, since Troi said she both went to the Academy, but also got her degree in psychology from the University of Betazed, it's clear that you don't have to go to Starfleet Academy for training in the field you have, just for your commission (one wonders if she had to do the whole 4 years, or an advanced course).

Posted by Toadkiller (Member # 425) on :

I'm in the US Navy so I'll apply current day models to this (which obviously may not apply but at least they are one way to handle it).

We have several catagories of officer and while they all hold the same ranks they do have special roles and different "privileges".

Unrestricted line officers (URL) are the most like TNG red shirts. They can hold pretty much any management job on a ship - from engineering to tactical to small craft officer. In fact they are expected to learn all aspects in route to command. (Pilots are also URL but the whole aviator/surface/submarine officer thing doesn't seem to carry over to trek so we'll ignore that for now). They have no limits on what sort of command they can have (that's the "unrestricted" part.

There are also "limited duty officers" LDO's who have a particular job (i.e. engineering) that they specialize in and that's all they do. If they are the engineer on one ship they'll be an engineer on their next one. (Also they are prior enlisted, not something I'd try to apply to Trek). LDO's seem a lot like most of the career "yellow shirts" on TNG. Some folks like Worf and Geordi switch from red to yellow - perhaps they take a "LDO" like job in exchange for some unknown reward? There is a move in the US military to allow officers to specialize in a field and not be "promoted" into management (i.e. "hey I like flying, don't promote me into a desk job") - perhaps a red shirt can move into a "yellow" job that suits them and step out of the command track? Navy LDO's can hold any rank - but are not allowed command of a ship. Thus, high ranking LDO's (there aren't many due to Navy specific reasons) tend to hold highly technical jobs ashore - and may in fact be in command ashore. Trek yellow shirts seem to also be held back in regards to ship command - however there is at least some route that lets you back into red (Data, Worf).

The third (major) type of Naval officers are in the various Staff Corps. These are (like yours truly) those in the "professions" like lawyers, doctors, civil engineers(Seabees), etc. They can also hold any rank (even Admiral ranks) - cannot command ships but can command say the Legal Center or a Hospital - something specific to their "Corps". These seem to link up with TNG blue shirts. A Staff officer that wanted to become a ship Captain would have to get out of the Staff Corps and get recommisioned as a URL - in theory possible but I've never heard of it happening. If fact it is usually the other way around (a URL going to law school and switching or something).

A LT, say, from any of the groups is basically the same as a LT from another in terms of rank (there is a complicated method of determining who outranks whom if there is two with the same date of rank, but that's beside the point).

Its only a model.

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

Toadkiller: Thanks for that info. I always love modern day Naval insight. I think what you're talking about carries over nicely to the Trek universe. However, the Trek universe seems able to ignore whatever rules the ranking system has when the script calls for it

I'd be interested in hearing that complicated method of determining who holds the higher rank, though

Posted by Toadkiller (Member # 425) on :

I guess by "complicated" I meant - "this post seems long enough already"

. Actually it works like this: positional authority (i.e. your relative jobs)>URL>LDO>Staff Corps all other things being equal (which would be a very odd situation). The Staff Corps are further broken down. All I really remember without looking it up is - Medical Corps>Dental Corps > Medical Service Corps > Nurse Corps.

So, a Medical Corps LT out ranks a Nurse Corps LT if both of their dates of rank are the same. However, a NC LT w/ DOR 1/1/01 outranks a MC LT with DOR 1/2/01. Of course a NC LCDR out ranks all LT's regardless of corps. The caveat of that being that the Staff officer can't take command of a warship so I suppose the LCDR NC would "advise" a URL junior officer (not likely to really happen).

I guess it is complicated. I have *never* seen it actually come down to figuring this out however - usually between date of rank and the authority given by your job it is sorted out. The military just sets up the rules so that someone is clearly and legally in charge regardless of the situation.

While we're at it - if all else is equal : Army rank> Navy rank > USMC rank > Air Force rank (IIRC).

TK (who is now tired) Out

Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :

Interesting. But. . .

quote:
Army rank> Navy rank > USMC rank > Air Force rank (IIRC)

There is an official hierarchy? Wow. If so, looks like it's based on the age of the service, sort of.

Posted by Stingray (Member # 621) on :

Um, no. I really don't think so. First off, what about the Coast Guard? Also, Department of Health and some other group (can't remember) get salutes by regular military personnel according to the regs. It never happens, but it says it on paper, so you'd have to figure those in somewhere.

The ranks are broken down into numbers like this:

Navy/Coast Guard = number rank = Army/Air Force/Marines
Ensign = O-1 = 2nd Lt.
Lt. JG = O-2 = 1st Lt.
Lt. = O-3 = Captain
Lt. Commander = 0-4 = Major
Cmdr. = O-5 = Lt. Colonel
Captain = O-6 = Colonel

Thusly, a Navy Lieutenent would salute an Army Major. An Army Captain would salute a Navy Captain, and so on. For those of the same rank it goes by date of service. Equal respect for each branch and all that. We're all on the same team after all.

Same setup for the enlisted ranks (though enlisted don't get saluted).

But even the military succumbs to common sense sometimes (though on comparatively pointless subjects). If at a complete loss for what to due, just show respect and courtesy due to the rank and you'll be fine.

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

I believe that Surgeons General were given some sort fo military rank. Is that what you were referring to with the Department of Health thought?

Posted by MeGotBeer (Member # 411) on :

They wear a military-looking uniform, although if they're saluted (at all) because of the uniform or because they're in a position of authority within the Gov't isn't clear. Do senators and/or congress(wo)men get saluted?

Posted by Stingray (Member # 621) on :

No, not the Surgeon General, it was a government agency and all the members in it, though it might not have been Dept. of Health. But it is something to do with health and public safety. My memory is quite rusty on the subject. Congress(wo)men do not get saluted to the best of my knowledge as they are part of the Legistlative branch of the government while the military exists as part of the Executive branch with the President as the Commander in Chief. Hence, he gets saluted. However, members of Congress do get gun salutes, though not 21.

And as an extra tidbit: Congressional Medal of Honor winners receive salutes by all members of the military no matter the winner's rank and the saluter's rank. An E-1 could win the Medal of Honor and then have to be saluted by all officers. Yes, he/she would even be saluted by the President of the United States.

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

The Surgeon General is the head of the Public Health Service, and it is arranged along military lines.

Posted by Toadkiller (Member # 425) on :

This has gone way off topic -huh?

Tuvok is a Vulcan (there that's ST Voy at least)

The Public Health Service (USPHS), Coast Guard, and NOAA for that matter are "uniformed services" not "military services" - they are not within the Department of Defense - the Coast Guard can be brought over to DOD and is generally called military but legally it is not. (Might be a similar arrangement that makes SF not "military" btw). All military services are uniformed but not all uniformed services are military. Not all members of the USPHS or NOAA are part of the uniformed services - but they make up the core of those agencies.

So - we have "Army style" ranks (2nd LT, 1st LT, Capt, Major, etc.) for the Army, Marines, and Air Force and "Navy style" ranks (ENS, LTJG, LT, LCDR, etc.) for the Navy, Coast Guard, USPHS, and NOAA. All officers of all uniformed services have the same "pay grades" (0-1, 0-2, 0-3, 0-4, etc.) - so the ranks are equal.

What I meant by my earlier post is that there is an "order of precedence" for the various military departments and that precedence is (again IIRC) Army - Navy - Marines - Air Force. Although the Navy/Marines may be switched now that I think about it. That does not mean that as a Navy officer I automatically salute all Army officers - the normal rules of rank apply, I salute those superior in rank (O-4 and up), pass with no salute those of my own rank (O-3) just a "hi - how's it going" basically - and return the salutes given to me by those I outrank 0-2 and below (although junior officers, in the Navy 0-4 and below, may or may not actually salute one another in a given situation depending on situation dependent social rules that you just sort of have to "feel" out - when in doubt follow the above rules).

So - the order of precendece only applies when there is no other method of sorting something out, or placing service flags or something like that.

Sorry for the confusion - for more on all this feel free to e-mail me off board!

Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :

Gene Roddenberry always maintained that Starfleet was not military, but a uniformed service., that like the Coast Guard, had military ranks and occasionaly, military actions
O'Brien stated that he still had to go to school to enlist, as did Simon Tarses in "Drumhead" Rand probably had to go through some training to become a yeoman, and was still enlisted as of Star Trek I, as a chief petty officer by her insignia and title.. not an ensign by this point... however, there were 14 years between The Motion Picture, and "The Search for Spock" where she appeared to be a lieutenant (or lieutenant commander? I'll watch it tonight.. she might have been wearing that strange lieutenant senior grade pin like Valeris in TUC, in between Full Lieutenant and Lt.Cmdr). Some noncanon sources say she recieved a field commission for experience gained on intelligence work, but it also seems likely she could have gone to command school, (kind of like how Corporal Johnnie Rico became a Third Lieutenant without doing his full college years, by going to accelerated officer training for enlisted in Starship Troopers [the book, not the eye-candy movie]). sometime in that 14 year gap. In Star Trek IV she was wearing a crewman jumpsuit, but this scene was cut from many versions and did not have rank insignia. Some officers still wore jumpsuits for efficiency sake, ill check a source for that from the Fletcher costume designs. So being a Commander, first officer of a captital ship in 2293, eighteen years after having been a chief petty officer and 27 years after being a fresh young able yeoman maybe not that far-fetched?

Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :

quote:
The Search for Spock" where she appeared to be a lieutenant

This char had a Commander-pin and wasn't Rand IMO.

quote:
she might have been wearing that strange lieutenant senior grade pin like Valeris in TUC, in between Full Lieutenant and Lt.Cmdr).

Valeris wore a Lt. Cmdr.-Pin (Her uniform was off the rack. That's why she wore the wrong pin). A Lt. SG-pin/rank doesn't exist.

quote:
In Star Trek IV she was wearing a crewman jumpsuit, but this scene was cut from many versions and did not have rank insignia.

I'm sure there were rank insignia (we just didn't see it). On her webpage GWL says that she was a CPO in STIV.

quote:
Some officers still wore jumpsuits for efficiency sake, ill check a source for that from the Fletcher costume designs

Commissioned Officers - normal uniforms
Noncomms - jumpsuits

quote:
So being a Commander, first officer of a captital ship in 2293

She was a Lt. Cmdr. in Flashback, but a Lt. JG in TUC. I think Tuvok has a very bad memory.

Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :

Hee hee.. i can see why the comics i read stuck with the 'she was undercover' explanation for her Starfleet Intelligence either pretending to be an officer, or more likely, pretending to be enlisted for a term.

I'll check TUC.. most every source (novel, comic) has her as the first officer years before flashback so its not an original idea from the crap show

Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :

Here:

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

Phwooaarrr!

Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :

In STIV in the credits she's listed as "Commander Rand." Since this is the case, I have no problem accepting that the character in STIII was Rand also, as she was a Commander as well. What doesn't make sense is that she's back to Lt. JG in STVI. What was she in "Flashback"?

Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :

quote:
In STIV in the credits she's listed as "Commander Rand."

This is obvious an error IMO. Credits aren't canon. Rand wearing a NCO jumpsuit is canon.

We just have to compare:

quote:
Scheme 1
Yeoman (TOS)
Chief (TMP)
Chief (TVH)
Lt JG (TUC)

quote:
Scheme 2
Yeoman (TOS)
Chief (TMP)
Commander (TSFS)
Chief (TVH)
Lt. JG (TUC)

S2 doesn't make much sense.

[ September 08, 2001: Message edited by: Spike ]

Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :

I'm sure the credits are based on what the character was referred to in the script. Besides, it was the the intention of TPTB to present all of the cast regulars of TOS as Commanders in the movies. (w/ the exception of Kirk, of course.)

Scheme #3:
Yeoman (TOS)
Chief (TMP)
Commander (TSFS)
Commander (TVH)
Lt. JG (TUC)
Lt. Cmdr. ("Flashback")

Maybe she was demoted sometime after TVH, and then was given a field commission by Sulu to Lt. Cmdr. after the beginning of TUC, corresponding with "Flashback."

???

[ September 08, 2001: Message edited by: The Mighty Monkey of Mim ]

Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :

quote:
it was the the intention of TPTB to present all of the cast regulars of TOS as Commanders in the movies.

Then I don't understand why they put her in this jumpsuit.

She wasn't a commander in TVH. This is as canon as the Enterprise-D being a Galaxy-class vessel.

I'm pretty sure, that Rand wore the Lt JG pin at the end of TUC. The Lt. Cmdr. pin is just a sloppiness (like Valtane's death).

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

"I'm sure the credits are based on what the character was referred to in the script."

In that case, our friendly neighbourhood communications officer was called "Uhuru" in ST VI.

"Besides, it was the the intention of TPTB to present all of the cast regulars of TOS as Commanders in the movies."

Except for Scotty. And Spock. And Sulu (in STVI).

And except for ST:TMP, where several of them are Lt Commander (and Checkov is only a lieutenant, I think).

Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :

quote:
This is as canon as the Enterprise-D being a Galaxy-class vessel.

Umm...

...is this supposed to make sense?

Posted by Woodside Kid (Member # 699) on :

I know! There's this rare disease called "rankconfusionitis" that only affects second tier characters like Rand and O'Brien.

Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :

Because no Star Trek producer has ever understood the concept of 'non-commissioned' because they cant write for characters that didnt get a four-year degree like they did maybe?

my scheme:

Yeoman (TOS)
Chief PO (TMP)
...finally made ensign! yay for officer's training
Lt Cmdr (TSFS)
Lt Cmdr (TVH) wearing a jumpsuit because it suited her
Cmdr (TUC & Flashback) Wearing the wrong pins because of a production error, even though she's listed in the credits as Commander. Because every single piece of literature thats come out associated with that appearance makes her the Excelsior's first officer.

By these rationale, Picard was demoted to Commander briefly in TNG but then repromoted between scenes by communique from Starfleet.. but we didnt mind because in the credits it still said Patrick Stewart as CAPTAIN Picard

Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :

***...still waiting to hear Spike's argument for why it's not canon that the Ent-D is Glaxy-class...***