$$Minor "Image in the Sand" and "Shadows and Symbols" (early season seven) spoilers follow$$

(GA means 'General Audience' and therefore no major spoilers, unless you're really behind.)

Now, I may have typed this up for no reason since my quantum mechanics and many-worlds theory-related stuff may be a tad out of date, but feel free to nitpick any flaws here.

Consider this: In "Emissary", the Prophets did not recognise the Sisko. They didn't understand linear time. They didn't live outside their little world. Then they meet Captain Benjamin Lafayette Sisko. Sisko teaches them all this.

Fair enough? They're an enlightened race now. They've come out of their proverbial shell after sending orbs out being their only form of communication for some time.

Next, we travel to "Profit Motive": They interfere with a society. Well, they're surely no introverts anymore!

In the sixth season's "Sacrifice of Angels", Sisko convinces the Prophets to interfere. (I suppose they learned from "Profit Motive" that interfering is bad. ) They stop the Dominion fleet of close to three thousand ships. Fair enough.

In the seventh season openers, we learn (along with Sisko) that the good captain was created by a Prophet taking Sisko's mother's place and ensuring he existed. Wait one minute. Behr, you're telling us that...? Hmm.

Well, let's look at this objectively: Sisko had to be created by the Prophets to exist since Sarah (his real mother, the one the Prophet "guided") never liked Joseph Sisko (his father) anyway. Therefore we have to assume they never would have gotten together.

So... Sisko had to tell the Prophets about linear time or else he never would have existed. Interesting idea, but improbable, because as we understand time now, causality paradoxes are impossible without branching into many-worlds-interpretation quantum mechanics. Many-worlds Quantum Mechanics cannot be proven to be factual or even probable.

Have I lost anyone yet?

Well, questions later.

So we can establish that Sisko had to exist to tell the Prophets about his form of existance or else he never would have existed. Good.

So.. what happens if Sisko died at Wolf 359? Or if he had left Starfleet like he considered doing after the Borg attack and the loss of his wife?

Simple: He never existed. He dies before "Emissary", and he therefore never existed, right? Strange paradox to be sure.

So, in one timeline, the Wormhole may never have been discovered (although it's likely Jadzia would have found it herself after some time). And if it was at some point, the Bajorans would have been wiped out along with most opf tghe Alpha Quadrant since the 2700 Dominion ships would have gotten through in "Sacrifice of Angels". In fact, without Sisko bribing Quark in "Emissary", Rom would probably never have stayed around and come up with the cloaked, self-replicating mines, dooming the Federation from the beginning.

That was Timeline A.

This is Timeline B: Timeline B branches off from Timeline A once Sisko meets the Prophets. Boom! All of history is changed in this reality. Sisko exists, and we see the series as it is. The Federation is saved from the 2700 ships, etc.

DS9 as a series is a reult of two different timelines, one brachning off the other and forming a second reality where the series as we know it is capable of existing.

Now I want to see an episode in which we see Timeline A of DS9. That would be interesting for something, in my opinion.

Now, that's all interesting, but here's my point: DS9 as a series, as we understand time, cannot happen.

Just a quick commentary. Well, quickish.

Oh, and one more question: Which one of these timelines is Voyager set in? There's evidence. Now go prove it.

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Doctor: "Run along. I'll reattach any severed limbs. Just don't misplace them." (Voyager: "The Killing Game")
 

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Game over man, game over! - Hudson(Aliens)

 

In "Caretaker", Voyager docks at DS9 before setting out to find the Maquis raiders. In one scene, we see Harry in the bar, thinking about getting something from Quark.

In "Emissary", Sisko bribes Quark to stay on the station -- therefore, if Quark is on the station in "Caretaker", he must be on the station in "Emissary", and stay after that episode.

It may be a tenous connection -- but it's there.
 

And Vortex thinks just like me!

There's also another bit that could be taken as evidence. Two actually, both season four.

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Doctor: "Run along. I'll reattach any severed limbs. Just don't misplace them." (Voyager: "The Killing Game")

[This message has been edited by Elim Garak (edited July 12, 1999).]
 

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WHO ARE YOU
 

I want to try a timeline...hopefully it will fit in better with the Prophet's POV.

Now: The Prophets exist in an eternal now, with no concept of past or future.

Emmisary: Sisko makes contact with the Prophets and explains the concept of linear time.

Then: The Prophets, gifted with a sense of understanding of linear time and the beings that inhabit it, decide to intervene on Bajor. They send Orbs, start a religion, send prophecies, arrange for Sisko's birth, etc.

No beginning, no end. The Emmisary isn't just a representative of the Prophets. He is essentially their creator.

From the Prophet's take on events, The Sisko is first on the timeline, with everything else following that. Now, Sisko can die before then in our timeline, but not theirs...so which is correct? Remember, time is relative.

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"And give me back my evil heart so I can see you as you are."
--
John Linnell
 

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"They don�t call it show business for nothing. This is an ugly, ugly, ugly, ugly town in many, many ways. But big f*cking deal. Big business is ugly. The world is ugly. Our job is to make our little piece of it better. Whenever you get into the general, it�s not going to be all beer and Skittles and Christmas trees."
-Ira Stephen Behr on the Moore fiasco

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"And give me back my evil heart so I can see you as you are."
--
John Linnell
 

And I always knew there was something about Ira Behr...

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Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue")
 

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Nice place to live now son
Where ya gonna run?
Understand where we're coming from;
Put down the gun.

[This message has been edited by Gaseous Anomaly (edited July 13, 1999).]
 

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HMS White Star (your local friendly agent of Chaos:-) )

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"The past is the future, the future is the past. It all gives me a headache."
 

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http://frankg.dgne.com/
"We spent the entire summer resting up, looking for some vital link missing in the big picture. Bill said he had found it, but in fact he had lost it." - TMBG
 

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Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue")
 

Meanwhile, back at the Ranch...

My take on it is that Sisko meets the Prophets in 'Emissary', which is their first taste of life outside the Celestial Temple.(that sounds WAY better than "wormhole", I don't care what anyone says)

Point to note: I'm telling this from the Prophets point of view.

THEN, they have Sisko thundering through the Celestial Temple in 'Sacrifice of Angels', where they realise they cannot let him die. And NOW they decide to begin interfering with "corporeal matters". They now destroy the Dominions fleet within the Celestial Temple, then continue to get themselves involved in "corporeal matters".
Now they start sending out Orbs, and start treating certain Bajorans to insights of the future, including that fella from 'Accession', whom they kept as a future "test" for Sisko, along with discovering B'Halla. They then look through Time, and realise that to ensure Sisko exists, they must possess his mother to make sure that the impregnation goes through as planned.

I haven't delved into the always fascinating notion of "What if...?", because if I did, I'd be here till Tuesday.
As our Taoiseach says, "Dat's dat, den."

(I just got my exam results back. 3 1st Class Honours out of 3! Congratulate me. Now.)

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Nice place to live now son
Where ya gonna run?
Understand where we're coming from;
Put down the gun.

But I don't think the prophets went back in time to alter Sisko's life after they met him in the wormhole. I think a more likely explanation is that the prophets were "playing dumb" in a sense when they first met Sisko, pretending for his benefit that they didn't understand his concepts of linear time and so on. These beings live outside of time, and so can see the entire future and past, and apparently have this plan all laid out, a plan which required Sisko to think that this was the first contact the prophets had had outside the celestial temple. The very existence of the orbs, I believe, demonstrated that the prophets had knowledge of the regular universe when they first met Sisko. And after all, Siskos very existence required the interference of the prophets in the life of his mother, so they must have known about him before he made the first trip into the wormhole, otherwise he wouldn't have existed.

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"But, it was so artistically done."
-Grand Admiral Thrawn

[This message has been edited by Chimaera (edited July 19, 1999).]
 

Remember, in the immortal words of M. Doughty "You say correlation is not causation."

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"We kid around a lot about people who are cyclopses, but seriously; if you're a mythic figure you've got challenges that no one should have to deal with."
--
John Flansburgh
 

I think I've just either confused myself or let Sol confuse me...

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Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue")
 

Hobbes
9907.20

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Got Trek?
Federation Starship Datalink

So here we have three possibilities: More powerful entities set up a causality loop; The Prophets played dumb; Some of the Prophets actually don't know what's going on, while others do. Any others?

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"It was an accident, officer. I was cleaning my fingernails. With a hunting knife. And he ran into me. Backwards. Fourteen times."
- B. Hill
 

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"We kid around a lot about people who are cyclopses, but seriously; if you're a mythic figure you've got challenges that no one should have to deal with."
--
John Flansburgh
 

The "prophets play dumb for Sisko's benefit" explanation is the one I think works the best. But that's just my unqualified opinion, it's too early to argue temporal mechanics.

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"But, it was so artistically done."
-Grand Admiral Thrawn

I watched "Destiny" last nite, the episode where they set up a communications relay in the Gamma Quadrant. In it, events of Trakor's prophesy start comining true and Kira suggest that the Prophets, being non-linear, could of known the events first then tell Trakor so he could make the prophesy.

In the end of the episode Sisko is talking to the Vedak about another prophesy regarding the Emissary saying, "The Emissary will face a fiery trial where he must choose..." and cut off there. This brings up two suggestions, either he predicted The Reckoning, where he'd have to choose the life of his son in order to defeat the Pah-Wraiths and give Bajor peace and prosperity. Or it could of been a prediction of "What You Leave Behind" and Sisko's battle with Dukat in the Fire Caves, hense the fiery part of the prediction.

This seems to go along with the possiblity of DS9 being a causality paradox as well.

Hobbes
9907.22

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Got Trek?
Federation Starship Datalink

[This message has been edited by Hobbes (edited July 22, 1999).]
 

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Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue")
 

This idea of a "heirarchy" within the Celestial Temple seems a bit, well, rubbish.

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Nice place to live now son
Where ya gonna run?
Understand where we're coming from;
Put down the gun.

I'm saying they put him in a place, but they didn't know when in history. Get that?

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It's all about the Pentiums, Baby!

I like the theory about the prophets not knowing when they put Siskor. When Sarah-prophet left the temple to inhabit Ben's mother, she would have discovered linear time, if only by her joining with Ben's mother. But she never returned to the temple until Shadows and Symbols, so she couldn't tell the other Prophets. Still doesn't explain the causality loop, though.

Unrelated theory: the Prophets do exist in our time, but never sensed it until Sisko showed up, as it imposes no limitations on them.
 

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It's all about the Pentiums, Baby!