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» Flare Sci-Fi Forums » Star Trek » General Trek » Is DS9 a Causality Paradox? (GA) (Page 1)

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Author Topic: Is DS9 a Causality Paradox? (GA)
Elim Garak
Plain and simple
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Good question.

$$Minor "Image in the Sand" and "Shadows and Symbols" (early season seven) spoilers follow$$

(GA means 'General Audience' and therefore no major spoilers, unless you're really behind.)

Now, I may have typed this up for no reason since my quantum mechanics and many-worlds theory-related stuff may be a tad out of date, but feel free to nitpick any flaws here.

Consider this: In "Emissary", the Prophets did not recognise the Sisko. They didn't understand linear time. They didn't live outside their little world. Then they meet Captain Benjamin Lafayette Sisko. Sisko teaches them all this.

Fair enough? They're an enlightened race now. They've come out of their proverbial shell after sending orbs out being their only form of communication for some time.

Next, we travel to "Profit Motive": They interfere with a society. Well, they're surely no introverts anymore!

In the sixth season's "Sacrifice of Angels", Sisko convinces the Prophets to interfere. (I suppose they learned from "Profit Motive" that interfering is bad. ) They stop the Dominion fleet of close to three thousand ships. Fair enough.

In the seventh season openers, we learn (along with Sisko) that the good captain was created by a Prophet taking Sisko's mother's place and ensuring he existed. Wait one minute. Behr, you're telling us that...? Hmm.

Well, let's look at this objectively: Sisko had to be created by the Prophets to exist since Sarah (his real mother, the one the Prophet "guided") never liked Joseph Sisko (his father) anyway. Therefore we have to assume they never would have gotten together.

So... Sisko had to tell the Prophets about linear time or else he never would have existed. Interesting idea, but improbable, because as we understand time now, causality paradoxes are impossible without branching into many-worlds-interpretation quantum mechanics. Many-worlds Quantum Mechanics cannot be proven to be factual or even probable.

Have I lost anyone yet?

Well, questions later.

So we can establish that Sisko had to exist to tell the Prophets about his form of existance or else he never would have existed. Good.

So.. what happens if Sisko died at Wolf 359? Or if he had left Starfleet like he considered doing after the Borg attack and the loss of his wife?

Simple: He never existed. He dies before "Emissary", and he therefore never existed, right? Strange paradox to be sure.

So, in one timeline, the Wormhole may never have been discovered (although it's likely Jadzia would have found it herself after some time). And if it was at some point, the Bajorans would have been wiped out along with most opf tghe Alpha Quadrant since the 2700 Dominion ships would have gotten through in "Sacrifice of Angels". In fact, without Sisko bribing Quark in "Emissary", Rom would probably never have stayed around and come up with the cloaked, self-replicating mines, dooming the Federation from the beginning.

That was Timeline A.

This is Timeline B: Timeline B branches off from Timeline A once Sisko meets the Prophets. Boom! All of history is changed in this reality. Sisko exists, and we see the series as it is. The Federation is saved from the 2700 ships, etc.

DS9 as a series is a reult of two different timelines, one brachning off the other and forming a second reality where the series as we know it is capable of existing.

Now I want to see an episode in which we see Timeline A of DS9. That would be interesting for something, in my opinion.

Now, that's all interesting, but here's my point: DS9 as a series, as we understand time, cannot happen.

Just a quick commentary. Well, quickish.

Oh, and one more question: Which one of these timelines is Voyager set in? There's evidence. Now go prove it.

------------------
Doctor: "Run along. I'll reattach any severed limbs. Just don't misplace them." (Voyager: "The Killing Game")


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Mucus
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Tell me if I'm missing something but didn't the Dominion only come through the wormhole because Starfleet was poking around in the Gamma Quadrant. The Dominion would never have found the wormhole by themselves if I remember correctly (which I may not).

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Game over man, game over! - Hudson(Aliens)


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Vortex
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I think I know which timeline Voyager is in, if I follow your logic:

In "Caretaker", Voyager docks at DS9 before setting out to find the Maquis raiders. In one scene, we see Harry in the bar, thinking about getting something from Quark.

In "Emissary", Sisko bribes Quark to stay on the station -- therefore, if Quark is on the station in "Caretaker", he must be on the station in "Emissary", and stay after that episode.

It may be a tenous connection -- but it's there.


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Elim Garak
Plain and simple
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Mucus: Probably true, but since it was Jadzia that discovered the Wormhole scientifically, it's safe to assume she could do that without Sisko telling her where to plot the course.

And Vortex thinks just like me!

There's also another bit that could be taken as evidence. Two actually, both season four.

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Doctor: "Run along. I'll reattach any severed limbs. Just don't misplace them." (Voyager: "The Killing Game")

[This message has been edited by Elim Garak (edited July 12, 1999).]


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Kosh
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It's those damn antiprotons from "All Good Things" They screwed up everything.

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WHO ARE YOU


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Sol System
two dollar pistol
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Antiprotons are everywhere...

I want to try a timeline...hopefully it will fit in better with the Prophet's POV.

Now: The Prophets exist in an eternal now, with no concept of past or future.

Emmisary: Sisko makes contact with the Prophets and explains the concept of linear time.

Then: The Prophets, gifted with a sense of understanding of linear time and the beings that inhabit it, decide to intervene on Bajor. They send Orbs, start a religion, send prophecies, arrange for Sisko's birth, etc.

No beginning, no end. The Emmisary isn't just a representative of the Prophets. He is essentially their creator.

From the Prophet's take on events, The Sisko is first on the timeline, with everything else following that. Now, Sisko can die before then in our timeline, but not theirs...so which is correct? Remember, time is relative.

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"And give me back my evil heart so I can see you as you are."
--
John Linnell


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The_Tom
recently silent
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Nah... Tasha Yar caused it all to happen...

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"They don�t call it show business for nothing. This is an ugly, ugly, ugly, ugly town in many, many ways. But big f*cking deal. Big business is ugly. The world is ugly. Our job is to make our little piece of it better. Whenever you get into the general, it�s not going to be all beer and Skittles and Christmas trees."
-Ira Stephen Behr on the Moore fiasco



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Sol System
two dollar pistol
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*LOL*
Beer and Skittles and Christmas trees?

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"And give me back my evil heart so I can see you as you are."
--
John Linnell


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Elim Garak
Plain and simple
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Sol: Neither is correct, but so far as I understand things, if Sisko dies before then in our timeline, he never reached theirs.

And I always knew there was something about Ira Behr...

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Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue")


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Gaseous Anomaly
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Hmm. Interesting theories. And me here thinking GA was me.

------------------
Nice place to live now son
Where ya gonna run?
Understand where we're coming from;
Put down the gun.

[This message has been edited by Gaseous Anomaly (edited July 13, 1999).]


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HMS White Star
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O God it sounds like that espisode where Sisko decided he wasn't the Emissary, and that other guy was the emissary, and then Sisko decided he was the Emissary (not that I remember the name of the episode) but then I remember one important quote from "The Prophets work in mysterious ways", that's my answer and I sticking to it .

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HMS White Star (your local friendly agent of Chaos:-) )


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Omega
Some other beginning's end
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Look, I'm literally getting a headache from reading all this (or is that from staring at the screen for six hours?). The Prophets are non-linear. We can not understand them. Don't try.

**********

"The past is the future, the future is the past. It all gives me a headache."


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Aethelwer
Frank G
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That's boring. We want to understand everything!

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http://frankg.dgne.com/
"We spent the entire summer resting up, looking for some vital link missing in the big picture. Bill said he had found it, but in fact he had lost it." - TMBG


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Elim Garak
Plain and simple
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Yes. Understanding is the key to knowledge.

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Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue")


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Gaseous Anomaly
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Lest we forget the awe-inspiring creed of Mortal Kombat 3: There is no knowledge that is not power.

Meanwhile, back at the Ranch...

My take on it is that Sisko meets the Prophets in 'Emissary', which is their first taste of life outside the Celestial Temple.(that sounds WAY better than "wormhole", I don't care what anyone says)

Point to note: I'm telling this from the Prophets point of view.

THEN, they have Sisko thundering through the Celestial Temple in 'Sacrifice of Angels', where they realise they cannot let him die. And NOW they decide to begin interfering with "corporeal matters". They now destroy the Dominions fleet within the Celestial Temple, then continue to get themselves involved in "corporeal matters".
Now they start sending out Orbs, and start treating certain Bajorans to insights of the future, including that fella from 'Accession', whom they kept as a future "test" for Sisko, along with discovering B'Halla. They then look through Time, and realise that to ensure Sisko exists, they must possess his mother to make sure that the impregnation goes through as planned.

I haven't delved into the always fascinating notion of "What if...?", because if I did, I'd be here till Tuesday.
As our Taoiseach says, "Dat's dat, den."

(I just got my exam results back. 3 1st Class Honours out of 3! Congratulate me. Now.)

------------------
Nice place to live now son
Where ya gonna run?
Understand where we're coming from;
Put down the gun.


Registered: Apr 1999  |  IP: Logged
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