How good is this episode - it was just on here again tonight.
I've forgotten how much I loved Beverly episodes.
Just a little thing about the Bozeman - Soyuz class - retired over 80 years ago as of 2368.
There was always confusion as to the reason behind the causality loop - that it was the Bozeman that caused it - and that they themselves dragged the Enterprise into their own causality loop. Well - the truth started out easy to follow in the episode - but the final comments by Picard towards Bateson confuse the situation by having Picard insinuate that the Bozeman has been in it's own causality loop for the past 96 years.
WRONG Picard.
Geordi clearly states in the second-last loop that the Enterprise has been drawn in by the distortion by the Space-Time continuum. That is the Bozeman was always going to come through the temporal rift into the 24th century. They were never in a causality loop.
The ENTERPRISE was in a causality loop for 17.2 days - since they were pushed into one due to the Bozeman coming through and hitting them
Correction - the Bozeman WOULD have been in a causality loop - but not for 96 years only the 17.2 days since the E-D was in one.
OH! And How come the E-D nacelle gets blown to smithereens - while the Bozeman's nacelle(s) have NO damage occuring to them!?!
Good episode.
Anyone got a grab of the Bozeman's bridge - I know it's old-ish but how old?
And I think the year was 2272 or 2273 that the Bozeman was from - what does that correspond with in the TOS movie timeframe? I around which movie?
Andrew
Posted by StyroFoam Man (Member # 706) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: OH! And How come the E-D nacelle gets blown to smithereens - while the Bozeman's nacelle(s) have NO damage occuring to them!?!
I would assume that it was because someone dropped the ball in the VFX department. I mean, they have stock footage of a Miranda nacelle getting shattered. I know they couldn't use footage from TWOK, but they did at least have a starting point.
And another thing!
WHY did the explosion of the entire ship begin at the TOP OF THE SAUCER?! All the damage occured to the engines, so the explosion that destroyed the ship should have been centered in the secondary hull! GRRRR!!
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Did it? I do recall the E-D spinning out of control - at least in the last two times. 2nd last - you see the starfield move, the last explosion - you see it from the outside.
Maybe an explosion ripped through power conduits and the SIF was weakest at the top?
Andrew
Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
It's all early 1990's SFX technology for you.
Posted by SoundEffect (Member # 926) on :
I thought I was the only one with that interpretation! I'm glad someone else sees it as i do. You're right that the entire event took place over 17.4 days. The Bozeman came through the rift (and travelled through time) instantly, but with each explosion, the Bozeman was 'reset' and travelled through the rift again.
Did you mean bridge interior or exterior? The exterior is the Phase II series bridge with the dual turbofifts in the back.
Bateson reports the year is 2278, which according to the Trek Chronology, happens after the Motion Picture (2271) but before The Wrath of Khan (2285).
Posted by The Red Admiral (Member # 602) on :
Originally, there were plans to have Saavik on the ship. She would have been standing next to Bateson on the Bozeman bridge. Of course, if they'd stuck to the 2278 timeframe, it would've caused a major continuity error (a paradox even) Posted by SoundEffect (Member # 926) on :
Originally also, it was supposed to be from the Enterprise-C's timeframe or thereabouts and the USS Bozeman was intended to be another class of starship with Ambassador Class design aesthetics. Apparently Rich Sternbach designed such a vessel but budgetary considerations had them opt for a simple existing model redress, so we never ended up seeing an Ambassador variant. Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Was that from that show? I thought the Ambassador era ship was for another episode and that it was a TOS era vessel they were hoping for for this episode??
BTW I meant the Bridge interior - it looked as if it had quite a high sloping ceiling (which fits that different bridge module) - and the aesthetics of it looked more TOS-ish Enterprise - i.e. Red railing 'picture screens' around the bridge. Would have been nice to have seen a TOS alien on that bridge!! I guess the TWOK uniforms are more well-known - but it would have been interesting to have TMP uniforms - even though they probably wouldn't be that flattering on Kelsey Grammer - or anyone for that fact.
They could have used another TOS actor instead of Saavik - Rand - no. Umm... Riley!?! Posted by Starship Millennium (Member # 822) on :
IIRC, the Bozeman was supposed to be a TOS Constitution class with the TOS uniforms and bridge, but it was too expensive to rebuild the sets and the model. The Ambassador-era ship in question is probably the Pegasus from the titular episode, which was supposed to be a Cheyenne class relative.
And the bridge was just a simple redress of the Enterprise battle bridge/generic guest bridge set. Complete with LCARS-style Okudagrams, which are about a decade too early. Oh well. Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Ok, I thought I read it was going to be of the connie-era not an actual CONSTITUTION class.
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
I also remember reading it as TOS Connie era, not an actual Connie class.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I agree with most things here, but...
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: I've forgotten how much I loved Beverly episodes.
One; it was a Beverly episode?
And two; you love Beverly episodes?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by StyroFoam Man:
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: OH! And How come the E-D nacelle gets blown to smithereens - while the Bozeman's nacelle(s) have NO damage occuring to them!?!
I would assume that it was because someone dropped the ball in the VFX department. I mean, they have stock footage of a Miranda nacelle getting shattered. I know they couldn't use footage from TWOK, but they did at least have a starting point.
And another thing!
WHY did the explosion of the entire ship begin at the TOP OF THE SAUCER?! All the damage occured to the engines, so the explosion that destroyed the ship should have been centered in the secondary hull! GRRRR!!
A better question is why the Bozeman is about 300% too large for a Miranda class variant in that shot? The Bozeman should total about 3/4 the Enterprise's nacelle length! (of course the real reason is the VFX dept using two models of differing scales in the same shot without resorting to a composite....) Look at the Miranda at the end of Generations to see the correct scale.
Posted by Starship Millennium (Member # 822) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: One; it was a Beverly episode?
And two; you love Beverly episodes?
Technically, it could be. She played an important role in getting the plot advanced.
And what's wrong with Beverly episodes? You didn't like "The High Ground," "Remember Me," "Ethics," "Suspicions," or "Descent"? Just my opinion, but those were all standout episodes from TNG.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Unfortunatly, DRAMATIC IMPACT wins out again over NITPICKISHLY ACCURATE. If a correctly scaled Miranda-type hit the Enterprise, it wouldn't have looked nearly as bad.
Actually, I'll be clearer. If a Miranda-variant flew straight into the Enterprise, it would look really, really cool. And it would be really, really expense. I wa impressed enough with the impact and explosion. To have the Bozeman crash into the Enterprise nacelle (or other area) and crumple properly would have involved building another model to blow up, and I think they'd already blown the budget doing a Galaxy class one.
Actually, a thought strikes me. Was it a custom built model they blew up? Or was it an AMT model? Or was it (maybe) the tiny two foot model used for distance shots in season 1 that I don't think was ever used again?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Well, they already had to film the explosion from several angles to make the story visually intresting (each time the ship blows we see another angle), so why not just destroy a modified Miranda class AMT model? .....mabye there was no time to do a more extensive shot of the two ships colliding...and we already know that the budget was tight enough to make using the Miranda a forgone conclusion. Too bad they did not have the ability to do DS9 style effects with the exploding Bozeman and Enterprise! I'd love to see the Bozeman collide with the Enterprise's saucer or deflector. Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
speaking/thinking of effects - I'd love to see an effect of a Galaxy class starship ramming DS9 (accidently of course) With the saucer slicing through the docking ring and then the habitat ring... and a docking pylon being wrenched away and left floating into space!! Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Another thought about the direct hit on the Galaxy nacelle in C&E - when I watched it again last night - for the first time in quite a while the first thing I was reminded of - jolted back to was the destruction of the Odyssey!!
Was anyone totally flipped out by the destruction of the Odyssey!?! I was. I saw "The Jem'Hadar" at a convention in 1994 - and a whole hall filled with people watching an episode is one awesome experience - especially when everyone is gasping/crying/holding their breath at the end of "The Jem'Hadar" and the destruction of the Odyssey!!
Posted by Starship Millennium (Member # 822) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: Was anyone totally flipped out by the destruction of the Odyssey!?! I was. I saw "The Jem'Hadar" at a convention in 1994 - and a whole hall filled with people watching an episode is one awesome experience - especially when everyone is gasping/crying/holding their breath at the end of "The Jem'Hadar" and the destruction of the Odyssey!!
Yep... part of the reason I refused to watch DS9 until Worf returned. Fortunately, I didn't miss much... Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
*double and typo filled post, see the correct one below*
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
Funny you should mention the Odyssey, because I remember reading somewhere that they used one of the blown up AMT E-D models for the explosion and wreckage of the Odyssey. They were lucky that someone had decided to save one of those models.
Posted by SoundEffect (Member # 926) on :
I understood that they caused explosions on a mock-up Galaxy Class for the Odyssey. I remember reading that Adam Howard, the Quantel Harry animator saw two explosions in the film: the deflector and the nacelle cap, and it was this 'happy accident' that made him decide that it would be cool to have a pice of the deflector blow out the cap. He animated the junk flying back so the effect of one explosion caused the other.
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
I meant after that. The big explosion the ripped the Odyssey apart. They had composited the E-D AMT model over the Odyssey in the same angle so they could do the final explosion and have the saucer and the port nacelle in damaged condition and flying away.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Starship Millennium:
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: Was anyone totally flipped out by the destruction of the Odyssey!?! I was. I saw "The Jem'Hadar" at a convention in 1994 - and a whole hall filled with people watching an episode is one awesome experience - especially when everyone is gasping/crying/holding their breath at the end of "The Jem'Hadar" and the destruction of the Odyssey!!
Yep... part of the reason I refused to watch DS9 until Worf returned. Fortunately, I didn't miss much...
No NO NO NO NO, I meant flipped out as in - overcome/overwhelmed/awe-struck/amazed/though how cool is that!/OMG! sort of stuff! Not - this is shite let me watch Earth 2.
It made me want to see Season 3... BADLY.
Plus you missed some of Trek's best in Season 3. Great stuff there (along with some crud like Fascination and Meridian).
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Couple of things I wanted to get in on this thread:
1) The Ent spins after the nacelle blows out in every run through the loop. Even when we don't see it happen, Riker is always thrown to the floor as a result of it.
2) I believe that I read somewhere a quickbuild (or several of them) was used for the exploding ship in C&E. My guess would be that they used AMT models.
3) Perhaps the Bozeman *did* sustain damage to their nacelle. After it impacts the Ent, we never see it again. Maybe the effects just weren't quite so instantaneous.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Well, they already had to film the explosion from several angles to make the story visually intresting (each time the ship blows we see another angle), so why not just destroy a modified Miranda class AMT model?
Two reasons. One, you're wrong. There were only two "explosion shots". The one seen at the beginning, where the ship spins around and then explodes, with the nacelles flying off; and another, where the ship is stationary and appears to blow out from inside. For that one, an explosion effect was laid over the model, so no bits flew off.
There's also the fact that the explosion and collision are completely different shots. The collision is the same every time, and obviously uses the studio models. In most of the sequences, we then see the Enterprise spinning, which is probably also the studio model. The only time the fake model would have been used is the flying apart explosion at the end.
The Enterprise is REALLY BIG in the frame when the Bozeman hits, and the Bozeman itself is also fairly large. I doubt they could have gotten away with using the AMT models at that close range.
Also, was the Reliant model out in 1991? I didn't think it came out until about 94.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
i doubt the miranda-reliant model was ever in any danger of being damaged.. the scene where it hits the 1701-D was almost certainly composited (accounting for the differing scales of the two models).. and then we dont actually see it touched by anything..
the biggest damage it took was having awful paste-ons placed on it (necessitating additional paste-ons in its next appearance, Emissary, to cover the spots where junk was crapped onto it.. and preventing it from being shown as an original modification Miranda..).. plus having godawful registry mistakes pasted onto it also.. which is worse, IMO..
Posted by SoundEffect (Member # 926) on :
quote:Originally posted by CaptainMike: .. plus having godawful registry mistakes pasted onto it also.. which is worse, IMO..
What registry mistakes are you referring to??
---- The filming models weren't shot together. The Enterprise-D used was 4ft long, the Bozeman 5ft. You can tell it's the large Miranda redressed because of the bridge section used from Phase II series, the 4-footer Nebula Class recast parts and the Stargazer miniature recast parts.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
the NCC-1940/NCC-1840 conundrum, as well as the Brittain/Brattain fiasco.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I stand corrected. ....but if the two models were not filmed togeather, then it's silly for the Bozeman to be soooo out of scale.
Posted by Fleet-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
Wait a second... I read in the DS9 Companion that the Galaxy Class they blew up in the Jem H'addar was one of the mock up ships blown up for either Cause and Effect or Contagion. It was definately larger than the AMT/Ertl models in 1/1400 scale.
Posted by SoundEffect (Member # 926) on :
Brittain/Brattain thing shouldn't be a conundrum. Brattain was a scientist, The ship was a science vessel. The plaque read Brattain, the label behind the captain's chair said Brattain. The only guff was the model. I dismiss that as easy as the Yamato 1305-E fiasco.
The Bozeman from every pic I've seen was labelled 1941 allaround. Bad screen caps make it look as though there's an 8 on the bottom. Anybody got a screencap of the Bozeman's underside from DVD?
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
quote:Originally posted by SoundEffect: Brittain/Brattain thing shouldn't be a conundrum. Brattain was a scientist, The ship was a science vessel. The plaque read Brattain, the label behind the captain's chair said Brattain. The only guff was the model. I dismiss that as easy as the Yamato 1305-E fiasco.
*points out that he lives on the Brittain Road*
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Even DVD caps are incapable of revealing whether the Bozeman had NCC-1941 on the saucer underside or not. I have no idea where this idea came from, but from the clearest caps it looks as much like a 9 as an 8 to me. The only thing that's for sure is that the nacelles and the top of the saucer (the latter having been seen clearly in the episode) were labeled NCC-1941.
-MMoM Posted by Tahna Los (Member # 33) on :
Ack Registries!!!! I must move this thread before it is too late!!!!
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)