Ever since I first saw the TOS episode "Whom the Gods Destroy", I have been trying to figure out what a fleet captain is.
Does Garth of Izar have the rank of Fleet Captain, or is his proper rank Captain and his position title is Fleet Captain. Looking at the job description of a Port Captain on the NOAA web site and the use of term "fleet captain" by some sailing clubs, and seems that this position is responsible for ensuring that a fleet of ships is properly provisioned, manned, and maintained. But this person is not in command of the actions of the fleet, like an Admiral.
However, dialog in the TOS episode suggests that Garth of Izar was in command of the fleet during the Battle of Axanar. Was Garth an Admiral with the title of fleet captain? Is this an Izarian rank?
Some fan fiction and PBEM role-playing games have created pips for the rank of Fleet Captain, and placed this rank above a Captain, and below the flag ranks.
Anyone have any comments or ideas about this puzzler?
Posted by Griffworks (Member # 1014) on :
Well, going directly from commentary taken in WGD, I was under the impression that Garth was given the "job" of Fleet Captain, in lieu of an admiral being available for the battle - not an actual rank title. Same with Pike in "Menagerie" - he was given an honorary position as Fleet Captain, tho don't recall if we see a rank insignia on him. Is one given in the SFTM? "Franz" Joseph Schnaublet had an eye for detail and if one was ever shown, he likely put it in there. Don't have my copy with me, so can't check at the moment....
Anyhow, to my knowledge, there is no contemporary title in the US Navy, tho have no clue about other countries navies. I'd go w/it being a job title rather than rank.
Posted by Captain Serek (Member # 1038) on :
I always thought of Fleet Captain as an actual rank and as the various SIMmers, PBEM's and other role playing groups do, it is centered right between captain and commodore. In TOS, it's 3 solid stripes, it does not exist in the movies or TNG-VOY although there is much conjrcture on Sloane's rank. But that's all conjecture and fanboyishness. BTW Pike also held the same rank in "The Menagerie" so it wasn't a one time mention.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
it seems to be a rank (like Comedore) that was phased out by the TNG era. Sisko was in command of a fleet in several episodes, and was acting the role of "Fleet Captain" but was not assigned any diffrential rank. Same with Picard's Tachyon sensor net.
Posted by Griffworks (Member # 1014) on :
All that means is that the job description of Fleet Captain might have gone out of practice, just like the phased out the rank of Commodore....
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
The rank insignia of Fleet Captain Pike were something of a non-issue since he was built in to the furniture from neck down. I guess Starfleet could have painted the stripes as cheat lines to the wheelchair, but they didn't.
Three stripes for Fleet Captain is possible but a little confusing. In ST:TMP (and AFAIK Enterprise), three closely spaced solid stripes are what forms the wide central stripe in flag ranks (i.e. Kirk has three plus one for Rear Admiral, Forrest has one plus three plus one for Vice Admiral).
Of course, in TOS the wide stripe was made of special cloth, not of three stripes. And three separated stripes would be distinguishable from three joined ones. But it still is a bit dubious.
Franz Joseph incorrectly gives the three separated stripes as the Commodore rank marking. Bob Fletcher's scheme for TOS movie rank pins is sometimes fleshed out with a captain's pin that has extra arrowheads, and variously called the Commodore or Fleet Captain pin. It's a nice design, and since Fletcher already has a Commodore pin, it would best serve as a Fleet Captain one.
There are pros and cons for assuming that Fleet Captain is a regular rank. One of the big cons (apart from us so seldom hearing about it, and it not being based on The Real World) is that it's one more rank for Kirk and Janeway to skip on their ludicrously fast track to flag rank.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
I thought Commodore was a title given to Army or Marine officers with the rank of "Captain" while onboard a naval vessel to avoid confusion with the ship's own Captain.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote: Griffworks Is one given in the SFTM? "Franz" Joseph Schnaublet had an eye for detail and if one was ever shown, he likely put it in there. Don't have my copy with me, so can't check at the moment....
No it was not given as a rank, all that is given is as follows:
Lieutenant: 1-line
Lieutenant Commander: 1-line, 1-dash
Commander: 2-lines
Captain: line-dash-line
Commodore: 3-lines
Admiral: 4-lines
quote:Captain Serek In TOS, it's 3 solid stripes, it does not exist in the movies or TNG-VOY although there is much conjrcture on Sloane's rank.
No, 3 solid stripes is Commodore...
quote: Jason Abbadon Sisko was in command of a fleet in several episodes, and was acting the role of "Fleet Captain" but was not assigned any diffrential rank.
I know this is slightly different...but still along the same lines of this discussion....but General Martok was given the job of "Supreme Commander" of the 9th(?) Fleet yet still retained his rank of General.
Posted by Warped1701 (Member # 40) on :
David: There is a huge difference between Marine/Army/Air Force Captains and Navy Captains. In the Marines/Army/Air Force, Captains are 0-3, while a Navy Captain is 0-6. "Bumping" an 0-3 to an 0-7 is quite a leap, IMHO.
I don't know if temporarily "bumping" a Captain to the rank of Commodore while onboard another Captain's ship is standard naval practice, but a number of SF novels I've read use it. It seems reasonable as a courtesy of the Captains position while aboard ship, but may not be part of the protocol anymore.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
in "Starship Troopers" Heinlein said that if there was an infantry captain on a navy vessel, the o-3 captain would be referred to as 'major' in title only, so as to not be referred to as captain.. but im pretty sure this probably only held in official functions like dinners and ceremonies, when the navy and infantry were segregated they probably referred to each other business as usual.. and if there was another o-6 _naval_ captain aboard, then _they'd_ be referred to as commodore.. anyone know any actual navy practice?
BTW, TOS commodore wasnt 3 solid stripes.. it was a large solid stripe the size of 3 stripes put together, with stripes on the border and braid in between
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:BTW, TOS commodore wasnt 3 solid stripes.. it was a large solid stripe the size of 3 stripes put together, with stripes on the border and braid in between
Well then, that means that this...
quote: Is one given in the SFTM? "Franz" Joseph Schnaublet had an eye for detail and if one was ever shown, he likely put it in there.
...is not at all true (personally, I believed that most of that (SFTM) was drawn up from TOS, myself)...as that is where I got the aforementioned:
Lieutenant: 1-line
Lieutenant Commander: 1-line, 1-dash
Commander: 2-lines
Captain: line-dash-line
Commodore: 3-lines
Admiral: 4-lines
...rank scheme.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
I haven't seen WGD in quite a while, but I don't recall seeing Garth wearing his Starfleet uniform at all in the episode... so there'd be no point in trying to get a rank stripe scheme.
I've never seen any of TAS, but wasn't Robert April seen as a Fleet Captain (or was he a commodore?) in one of those eps?
I figure that the rank of "Fleet Captain" might have been a special, honorary rank for some officers? It just went out of use by the time of DS9, probably...
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
quote:in "Starship Troopers" Heinlein said that if there was an infantry captain on a navy vessel, the o-3 captain would be referred to as 'major' in title only, so as to not be referred to as captain.. but im pretty sure this probably only held in official functions like dinners and ceremonies, when the navy and infantry were segregated they probably referred to each other business as usual.. and if there was another o-6 _naval_ captain aboard, then _they'd_ be referred to as commodore.. anyone know any actual navy practice?
Yeah, the part about Marines is correct, although they are referred to as Major all the time they are on board ship. Not sure what happens with two Navy Captains on board but I'll try to find out.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
quote:Originally posted by MinutiaeMan: I've never seen any of TAS, but wasn't Robert April seen as a Fleet Captain (or was he a commodore?) in one of those eps?
April was a Commodore. And a (or the?) Federation 'ambassador-at-large'.
Posted by Revanche (Member # 953) on :
I've vacilated between a Fleet Captain being the equivalent of a Commodore (US Navy billet, regardless of rank, who is in charge of a division or dquadron of two or more ships) and being a Type Commander (i.e. charged with the welfare, maintenance and supply of a given type - destroyers, frigates, etc - of ship, in a purely administrative role).
[ June 16, 2003, 05:02 AM: Message edited by: Revanche ]
Posted by Darkwing (Member # 834) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wraith:
quote:in "Starship Troopers" Heinlein said that if there was an infantry captain on a navy vessel, the o-3 captain would be referred to as 'major' in title only, so as to not be referred to as captain.. but im pretty sure this probably only held in official functions like dinners and ceremonies, when the navy and infantry were segregated they probably referred to each other business as usual.. and if there was another o-6 _naval_ captain aboard, then _they'd_ be referred to as commodore.. anyone know any actual navy practice?
Yeah, the part about Marines is correct, although they are referred to as Major all the time they are on board ship. Not sure what happens with two Navy Captains on board but I'll try to find out.
Actually, I've never seen that practiced in real life. My first two ships were smallboys, so the issue never came up, but my last was a flagship, so we had many naval captains and a number of marines of vasrying ranks aboard. I never heard any bumped up a grade for courtesy. Heinlein knew his RL military stuff, but in Starship Troopers, he made his own version to suit his story, so I don't think there's any connection to the real world. That said, I like the idea and used it when I ran ST rpgs.
Posted by Darkwing (Member # 834) on :
quote:Originally posted by Revanche: I've vacilated between a Fleet Captain being the equivalent of a Commodore (US Navy billet, regardless of rank, who is in charge of a division or dquadron of two or more ships) and being a Type Commander (i.e. charged with the welfare, maintenance and supply of a given type - destroyers, frigates, etc - of ship, in a purely administrative role).
That's pretty much the same conclusion I came to. I decided it can be both. A captain (O-6) in charge of a task force can be given the courtesy title, to distinguish him from the rest, and it can also refer to a captain or commodore/RADM in a Tycom slot, just as a CDR (O-5) in command of a ship is called captain, despite his rank).
Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
Keep in mind that ight now I am a Plane Captain in the Navy. Does that make me an actual O-6/Captain in the Navy. No it's a job title for the enlisted to launch a plane. All we do is prep the plane for the officers, examine the plane for any post-flight damage (for DTAs, TAs, and possibly Turns), and launch the plane in the end.
Just a thought.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
i definitely think Fleet Captain is only a title, given to someone of the rank of O6 Captain or O7 Commodore (or RADM2).. sems like it might even be a do nothing position.. Pike and Garth didnt seem to be active starship commanders, Pike was training cadets, and Garth didnt seem to have commanded a starship recently.. perhaps you give a captain the title 'fleet captain' and he becomes a kind of figurehead, doing PR, press interviews, launching ships, training cadets, chairing committees and the such
but i sincerely doubt there is an actual rank between O6 and O7.. its too cumbersom to add to the system, (although some rank insignia schemes seem open to it being added)
when i compiled the insig chart i added a fleet captain wherever one would fit, but i added its a title not a rank, so its not an extra grade or anything
I still think it falls in the same category as Martoks "supreme commander" role given to him following the retake of DS9.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
perhaps you give a captain the title 'fleet captain' and he becomes a kind of figurehead, doing PR, press interviews, launching ships, training cadets, chairing committees and the such
A captain who's not actually commanding anything, perhaps?
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
I always figured that fleet captain was an semiofficial rank AND title used to convey seniority of service over other captains.
Hear me out.
Kirk & Picard are both VERY good at thwat they do. They HATE the idea of being promoted (leaving aside Kirk's 17-year forced admiralization) & would much rather be commanding a ship than a distict, starbase, fleet, squadron, or what have you. However, we can't simply let these highly seasoned & even more highly respected officers just be told what to do by any tool with flag rank. Hmm. What to do?
Thus the fleet captain limbo area was born. You take a senior command officer who's well-known, well-respected, & has earned his chops more than most; Garth, Pike, Kirk, Picard, & to some degree even Sisko have all proven themselves in this area. It's a rank insofar as seniority goes--Captain Picard who is technically Fleet Captain Picard can order Captain Everyman of the Starship Piddlydeeds around--but it's a title & job as well, so they can simply be addressed as captain.
As for Pike becoming "fleet captain of Constitution-class vessels" or whatever it was, there may be a codicile that allows for FCPTs to command a small squadron, wing, or fleet in an area that they are familiar with. Thus, Pike--who was familiar with Connies--held that post. Perhaps he superceded the newly-promoted-to-Commodore Robert April.
Posted by StarCruiser (Member # 979) on :
I think it's a "brevet" rank. Meaning it's assigned when needed - temporary under most conditions.
Basically, you have a squadron of ships thrown together in an emergency and one captain - the most experienced/senior captain present - is picked to command the "fleet". Hence, "Fleet Captain".
If there was a true Commodore present, unless he/she was not a field commander, they would be picked automatically as the squadron commander.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
quote: Actually, I've never seen that practiced in real life. My first two ships were smallboys, so the issue never came up, but my last was a flagship, so we had many naval captains and a number of marines of vasrying ranks aboard. I never heard any bumped up a grade for courtesy. Heinlein knew his RL military stuff, but in Starship Troopers, he made his own version to suit his story, so I don't think there's any connection to the real world. That said, I like the idea and used it when I ran ST rpgs.
Yeah but that's the US navy; I'm pretty sure the practice is still in use in the RN. Who have many strange and wierd traditions... Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
So, in "Equinox", Janeway would have been a FCPT and Ransom just a regular CPT?
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
So it would seem, not that 2 ships constitutes a fleet . However, with that logic, everything we've seen in DS9 would be null, as it seems that Sisko was the Fleet Captain during the retaking of DS9...but certainly he couldn't have been the most seasoned or highest ranking captain there...in which case, it would be an assigned role, unless there was a situation as in Equinox where regulations serve the assignment.
Posted by Darkwing (Member # 834) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wraith:
quote: Actually, I've never seen that practiced in real life. My first two ships were smallboys, so the issue never came up, but my last was a flagship, so we had many naval captains and a number of marines of vasrying ranks aboard. I never heard any bumped up a grade for courtesy. Heinlein knew his RL military stuff, but in Starship Troopers, he made his own version to suit his story, so I don't think there's any connection to the real world. That said, I like the idea and used it when I ran ST rpgs.
Yeah but that's the US navy; I'm pretty sure the practice is still in use in the RN. Who have many strange and wierd traditions...
Except that I'm a Quartermaster. We maintain and train folks on tradition, as well as navigation. It's not in any book on naval customs that I've seen, I thought it might have been an old RN naval custom, but since 'show a leg' and dead horse are mentioned, among others, it'd be mentioned also. So no, I doubt that it's RN.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
It is but only when the Marine SO is a captain. Which is vanishingly rare these days. I imagine it fell out of use in the late 19th century anyway so...
And there are many differences between USN and RN (such as how you guys managed to pick up an Army subalterns' rank). Posted by Darkwing (Member # 834) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wraith: It is but only when the Marine SO is a captain. Which is vanishingly rare these days. I imagine it fell out of use in the late 19th century anyway so...
And there are many differences between USN and RN (such as how you guys managed to pick up an Army subalterns' rank).
Yes, that one surprises and confuses most ensigns when I tell them - they surprisingly rarely make the connection to the national flag being referred to as the ensign.
So, since none of the customs and traditions books I've seen in the USN mention that courtesy, can you recommend any good RN titles/authors to look up?
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Well, to be honest I can't really remember exactly where I read/heard about it. In fact I'm fairly sure it was during a lecture of some description, probably when I went down to HMS Victory and Warrior. It's possible that Osprey might have it in one of their books but they tend to be more on the technical side. Sorry I can't be more help.
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wraith: Well, to be honest I can't really remember exactly where I read/heard about it. In fact I'm fairly sure it was during a lecture of some description, probably when I went down to HMS Victory and Warrior. It's possible that Osprey might have it in one of their books but they tend to be more on the technical side. Sorry I can't be more help.
I have definitely heard of that tradition before, but I don't know where I heard it either...
And I went to Victory and Warrior last Friday and didn't hear it, so it was probably somewhere else. Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Just to pitch in, the last time I asked someone in the US Navy about "Fleet Captains", he told me it was a term used to refer to officers at the O-6 rank who were assigned to desk/shore duty. If this is the case, Pike seems to have gotten a lateral promotion. Poor guy.
--Jonah
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
. However, with that logic, everything we've seen in DS9 would be null, as it seems that Sisko was the Fleet Captain during the retaking of DS9...but certainly he couldn't have been the most seasoned or highest ranking captain there...in which case, it would be an assigned role, unless there was a situation as in Equinox where regulations serve the assignment.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)