posted
Ever since I first saw the TOS episode "Whom the Gods Destroy", I have been trying to figure out what a fleet captain is.
Does Garth of Izar have the rank of Fleet Captain, or is his proper rank Captain and his position title is Fleet Captain. Looking at the job description of a Port Captain on the NOAA web site and the use of term "fleet captain" by some sailing clubs, and seems that this position is responsible for ensuring that a fleet of ships is properly provisioned, manned, and maintained. But this person is not in command of the actions of the fleet, like an Admiral.
However, dialog in the TOS episode suggests that Garth of Izar was in command of the fleet during the Battle of Axanar. Was Garth an Admiral with the title of fleet captain? Is this an Izarian rank?
Some fan fiction and PBEM role-playing games have created pips for the rank of Fleet Captain, and placed this rank above a Captain, and below the flag ranks.
Anyone have any comments or ideas about this puzzler?
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posted
Well, going directly from commentary taken in WGD, I was under the impression that Garth was given the "job" of Fleet Captain, in lieu of an admiral being available for the battle - not an actual rank title. Same with Pike in "Menagerie" - he was given an honorary position as Fleet Captain, tho don't recall if we see a rank insignia on him. Is one given in the SFTM? "Franz" Joseph Schnaublet had an eye for detail and if one was ever shown, he likely put it in there. Don't have my copy with me, so can't check at the moment....
Anyhow, to my knowledge, there is no contemporary title in the US Navy, tho have no clue about other countries navies. I'd go w/it being a job title rather than rank.
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posted
I always thought of Fleet Captain as an actual rank and as the various SIMmers, PBEM's and other role playing groups do, it is centered right between captain and commodore. In TOS, it's 3 solid stripes, it does not exist in the movies or TNG-VOY although there is much conjrcture on Sloane's rank. But that's all conjecture and fanboyishness. BTW Pike also held the same rank in "The Menagerie" so it wasn't a one time mention.
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posted
it seems to be a rank (like Comedore) that was phased out by the TNG era. Sisko was in command of a fleet in several episodes, and was acting the role of "Fleet Captain" but was not assigned any diffrential rank. Same with Picard's Tachyon sensor net.
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posted
All that means is that the job description of Fleet Captain might have gone out of practice, just like the phased out the rank of Commodore....
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posted
The rank insignia of Fleet Captain Pike were something of a non-issue since he was built in to the furniture from neck down. I guess Starfleet could have painted the stripes as cheat lines to the wheelchair, but they didn't.
Three stripes for Fleet Captain is possible but a little confusing. In ST:TMP (and AFAIK Enterprise), three closely spaced solid stripes are what forms the wide central stripe in flag ranks (i.e. Kirk has three plus one for Rear Admiral, Forrest has one plus three plus one for Vice Admiral).
Of course, in TOS the wide stripe was made of special cloth, not of three stripes. And three separated stripes would be distinguishable from three joined ones. But it still is a bit dubious.
Franz Joseph incorrectly gives the three separated stripes as the Commodore rank marking. Bob Fletcher's scheme for TOS movie rank pins is sometimes fleshed out with a captain's pin that has extra arrowheads, and variously called the Commodore or Fleet Captain pin. It's a nice design, and since Fletcher already has a Commodore pin, it would best serve as a Fleet Captain one.
There are pros and cons for assuming that Fleet Captain is a regular rank. One of the big cons (apart from us so seldom hearing about it, and it not being based on The Real World) is that it's one more rank for Kirk and Janeway to skip on their ludicrously fast track to flag rank.
posted
I thought Commodore was a title given to Army or Marine officers with the rank of "Captain" while onboard a naval vessel to avoid confusion with the ship's own Captain.
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quote: Griffworks Is one given in the SFTM? "Franz" Joseph Schnaublet had an eye for detail and if one was ever shown, he likely put it in there. Don't have my copy with me, so can't check at the moment....
No it was not given as a rank, all that is given is as follows:
Lieutenant: 1-line
Lieutenant Commander: 1-line, 1-dash
Commander: 2-lines
Captain: line-dash-line
Commodore: 3-lines
Admiral: 4-lines
quote:Captain Serek In TOS, it's 3 solid stripes, it does not exist in the movies or TNG-VOY although there is much conjrcture on Sloane's rank.
No, 3 solid stripes is Commodore...
quote: Jason Abbadon Sisko was in command of a fleet in several episodes, and was acting the role of "Fleet Captain" but was not assigned any diffrential rank.
I know this is slightly different...but still along the same lines of this discussion....but General Martok was given the job of "Supreme Commander" of the 9th(?) Fleet yet still retained his rank of General.
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posted
David: There is a huge difference between Marine/Army/Air Force Captains and Navy Captains. In the Marines/Army/Air Force, Captains are 0-3, while a Navy Captain is 0-6. "Bumping" an 0-3 to an 0-7 is quite a leap, IMHO.
I don't know if temporarily "bumping" a Captain to the rank of Commodore while onboard another Captain's ship is standard naval practice, but a number of SF novels I've read use it. It seems reasonable as a courtesy of the Captains position while aboard ship, but may not be part of the protocol anymore.
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posted
in "Starship Troopers" Heinlein said that if there was an infantry captain on a navy vessel, the o-3 captain would be referred to as 'major' in title only, so as to not be referred to as captain.. but im pretty sure this probably only held in official functions like dinners and ceremonies, when the navy and infantry were segregated they probably referred to each other business as usual.. and if there was another o-6 _naval_ captain aboard, then _they'd_ be referred to as commodore.. anyone know any actual navy practice?
BTW, TOS commodore wasnt 3 solid stripes.. it was a large solid stripe the size of 3 stripes put together, with stripes on the border and braid in between
quote:BTW, TOS commodore wasnt 3 solid stripes.. it was a large solid stripe the size of 3 stripes put together, with stripes on the border and braid in between
Well then, that means that this...
quote: Is one given in the SFTM? "Franz" Joseph Schnaublet had an eye for detail and if one was ever shown, he likely put it in there.
...is not at all true (personally, I believed that most of that (SFTM) was drawn up from TOS, myself)...as that is where I got the aforementioned:
Lieutenant: 1-line
Lieutenant Commander: 1-line, 1-dash
Commander: 2-lines
Captain: line-dash-line
Commodore: 3-lines
Admiral: 4-lines
...rank scheme.
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posted
I haven't seen WGD in quite a while, but I don't recall seeing Garth wearing his Starfleet uniform at all in the episode... so there'd be no point in trying to get a rank stripe scheme.
I've never seen any of TAS, but wasn't Robert April seen as a Fleet Captain (or was he a commodore?) in one of those eps?
I figure that the rank of "Fleet Captain" might have been a special, honorary rank for some officers? It just went out of use by the time of DS9, probably...
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quote:in "Starship Troopers" Heinlein said that if there was an infantry captain on a navy vessel, the o-3 captain would be referred to as 'major' in title only, so as to not be referred to as captain.. but im pretty sure this probably only held in official functions like dinners and ceremonies, when the navy and infantry were segregated they probably referred to each other business as usual.. and if there was another o-6 _naval_ captain aboard, then _they'd_ be referred to as commodore.. anyone know any actual navy practice?
Yeah, the part about Marines is correct, although they are referred to as Major all the time they are on board ship. Not sure what happens with two Navy Captains on board but I'll try to find out.
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quote:Originally posted by MinutiaeMan: I've never seen any of TAS, but wasn't Robert April seen as a Fleet Captain (or was he a commodore?) in one of those eps?
April was a Commodore. And a (or the?) Federation 'ambassador-at-large'.
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posted
I've vacilated between a Fleet Captain being the equivalent of a Commodore (US Navy billet, regardless of rank, who is in charge of a division or dquadron of two or more ships) and being a Type Commander (i.e. charged with the welfare, maintenance and supply of a given type - destroyers, frigates, etc - of ship, in a purely administrative role).
[ June 16, 2003, 05:02 AM: Message edited by: Revanche ]
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