A post in another forum reminded me of the factoid that Gene Roddenberry considered "some aspects" of Star Trek VI to be non-canon. Does anybody know which, and why?
Marian
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
I thought it was V, not VI. And.. Well, everything.
Mark
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Marian's right. The Chronology says that 'parts of Star Trek V and VI' were considered non-canon. Possibly the Operation: Retrieve part of VI. And V was just generally a crap movie.
Posted by kmart (Member # 1092) on :
Well, a lot of GR's criticisms of V have to do with Shatner getting to do a God story when GR's own was rejected back in '75, plus he was pissed about how he was kept out of the loop on what the story was going to be until late in the process, after full scripts had been written.
So GR was more predisposed to hate V than was the case on the previous couple films, plus, after the release, it was popular to knock V anyway (at least for those of you who think the movie was about plot and continuity as opposed to being about the lead characters ... it's easy for me to let a lot of messed up issues in V ride simply because they really did the big 3 justice, which was a smart choice considering that IMO, they weren't doing such a good job telling sf stories ... by that point they were better off playing to the strengths that still were in evidence.)
As for the non-canon aspect on these movies, I'm pretty sure that the Okuda mention of it comes from Richard Arnold, since he was representing GR for a lot of issues (like reining in -- as in, "ruining" -- many novels and comics of that era.) That would include for TREK V the too-easily-reachable center of the galaxy (perhaps that contributes to the notion of decanonizing the Animated Series, since they went to the core in an episode of TAS as well) and Spock having a brother.
For TUC, there are lots of aspects he objected to. The story repeated in a couple of the tell-alls is that GR wanted something like 15 minutes of cuts, basically making humans less involved in the conspiracy, plus cutting way down on the racism in the lines. I can't imagine that if he'd lived more than the 36 hours he lasted after seeing TUC that he'd have raised a public stink over it, since he had plenty of opportunity to do that on V and didn't really bury it pre-release ... he'd have probably just sent his memo around for everybody to ignore or pay lip service to and that would have been that, pretty much how it went down anyway (I think the theatrical version with the cut 3 minutes might be a genuflection in GR's direction, since it trims conspiracy angle stuff and lessens human involvement in the conspiracy.)
GR had plenty of time to bitch about TUC before shooting even started ... Meyer walked out of a meeting with him when he started carping about Saavik (changed to Valeris) as traitor, and later on Meyer said GR didn't have a hand in creating Saavik and shouldn't have input on the character (kinda odd that Meyer didn't mind when Nimoy totally undermined his view of Saavik by retroactively making her full-vulcan and controlled when they recast for III, though, isn't it?)
I interviewed Meyer via phone the day after TUC was greenlit, and he was about as caustic and barbed as any interviewee I've ever come across ... at the time, it was practically a case of hero worship being dashed on the rocks, it really wiped me out. I never understood his 'tude till years later, when I realized he had been pretty much an emotional basket case from the beating-up he'd taken over getting the picture going, from GR and from the studio. Plus, according to one 'net acquaintance of mine who, it turns out, knew Meyer a bit socially back then, Meyer's wife died around this same time, so I guess if she was ill during this period that would definitely have messed with his mind some.
That interview also was a complete reversal from what I expected based on my conversations with somebody from his office, who set up the interview in response to a query letter I'd written to Meyer. The office person (I don't think it was Flynn at this point, but I'm not sure) said that Meyer had really enjoyed the letter -- I had written it in a kind of self-conscious style that echoed the formal way Meyer wrote some of CONFESSIONS OF A HOMING PIGEON, and I guess he picked up on that --and wanted me to come in THAT DAY to talk about Trek and maybe work as an assistant on the picture. He didn't realize I was living 400 miles away until I pointed that out, but this guy still seemed to think that Meyer would want me even if I took a leave of absence from the job I was at and came down ... nothing more ever was mentioned after the Meyer interview, and I don't know if I blew it during the interview or if by then Nimoy's kid had already been assigned that job (which was a good gig for him, since he built on that and wound up with an impressive TV directing career.)
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote:The Chronology says that 'parts of Star Trek V and VI' were considered non-canon.
Apocryphal, not non-canon.
Posted by kmart (Member # 1092) on :
quote:Originally posted by Spike:
quote:The Chronology says that 'parts of Star Trek V and VI' were considered non-canon.
Apocryphal, not non-canon.
You're right there, but the references about TAS are, I'm pretty sure, including wording to the effect of it being decanonized. Not sure if that was in ST THE MAG or someplace else, though.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
I'm kind of grumpy about that. Parts of TAS are vastly more painful than "Spock's Brain", but there were enough good elements that the series as a whole did not and does not deserve to be "de-canonized" (however one does that -- this isn't the Catholic Church). "The Counter-clock Incident" and "Yesteryear" are actually really damn good, albeit too short, and the existence of the Caitians has been unofficially confirmed through Star Trek IV... Poor treatment all round.
--Jonah
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
One small thing Gene opposed to, in TUC (though not nearly as damning as the above) was giving Sulu a (the) first name "Hikaru"...
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Hadn't "Hikaru" been Sulu's unofficlal first name for years as that point? I'm sure it pops up in some of the 80s novels (along with "Nyota Uhura", to be sure).
I always wonder why Chekov was so special as to be the only one of the "small 3" to get a first name. And a middle name! Before McCoy!
Posted by djewell (Member # 1111) on :
^^Cause he was a Rusky. Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Re: Meyer: Presumably the Star Trek VI special edition will have his commentary (unless his feelings towards it are still raw enough to preclude this). Should be interesting.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I think Hikaru had been around for while. As I recall, it had been in the comics and around fandom in general.
Posted by CaptainMike20X6 (Member # 709) on :
since 1979.. i believe i read that Roddenberry was consulted when "The Entropy Effect" was written as to his approval of thae name. he agreed.
Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
So, racism and conspiracy by Federation members, and maybe Sulu's first name (got a source or a reference for that, FG?). Thanks for the information, everybody. I'd always wondered.
I guess I can see where GR's coming from, if his vision of the future was all about humanity having risen above that kind of thing. I wonder what he would have made of A. C. Crispin's novel "Sarek," if he'd lived to read it, since it put the blame on a Romulan plot using mental influence by Romulan-bred Vulcans.
Hmm, maybe Crispin knew about GR's objections and added that subplot to deliberately allay them...
Marian
Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :
Ironic that VI is perhaps the movie containing very important pivotal events in the Trek History.
Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
kmart: Very interesting. That's the first time I get an idea of GR's objections to ST VI (other than a general "it destroys his vision").
And about canonicity of ST V/VI vs. TAS. While the Encyclopedia as such cannot be *the canon*, it represents canon. I mean, the Okudas wouldn't write this very thick and usually very reliable book, include all kinds of references, only to add user notes, which mark TAS as non-canon and certain events of ST V/VI too. The second edition corrected some errors (namely introduction of selected non-canon facts) made in the Encyclopedia I and the Chronology, so the motivation and goal is clear.
This would make the two movies bascially canon, but I have no problem to disrespect a few troublesome facts, like I don't have the problem with "Spock's Brain" or "Threshold" either.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
The encyclopedia doesn't mark certain events in ST V and VI as non-canon. It says that Roddenberry had a problem with them, but as far as the book (and the general practise of "canon" with regards to Star Trek), V and VI are as canon as any other movie, and I really need to find some synonyms for "canon".
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: I really need to find some synonyms for "canon".
"kosher"?
seriously though, all of the dictionary references seem to point at the word "law", otherwise there are no thesaurical references to the word.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
Personally, while I liked what TUC was trying to do, I thought it was a ham-fisted way of doing it. The movie fell pray to my biggest complaint with Star Trek: that it wants to touch on important issues, but it's only willing to do so by telling the audience that it's deep, not by showing any depth itself. The quotes from Shakespeare, which should have served as literary allusions to the themes being explored, are overused to the point that they club you over the head not with a message, but merely as the filmmakers showing you they've read it...or at least used Bartlett's familiar quotations.
The racism displayed is also too heavy handed...it would have been more shocking to see it come out with subtlety, allowing the characters themselves to be able to see it for the first time by hearing it from the lips of their supposedly enlightened compatriots.
And Scotty's "I bet that Klingon bitch killed her father!" still makes me cringe.
Posted by Capt.Blair245 (Member # 1113) on :
quote:Originally posted by MrNeutron: And Scotty's "I bet that Klingon bitch killed her father!" still makes me cringe. [/QB]
He said that?
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote: Originally Posted By Capt.Blair245 He said that?
You call yourself a Trek fan?! You should be able to recall all references from all episodes and movies to fit in around here.
BTW, it was right after Valeris slid down the strippers pole and shook the wall in the torpedoe room and informed Spock and Scotty that Azetbur was named Chancellor. Then came the whole, "Klingons don't have tear ducts" reference.... Posted by djewell (Member # 1111) on :
That happened? J/K.
How do they keep their eyes moist??
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Well, who says that Klingon eyeballs need to be? (Though I'm sure we've seen more than a few shots of Klingons with remarkably dewey expressions for a tearless species.)
My favorite thing about Star Trek VI, and something for which I am willing to forgive nearly any fault, is its political nature. That is to say, not its allegorical political nature, but the way in which the film involves itself in the fictional politics of Star Trek. Always my favorite thing.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I loved the space battle parts and it's always cool to see an Excelsior class (I can almost overlook the complete lack of phasers in the movie...almost) but the rest really blew. The shape-shifter stuff is really tough to even watch and the racist comments make Starfleet seem like the Galactic Empire more than Star Trek. Spock mind-rapes Valaris for information (he'd sure not do that on TOS). All the Shakespere stuff is terrible...just awful. I'm not suprised Gene considered it apocryphal.
Best part of the movie: the ending. It was well handled and a good send off for the original crew.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
The racist comments weren't by everyone. McCoy is pretty quiet, with the only notable comment by him during the dinner being "That's not true". And he immedietly wants to go over to Kronos One to help the injured, regardless of whether they are Klingons. Uhura's pretty quiet too. Chekov does make that "Guess who's coming to dinner" quip, but that was so brilliant, I'll allow it. And Kirk does have his reasons. Having your son murdered will cloud your judgement.
We only see two Enterprise crewman making actual out and out racist comments. And, guess what? They turn out to be murderers. So it's a bit unfair to use them as a typical example.
And yes, Spock wouldn't mind rape someone in TOS. But TUC isn't TOS. It's about 25 years later. And, guess what? People change. TOS Spock wouldn't force a mind meld like that, but I can completely see the TWOK Spock, or the TUC Spock (who are the most similar ones, considering that Spock was a bit out of it in TVH and TFF) doing it.
Posted by Capt.Blair245 (Member # 1113) on :
quote:Originally posted by Futurama Guy:
quote: Originally Posted By Capt.Blair245 He said that?
You call yourself a Trek fan?! You should be able to recall all references from all episodes and movies to fit in around here.
Sorry FG, I'm 13! I grew up thinking Star Trek was started by a bald English/French guy... Not some fat,old geezer with more ego than brains...
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
13??!! Good God, you were born the year of Locutus!
This place certainly isn't for kids....for many many reasons. Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Star Trek VI also includes the single greatest McCoy scene ever.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
A clip in the Star Trek 25th Anniversary Special shows the TUC dinner scene being filmed, and reveals snippets of the dialogue prior to editing, notably a biting line by Brigadeer Kerla, accusing, �You hypocritically presume that your democratic system gives you a moral prerogative to force other cultures to conform to your politics.�
The film�s screenplay reveals the original structure of the dinner scene. As edited in the final film, it seems the Enterprise crew is arguing with the Klingons, but, as the script reveals, it was written so that it starts out as an argument with the Klingons, and ends up with the Enterprise crew arguing amongst themselves!
Here�s select text from the script. Material used in the final film is boldfaced (some of it was altered slightly).
CHANG Come now, Captain,, this dinner is off the record: in space all warriors are cold warriors.
SCOTTY We have never tried to.....
KERLA You hypocritically presume that your democratic system gives you a moral prerogative to force other cultures to conform to your politics.
McCOY That's not true.....!
KERLA No?
Uhura turns to the Klingon next to her - all tact.
UHURA General, are you fond of Shakespeare?
He looks at her, his hands and mouth full of food. Ugh!
Chekov pursues.
CHEKOV Ve do not impose democracy on others. Ve do believe that every planet has a sovereign claim to human rights.
AZETBUR (Spits) "Human rights". Even the name is racist. The Federation is basically a "Homo Sapiens" only club.....
Spock reacts to this. Chang is amused.
CHANG Present company excepted, to be sure...
UHURA Well, I suppose we're not perfect.
SCOTTY (rising) Don't let them put words in your mouth! I haven't served 30 years in the engine room of a Starship to be accused of gunboat diplomacy!
KERLA In any case, we know where this is leading, the annihilation of our culture. Klingons will replace those on the lowest rung of the Federation employment ladder, taking menial jobs and performing them for lower pay......
CHEKOV That's economics, not racism!
UHURA But you have to admit it adds up to the same thing.
McCOY Don't be naive, Commander!
UHURA Who are you calling "naive"?
Kirk stares sullenly down the table throughout this.
CHEKOV We're explorers, not diplomats!
McCOY Starfleet's killed an awful lot of natural phenomena in the name of "exploration"......
SCOTTY We follow orders......
CHEKOV Since when has THAT been an excuse? Diplomacy must resolve these.....
SCOTTY Right! Leave it to the politicians to muck it up and leave us defenseless....!
A cough interrupts the fight. All eyes on Gorkon. The Klingons conceal their amusement.
GORKON Well. I see we have a long way to go.
As written, this would have given the minor characters meatier roles, and allowed them, for once, to actually disagree. However, as fun as the scene is, many of the lines don�t feel right for the characters, and it�s not surprising that they were not used.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
And in case anyone thought only Chang was spouting off quotations...
Spock: �I intend you to replace me.� Valeris: �I could only succeed you, sir.� from Thomas Jefferson: �I succeed him. No one could replace him.�
Chang: �Don�t wait for the translation! Answer me now!� from U.N. ambassador Adlai Stevenson, speaking to the Soviet ambassador during the Cuban Missle crisis, "Do you deny that these are your missiles? Don't wait for the translation, answer me now. And I'm prepared to wait until hell freezes over for your answer, Mr. Ambassador."
Martia: �I thought I would assume a pleasing shape.� from The devil hath power To assume a pleasing shape. --WILLIAM SHAKESPEARE Hamlet, II, ii, 628
As to the President's statement: �Let us redefine progress to mean just because we can do a thing, does not necessarily mean we must do that thing.� It sounds familair to me, but I can't place a source.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Ever listened to that complete speech as it runs in the background? It's ehm, a load of bovine excrement.
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
And don't forget:
"Second star to the right - and straight on till morning." from "Peter Pan" by J.M. Barrie
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
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