It's like that - on almost every Trek PBEM I see there are three duty shifts, and captain commands ship during Alpha shift, first officer commands during Beta shift, and second officer commands during gamma shift.
So, um, ok. But from what I've seen in actual Trek episodes, it's not like that... I mean, in almost every TNG episode we see Picard together with Riker, Data takes double shifts, not to mention Harry Kim commanding Voyager during nightshift...
So, how it is in 'reality'? Also, as I understand, there are people here with Navy experiences, perhaps they could tell how its organized on real ships?
Posted by Intruder1701 (Member # 880) on :
On a real boat underway they divide the bridge watches into sections on my last ship it was 3 sections and it was a 4 hour watch with an Officer of the Deck (OOD) Junior Officer of the Deck (JOOD) which is his assistant, a Boatswains mate of the Watch which is in charge of all the enlisted watch standers and then there was the helmsman, lee helmsman, Port and Starboard lookouts,and messenger. The OOD is in charge of the bridge when the Captain or XO is not around. Normally the Captain will leave the day to day running of the bridge in the OOD's hands but in certain situations the captain will take command such as when we went through the Suez Canal or during a replishment at sea.
Posted by Capped in Mic (Member # 709) on :
i think the best examples of this arrangement are TNG "Disaster" and DS9 "Emissary" .. both show that Picard is on duty, but off the bridge with a designated OOD in charge, a lieutenant who is not XO, 2ndO or a department head, simply a command officer who is responsible for the bridge..
the rest of the time i guess we are to assume that on Federation starships, the Captain has a lot more resources to perform his duties from the bridge than off of it, so UFP captains spend a lot more time in the center seat than USN ones might
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Question? What exactly are the Captain's duties on a real Navy vessel? If he's able to leave the command of the bridge in a junior officer's hands, what other things does he do during a duty shift?
I would guess that much of Picard's off-screen time is spent in his ready room with someone else in operational command. We just happen to catch up with him when the action starts. Given the variety of missions the Enterprise is assigned to, alot of his time is probably spent planning and prepping for them... figuring out what to delegate to whom.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
As per most of the background info, Data's Day implies that, under normal cicumstances, Picard takes the day shift, Riker the evening one, and Data the night one.
However, that's under normal opperation, and the Enterprise (and other series ships) are very rarely functioning under normal situations. When invesitgating this weeks alien threat/anomoly, it makes sense that the Captain would take charge, and his most important and capable officers would sit with him during the crisis. I guess that they would also abandon the normal shift pattern during those times, since we never saw...
"Reistence if Futile. You will be..."
"Hold that thought. Sorry, but I've finished for the day."
"...assimi...what?"
"Yeah, I'm off. I'm going to read some Shakespear and have a bath. You can deal with Ensign Happydude. Bye."
"But..."
"Hi, guys! This is Ensign Happydude. I'll be taking over from the captain for now. Any questions, queries, I want you to address to me. Anyway, *ahem*, we will not be bullied by you!"
"Bullying is irrelevent. You will be..."
"Sorry, but, was I okay? Was that believable?"
"Okay, we're off."
"Wait! I can do better. Listen. *ahem*. THE LINE MUST BE DRAWN HERE!"
"Bye."
"No, wait! I AM YYOUR FATHER! No, that's wrong. Damnit..."
"See you for the next season finale."
And then after that, we all wonder what the point was.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
A good point. Something tells me the military doesn't operate like your normal day job. When I leave for the day, I'm done. If there's some graphic design emergency... it waits until tomorrow. Aboard ship though, if you're needed on duty, you get your butt on duty. So naturally, in the middle of the story, the main characters and senior officers will be on the bridge.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Kirk: How long till the Genesis device goes off?
David: We encoded four minutes.
Kirk: Scotty! We need warp drive in four mintues or we're all dead!
Scotty: I cannae change the laws of physics, sir! It's gonna take at least five minutes!
Kirk: Five minutes? Scotty, can't you do it any faster?
Scotty: Well, I *suppose* I could skip my break...
Kirk: Break? How long would it take without your break?
Scotty: Well, I'd be working slower sincce I missed my break...
Mark
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Another option is that each shift is 10-12 hours long and overlap each other by two hours. data's an exception o the rule and pulls two shifts back to back (being a tireless android and all).
Starfleet personell seem to need less rest than us primitive screwheads (w've seen Riker and co. pull 18 hour shifts before being ordered to get rest).
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Plus there do seem to be people hanging around on the bridge whose sole job seems to be waiting for Data/Wesley/Worf/etc to wander off, so that they can sit in their chair. What do they do while waiting? No-one knows...
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
LCARS solitaire.
Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Another option is that each shift is 10-12 hours long and overlap each other by two hours.
I get this strange mental image of Riker sitting on Picards lap (and queue of crewmans arguing who gets to sit on counselor Troi lap )
Hm... Is this possible that those extras are actually OODs and JOOD, like Intruder1701 said its being done on RL ships? (thanks for the info, Intruder )
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: Plus there do seem to be people hanging around on the bridge whose sole job seems to be waiting for Data/Wesley/Worf/etc to wander off, so that they can sit in their chair. What do they do while waiting? No-one knows...
Hmmmm.... Possibly training, I suppose. From a strictly tactical POV, it makes sense to have extras (literally) waiting to jump in, in case of the old "console explosion" or explosive diherreah from Riker's cooking.
Mabye the extra personnell are summoned to station during Yellow/Red alerts and are down in the C-Deck bowling alley the rest of the time. Otr they're practising with their phasers: these arent stromtroopers, y'know. Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
Just as an aside, the duty officer on the bridge is called the "Officer of the Watch" (OOW) in the Royal Navy, which makes slightly more sense than "Officer of the Deck" in my opinion.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
So do they ever say "Mr Blinkyblob, you have the conn/bridge" in the real navy? Or the US one?
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
"You have the conn" (and the reply "I have the conn") is used in the Royal Navy.
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
"By the power of Greyskull." - Eternian Navy.
Posted by Treknophyle (Member # 509) on :
IIRC, Troi passed the 'Officer of the Watch' training which entitled her to take the conn during a shift. - What was her title? - Was any mention made of how long the watvh was?
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Troi passed the Bridge Officers Test, I believe, and received a promotion to full Commander from that of Lt. Commander.
She was also apparently in command of the ship before Picard arrived as seen in All Good Things. Plausible since the ship wasn't actually under way yet.
I believe that she, like Crusher, worked the night shift, and whiel I think we saw her in command at one point, I can't remember what ep it was in. In fact... we may never have actually seen her in command of the ship after her promotion.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Thanks god for that huh? Her helm record is'nt exactly spotless without putting her in the center seat....
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
She couldn't have been in command in "Farpoint". They make a big deal in -- what was it, "Lower Decks"? -- the ep where she takes the test that you have to have passed the Bridge Officer's Test to be able to be left in command. I would presume, based on the low ranks we've seen in the colour in command, that Command-division personnel have passed the test by the time they leave the Academy. Not sure about other departments. Data had obviously passed it, but he's rather a special case, and it may not apply to Ops. Managers across-the-board... We also don't know about Chief Engineers or Security Chiefs (at least in TNG time), as Geordi and Worf both switched from red to mustard, and both were shown in command during the first season as Junior Grade Lieutenants...
Also remember how shockingly ignorant she was of starship functions as late as 5th season. Remember little Miss "What's a warp core breach" in "Disaster"? Poor O'Brien must not have known she hadn't taken the Bridge Officer's Test the way he and Ro had when he told her she was in charge.
--Jonah
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Well... in All Good Things, it's Troi's hand that Picard walks over and shakes after he takes command. There don't appear to be any other higher ranking officers present. Of course, it's possible that the person who was actually in command was off doing things to get the ship ready to launch, but you'd think the ranking officer on the ship would be there to greet the new captain.
Also, in the "present" timeline, Troi says that *she* introduced him to the rest of the senior staff at the *reception* for Picard. Surely the ranking officer would've been present there.
There are really all kinds of things that could've been going on. Maybe Picard just knew Troi from before, having gone over personnel records with him or something.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Geordi and Worf seemed to be the officers most often in command when Picard or Riker weren't around.
I think your notion of Troi introducing Picard to his staff because she already knows them is the most sound.
--Jonah
Posted by Intruder1701 (Member # 880) on :
Maybe in All Good Things since the ship wasnt underway she could have been in command. Being that it was under construction there wasnt too much that she could screw up. In the US Navy when the ship is docked there is a "Command Duty Officer" who is the Captains rep when he is not onboard. This officer doesnt necessarly drive the ship he is just there to take care of admin matters when the ship is docked. She could have been filling that capacity.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :
Intruder is correct. I never worked on the bridge, and only occassionally even went up there. Most of my time during WestPac was spent in CIC.
In CIC the Tactical Actions Officer (TAO) was in charge. That position was held by four lieutenants in a 3 section watch. The watch rotation was 7-12, 12-17, 17-22, 22-2, 2-7. In other words, if you had the 7-12 watch you would be off until your next watch, the 22-2.
The TAO's job is as the name implies. Should something happen and the captain isn't around he has permission to fire weapons. He also tells the OOD on the bridge what to do.
My position in CIC was Electronics Warfare Supervisor. I'd analyze the radar off other ships and aircraft. Even if we couldn't see it, we could tell what type of ship it is by it's radar. Also if they're using their navigation radar or a fire control radar I determine if it's a possible threat. As for watch rotation, there was 3 of us and we did 7-12, 12-17, 17-24, 00-07. So when we weren't on watch we were basically on-call if something needed to get done. Unlike Star Trek we don't get to wear civilian clothes if we're not working.
When we're inport it's a different story. You pretty much work from 7-16 like a normal work day anywhere else and you're off. Generally Fridays everyone tries to get out as early as possible for the weekend. However, if you have duty you have to stay the whole day which sucks.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Troi was in command of the bridge at one point during "Genesis". Worf was also there, so it seems unlikely to be the night shift. Possibly Riker was off shaving his arms.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Troi had passed the Bridge Officer's Test by "Genesis", Liam.
--Jonah
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I know. I was responding (really lately) to Aban's "In fact... we may never have actually seen her in command of the ship after her promotion."
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Ah. I occasionally have trouble keeping track of the branches these conversations take. *heh*
--Jonah
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I stand corrected. She was in deed command at that point.
Mmmm... shivery cold Troi. How could I forget that?
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
So was it ever established that Crusher passed the command test? I feel like it came up at some point.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
In the episode that Troi took the test in, Crusher metnioned that she took it 8 years previously, in order to stretch herself.
Which makes her comments in "Farpoint" that she doesn't care about command matters seem like the big fibs that they were.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
I dunno... She coulda taken the exam, become disillusioned about the job (especially after Jack's death, whenever that was), and gave up on it. Later on, as she became comfy on the Enterprise, she could have gotten back into it.
Now, why they hell would PULASKI want to take the exam and become a full commander? She hated everyone, after all.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Jack died WAY before she took the test. She took it less than a year before Farpoint, so that's a pretty big change of heart.
I don't think that Pulaski did take the test. She repeatedly said that she wasn't a bridge officer.
The confusion comes from the episode implying that the only way for the blue-shirts to become full commanders is to take the test. It mentions in the TNG Companion that it was a combination of several things. Ie, that Troi had done lots of commendable work, and taking the bridge officers test would be enough to get her a promotion, but that there would also be other ways to become a full commander. Perhaps Pulaski had done something amazingly commendable in the medical field(s).
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Maybe she was overdue for promotion, but had yet to prove she was worthy. There are plenty of good reasons for the CMO (Crusher or Pulaski) to be a full Commander, like having the power to relieve anyone on the ship of duty.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Pulaski always struck me as a "have the tool and not need it rather than need the tool and not have it" sort.
--Jonah
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I believe that the CMO can relieve anyone on the ship, including the Captain, of duty for medical reasons, no matter what rank he or she holds. The Doctor had the authority to relieve Janeway of command and he held no rank at all.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Did Bashir ever threaten to do anything like that? After all, he was only a Junior Grade lieutenant (and then a full one).
And the original doctor on Voyager was only a lt. commander.
The holo doc seemed to work perfectly well without any sort of rank at all, come to think of it.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I think the CMO can relieve any officer if they feel the officer is (or will be) a liability to themself or others but that's not something to be taken lightly: if they dont have LOTS of documented reason for the officer's removal, it would probably end (or at least curtail) their CMO status if the removal proves baseless.
Removing an officer from command is probably about as rare as a mutiny on a starship (we've only seen either because it's dramatic to a story).
With the chain of command, removing anyone of lower rank than the captain or XO should not really hinder the crew's capabilities: there would be at least one alternate for everyone (at least temporarly).
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
Hmm... in light of how much he always bitched 'n moaned about his limited computer program rights, it's odd that Photon Boy was never actually granted a commission (even if it would have been only symbolic).
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Liam,
Bashir relieved Kira of duty for one night, in the episode "Defiant." I can recall him perhaps threatening to relieve Sisko at one point, but can't remember when.
Also, just a thought, but it could have been a Starfleet requirement that a Galaxy-Class starship have a person of a certain rank for the position of CMO. Why? Perhaps Starfleet Medical would demand a person of Commander rank to lead the large medical department of a Galaxy-Class starship - probably a couple of surgeons, a pediatrician or two, a couple dentists, and the nurses and assorted medical staff, who really knows. All I'm saying is, maybe Bev took the test not because she really wanted the rank, but because she needed the rank for the position she wanted.
As for Pulaski, maybe this "Bridge Test" thing is a fairly new idea, and she gained promotion to commander before it was implemented.
Also, Liam smells.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Hmm. If a Galaxy requires a full Commander for CMO, why is a Nebula so different? Dr Lense in "Explorers" was just a Lieutenant, wasn't she?
(Then again, this is quite consistent with "Second Sight". )
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Geeez.....spare your sanity and dont ever contenplate the command structure, bridge layout or pod applications of the Nebula class. Better by far to shake tenticles with Chtulu himself.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Strewth! It's Cthulu!
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
At least it wasn't the Loch Ness Monster.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Hmm. If a Galaxy requires a full Commander for CMO, why is a Nebula so different? Dr Lense in "Explorers" was just a Lieutenant, wasn't she?
Hmm... might explain Bashir's rapid promotion as DS9 became a major outpost...
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Doo-bul poast.
Mark
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Rapid? It was the fourth season before he got his promotion. Fandom usually accepts that doctors start out with at least a Lt. (jg) for department command and chain of command reasons. Anyone know how medical ranks work in the Navy or Air Force? Nurses tended to have a rank of Ensign (Ogawa, Voyager's first nurse, etc.), whereas the technicians or orderlies were always crewmen.
As for the "full commander" rank, they were pretty rare in the TNG era. The few full commanders we've seen are Riker, Shelby (field promotion), Ferris (field commission), Crusher, Dr. Quaice (really old guy), McCoy, Spock, Quinteros... In the XO position anyway, Lt. Commanders were far more common: Sisko on the Saratoga, Chakotay, Cavit, Riker on the Hood, the guy on the Odyssey...
IMO, the full commander's relative rarity is ammunition for the notion that lesser, smaller ships are mostly captianed by them.
Mark
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Bear in mind everyone we've seen with the rank of Captain was a Commander before that. Plus, you forgot Chekov, Uhura, Troi (after she passed the test), and probably others I'm forgetting at the moment.
--Jonah
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
And the prick with the maggott in his stomach was a commander too...Remick? I think so.
As to Bashier's promotion: by the time he's finally recieved it, we's already seen him save heads of state, wipe out plagues and the Harvesters and save future generations from the Quickening. He's done more than any other Trek doctor by season four (only possible exception is McCoy).
AND he plays a mean game of darts.
Posted by Capped in Mic (Member # 709) on :
Ferris?
Bueller?
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Lieutenant Commander Dexter Remmick.
--Jonah
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Back to the hypothesis of the requirement of rank, it may be that for the flagship of the Federation, they don't want a snot-nosed lieutenant (jg).
On a side note, I was watching a rerun of a game show a few months ago - that one where three people come out all pretending to be the same person and the celebrity panel has to guess who is the REAL so-and-so. Anyway, in this particular episode, the mystery guest was a female Vice-Admiral, head of the Navy's nursing branch. The host asked her later, "Who commands in the operating room?" She replied that while she was superior in the office, in the operating room, even if the doctor was only a lieutenant, she would be answerable to him. In other words, it wouldn't be out of the question for the chief surgeon on a starship to be a lieutenant and be giving orders to a nurse with a rank of full commander in a medical capacity. Besides, we saw Ogawa get promoted to lieutenant, remember?
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
Yeah, she got it in "Lower Decks" and I believe she might have already been a full Lieutenant when we last saw her in FC.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Bashir graduated the Academy with a rank of Ensign and Starfleet Medical with the rank of Lt. J.G. He basically had served for 4 years as an ensign before becomming a J.G. Then another four before getting to full Lt. And then there's the heroism which was mentioned. Doesn't seem out of line.
As for all captain's having been commanders at some point: Picard apparently wasn't.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
How sure are we that Bashir completed his training through Starfleet Medical? I mean, okay sure, he gets his bachelors through Starfleet Academy. But why do we assume he got his M.D. through Starfleet Medical?
Let's look at Troi. We know she went to Starfleet Academy - she says impressing her classmates is a motivating factor for her desire to test for commander. But where did she get her degree? Dialogue in "Tin Man" suggests she was at the university on Betazed for a period of time. Speaking of which, does Troi have a doctorate in psychology or psychiatry? Wouldn't you think that would be considered essentially for a position that amounts to "Ship's Shrink"?
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :
In response to the question about doctors in the Navy. No clue. Our ship didn't have a medical officer. Instead we had a HMC (Hospital Corpsman Chief E-7).
Although once I heard about a civilian medical specialist becoming a captain (O-6) because the only way he would serve the Navy is at the same pay he was making on the outside world.
[ December 05, 2003, 08:36 AM: Message edited by: Hobbes ]
Posted by Woodside Kid (Member # 699) on :
In my Air Force days (80s and early 90s), most of the doctors (and dentists, for that matter) I encountered were captains. Occasionally I saw a major, but that was pretty rare. The most senior-ranking doctor I ever saw was a lt. colonel who treated me the night I sprained my ankle.
During one training course I took the instructor mentioned that specialists with doctorates in needed fields (not just medicine) could be commissioned with a rank commensurate with their level of experience. The highest rank one could be commissioned with was full colonel (O-6), but that would be very unusual
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
I wonder if any Starfleet doctors first studied medicine, then went to the Academy. . .
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I remember Bashir talking about a romance he had once and saying that his graduating is what ended it because her father had offered him a job at a hospital, but that taking it would mean ending his Starfleet career.
This gives us two clues: When this graduation took place, he A) already had a starfleet career and B) had medical training sufficient to allow him to take a high-falootin' position at a hospital.
To me, this suggests that he had already been through the Academy, had been serving various assignments during his Starfleet Medical Training, and was speaking of this SM graduation.
It is, however, quite likely that he took some sort of Pre-med classes at the Academy, as would all cadets interested in serving as medical officers.
Posted by Intruder1701 (Member # 880) on :
On my last ship we had our SMO (Senior Medical Officer) was a civilian doctor and took a Navy Commision and they made him a commander based on his experience. Of course we also had a couple of Lieutenants and LCDR's who were civilian doctors but were facing malpractice suits so they joined the navy, how ironic. While we are on the discussion of healers, I wonder if Starfleet has a Chaplains Corps? I wonder how that would work.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Have we even seen evidence that human religion exists on Earth in the 24th century? We know the American Indians still practice their cultural beliefs. But other than that, has there been reference to any specific Human religion?
They celebrated Christmas on Kirk's ship once, I remember, but Christmas has become more of a traditional occasion rather than a religious expression.
I want to see a Kwanza party on Enterprise. Just because.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
I can't remember any explicit references to human religion in 24th century Trek. Besides, it seems like half the gods we know were actually aliens.
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: As for the "full commander" rank, they were pretty rare in the TNG era. The few full commanders we've seen are Riker, Shelby (field promotion), Ferris (field commission), Crusher, Dr. Quaice (really old guy), McCoy, Spock, Quinteros...
Maddox, "Keiran MacDuff", Hutchinson, Edward La Forge.
So far, I have 5 commanders from pre-Fed Starfleet, 5 from 2167-2270, 12 from the Movie era, 18 from 2362-2370, 10 from 2371-2392, and 3 from 2400.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Ben Sisko, anyone?
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Aban Rune: But other than that, has there been reference to any specific Human religion?
They celebrated Christmas on Kirk's ship once, I remember, but Christmas has become more of a traditional occasion rather than a religious expression.
Thanksgiving too. And the Hindu Festival of Lights according to "Data's Day".
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Wasn't Cal Hudson a full commander too, now that I think about it?
Posted by Hunter (Member # 611) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam:
quote:Originally posted by Aban Rune: But other than that, has there been reference to any specific Human religion?
They celebrated Christmas on Kirk's ship once, I remember, but Christmas has become more of a traditional occasion rather than a religious expression.
Thanksgiving too. And the Hindu Festival of Lights according to "Data's Day".
Kasidy Yates stated that her mother would perfer it if she was married by a minister. Theres a bible passage quoted in Far beyond the Stars (Timothy II 4:7) which Sisko recognises.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay: Wasn't Cal Hudson a full commander too, now that I think about it?
Yeah, Hudson was a Commander, as was Benteen in the first part of Homefront.
Posted by Intruder1701 (Member # 880) on :
Commander Quinteros CO of Starbase 74 and Commander Calvin Hutchison who commanded the Arkaria Base where the Enterprise went for refitting before it was almost hijacked (Starship Mine) are two more Commanders I found.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
How Calvin Hutchison ever made commander is beyond me: mabye they just did it to shut him up and ship him away ASAP. I laughed when he died.
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
Hudson was a Lt. Cmdr.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: Thanksgiving too. And the Hindu Festival of Lights according to "Data's Day".
Well, not to split hairs...oh hell, who am I kidding...I'm afraid Thanksgiving isn't a religous holiday, at least here in the US, unless maybe in the UK it is...
And just for shits and giggles and just to broaden the scope outside the main cast a little we can still add:
Lt. Commanders (more-less): Albert, Argyle, Beach, Cavit, Jack R. Crusher, Neela Daren, Hester Dealt, Eddington, Ben Finney, Giotto, Christopher Hobson, Kelowitz, Susanna Leitjen, Leland T. Lynch, Gary Mitchell & Ann Mulhall.
Commanders (more-less): 'Valerie Archer', Branch, Flaherty, Peter Harkins, Kyle, Sarah MacDougal, Bruce Maddox, Parker, Sonak & Ian Andrew Troi.
There seems to be a rather broad spectrum of specialities in the list as well to note.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I thought Ian Troi was Lt. Commander....but I've been wrong on one other occasion so who knows?
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
Damn. Could you have picked a worse picture of Shelby? She's no bueaty queen to begin with but that's just scary...
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Futurama Guy: I'm afraid Thanksgiving isn't a religous holiday, at least here in the US, unless maybe in the UK it is...
No, we don't even know what this crazy holiday is.
As for Ian Troi, if memory serves, while his holo-video showed him with full lieutenant badge, when Beverly received his belonings in "Family" they said "Lt Comm Ian Troi".
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Spike: Why is Bev listed as a Lt Comm for "Thine Own Self"? Is this because you are assuming that she got the promotion in the same way that Troi did? Does the episode say that? She could have already been a commander and just passed the Bridge Officers test. The test isn't the only way to get to full commander for the blue shirts according to the writers.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Beverly has been a full commander since the premier of TNG.
quote:As for Ian Troi, if memory serves, while his holo-video showed him with full lieutenant badge, when Beverly received his belonings in "Family" they said "Lt Comm Ian Troi".
Liam: You're mistaking Deanna Troi's dad for Beverly Crusher's husband. Unless you're suggesting that Deanna and Wesley are half-brothers. IIRC, Ian does show up in that flashback-dream sequence in "Dark Page", in uniform. Anyone got a screen shot of his rank insignia?
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
quote:Originally posted by Intruder1701: I wonder if Starfleet has a Chaplains Corps? I wonder how that would work.
With great difficulty, I imagine. You'd probably need almost as many preachers as crewmembers on some ships! I would've thought it'd be easier to have either 'subspace sermons' or some sort of lay preacher set up.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Or a holodeck...
And a lot of Trek's spiritual experiences seem to be of the personal meditation kind.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Didn't they have a chaplin on Kirk's Enterprise, according to "Balance of Terror"?
Posted by Toadkiller (Member # 425) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: Didn't they have a chaplin on Kirk's Enterprise, according to "Balance of Terror"?
I think his name was Charlie.
In the USN chaplains pretty much play the part of trek counselors, so I suppose one could say they have secular chaplains.
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote:Why is Bev listed as a Lt Comm for "Thine Own Self"?
Because that episode established that she was promoted from Lt. Cmdr. to Cmdr. eight years ago.
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
Did that episode actually say in dialog that she was promoted in rank at that time or just that she took and passed the test?
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
I think it says in dialogue - she and Troi are discussing the test, and Troi says she wants to take it because she's jealous of some of her former classmates from the Academy, and she asks Beverly why she took it. I forget Beverly's response, but given that Troi is promoted after passing the test, I would guess that Dr. Crusher was a Lt. Commander before the test, and a Commander after the test.
I'm sure you also have to have some requirements to be eligible to take the test, also. I mean, otherwise Dr. Jones would be promoted to Lt. Commander on Monday and test for Commander on Tuesday. Perhaps for staff officers, there's a certain amount of time which must first expire. "Gosh, sorry Doctor Jones, you gotta wait five years..."
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay: but given that Troi is promoted after passing the test, I would guess that Dr. Crusher was a Lt. Commander before the test, and a Commander after the test.
Er, that's not exactly brilliant use of logic. You're only basing it off of one person, and that person isn't in the same profession (well, not exactly).
As mentioned, the writers didn't want to give the impression that passing the test = automatic promotion. In Troi's case, it was a mixture of things, and passing the test, combined with other good stuff she had done, resulted in her being promoted.
Unless it actually says that Bev was promoted, I don't think that we can assume that she was.
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
quote:Originally posted by Intruder1701: ...I wonder if Starfleet has a Chaplains Corps? I wonder how that would work.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Liam,
As I recall, they were specificly discussing why Crusher wanted to be promoted to Commander in the first place. She makes some off-handed remark and says "So I took the test."
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
Okay, someone go through the script and the aired-form of the episode and tell us what really went on.
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
TROI May I ask you a personal question... what made you decide to become a commander? I mean, you didn't need the rank in order to be Chief Medical Officer... so why put yourself through all the extra work?
BEVERLY I don't know... I never gave much thought to my rank for a long time... it seemed pretty trivial compared to being a doctor. But then, about eight years ago, I began to feel like I wanted to... stretch myself a little.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I would have thought she was all stretched out after having Wesley....
Posted by Capped in Mic (Member # 709) on :
i find it fascinating to imagine that if that is the case, Pulaski and McCoy wouldve faced similar training scenarios, both of them being commanders. (although McCoy already had some basic command certification if you believe Duane's 'Doctor's Orders' )
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
Remember that episode of DS9 where Eddington stated that you don't get to be a captain wearing a gold uniform? Yet Scotty was promoted to captain in TSFS.
So, maybe this Bridge test and the above mentioned were part of some regulations change in the early 24th century.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Well, we also saw an Admiral in gold -- head of Starfleet Security. I think Eddington's comment meant captain = commanding a ship. Scotty's promotion didn't put him over Styles.
--Jonah
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Or simply that reaching the rank of captain without transfering to command track is very difficult. I mean, let's say you're an engineer, right? So promotion is based on open slots, essentially. You're not going to get that position as Assistant Shift-Chief until the guy ahead of you retires, gets killed, or transfered. Once you get there, you're going to get Assistant Chief until that guy moves on. Once THERE, you're not going to get Chief of Engineering until that slot is open on your own ship or another. Once you've got a position as CoE, what can you really do? I mean, after a few years you might be able to get a teaching post at the Academy, but other than that all you can really hope for is to be promoted to CoE of a repair or construction yard, or ... y'know? I mean, it's gotta be really hard to move up in the branches without at some point crossing over to command.
If anyone here has read the Hornblower novels, the descriptions of the officers' worries about promotions probably is shared by many within Starfleet.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Amazingly enough: Spike TV is showing the episode where Troi takes her test this very minute. She mentioned that Dr. Crusher didint need to be a commander to be CMO. ...and I think Riker played favorites with Troi's testing: I cant imagine anyone else would have got FOUR tries to pass the test.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Y'know, considering the writers stated that they didn't want the implication to be that you had to take that test to be a commander, the preceeding quoted dialogue really shoots that intention in the foot.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
I would say that it is reasonable to assume that there are other qualifications an officer must have fulfilled before being eligible to take the test - as I mentioned in the thread earlier, there's probably a time frame requirement in here somewhere, or some ambitious med officer would be a lieutenant on Tuesday, get promoted to Lt. Commander on Wednesday, take the test Thursday, and be a Commander on Friday.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
You are right of course: it's not just a matter of passing a test, or Data would be Admiral, but it should be more like the Police Seargent's exam. If you dont pass, you cant take it again for a whole year- so you cant just take it over and over while you cram between failures untill you get it right....that's how they keep unqualified applicants from positions they arent ready for.
In other words: so they cant do exactly what Riker let Troi do.
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
That may be so. Of course, one of the reasons Riker let Troi go for it four times is because she already did have some taste at command prior.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
*cough*
O'Brien: "If containment drops below 12%, we'll have a warp core breach."
Troi: "Excuse me -- what does that mean?"
Ro (incredulous): "It means the ship will explode."
Excellent command record...
--Jonah
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Yeah, but, to be fair, they made Troi almost unbelievably stupid in that episode. Her IQ seems to jump up about 30 points after she gets a normal uniform.
Posted by Middy Seafort (Member # 951) on :
^Ironic that they made Troi the ship's idiot in that episode since, according to early TNG press, she was intended to be the brains of the ship.
In the press tape for the first season, Sirtus is interviewed as saying that everyone from Betazed had high IQ's and that she was the brains of the ship.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
I thought Data was the brains ... isn't that what Tam Elbrun called him in "Tin Man"? "Data, are you the brains in this outfit, eh?"
Also to be noted: Betazed is populated by Canadians.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dat: That may be so. Of course, one of the reasons Riker let Troi go for it four times is because she already did have some taste at command prior.
Or because he already had a taste of her prior and wanted another sometime during his life. Years later during the bubblebath scene in Insurection, Riker would think: "It's finally paying off... Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :
Naval officers spend 2 years as an ensign then are automatically promoted to lieutuenant JG. Another 2 year wait they're automatically promoted to lieutenant. Assuming they of course have good evals and fitreps. Ranks after lieutenant on the other hand are harder to make... or least take longer to get to. On my ship they're all required to pass certain qualifications such as officer of the deck or CIC watch officer. Which involves learning about how different areas on the ship run then taking an oral board for the test.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Starfleet clearly doesn't work like this; we've seen people working to qualify for, and even compete for promotions up from Ensign. Other people (besides Voyager crew) have stayed at Ensign or Lieutenant ranks for many years, and promotion does not necessarily mean a real increase in responsibility (LaForge, Worf, Bashir). In some cases, promotions can possibly be made to bring the senior staff rank to be more in sync with the importance of their assignment (i.e. DS9). Of course, our heroes are rarely ever transferred when promoted, but that's a whole other issue.
Concerning an earlier post, I think it's more correct to say that Troi was intended to tbe the conscience or soul of the crew, not its brain. I that respect she did a decent job, when she wasn't spouting off the bloody obvious.
CMOs probably don't need to be full commanders for matters of outranking people for most medical functions. For authoritarian reasons, no one a CMO would conceivably treat would be more than a Lt. Cmdr, and so they may ranked accrodingly... Department heads rarely exceed Lt. Cmdr unless they are really experienced or really old, or need to be the CMO on a flagship or something.
Mark
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
quote:For authoritarian reasons, no one a CMO would conceivably treat would be more than a Lt. Cmdr, and so they may ranked accrodingly...
Huh? Well, first of all, rank is irrelevent to a CMO - they're the one officer on a ship or post who can relieve any member of the crew, including the captain. Bashir was still a jg lieutenant when he threatened to relieve Kira of duty. I think the test is just for staff-officers anyway, not for line officers. Troi may have been promoted to commander, but Data is still the 2nd offficer of the ship, and LaForge and Worf are right after him in chain of command.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Data's second officer because he's nearly unstoppable when he wants something done and he really should have become full Commander far in advance of Troi. Wesley should have too for that matter.
Lets see First Contact play out without Data's presence.....hmmmm...first the computer and then the whole ship get assimilated, then everyone dies and earth is scrubbed clean of all human presence. Now, place troi in Data's place and prepare for hilarity!
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Maybe Command-division officers get automatic promotions up to Lt. or Lt.Cmdr. and other divisions have more competition. If you go back and watch "Lower Decks" again, the competition wasn't for the promotion, it was for the billet of Relief Operations Officer (one of many), and included a promotion to Lt. (j.g.). I need to go back and re-watch first-season TNG again. Were the first two chief engineers we saw Lt. Cmdr.s? Or was one of them a Lt.? I don't remember...
--Jonah
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
MacDougal and Argyle were Lt. Commanders. Logan was a Lieutenant. Assistant Chief Engineer Singh was a Lt. JG and ACE Lynch was a Lt. Commander.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
And they were apparently all fuck-ups, so Picard said "Screw this" and put his helmsman in charge. Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Regarding the test for Cmdr: most modern armed forces do have a course that officers have to pass to be promoted from Lt. Cmder to Cmdr/Major to Lt. Colonel/Squadron Leader to Wing Commander. It is possible, however to be promoted before doing the course if you have good enough assessments.
Starfleet's rank structure does appear a little less rational than most modern armed forces, mainly due to narrative requirements, I suspect. Medical officers are outside the cahain of command usually and so the rank is fairly irrelevant, mainly denoting experience/responsibility.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay: I thought Data was the brains ... isn't that what Tam Elbrun called him in "Tin Man"? "Data, are you the brains in this outfit, eh?"
Well, that was season 3, where the characters were really, really, really far away from the original press release descriptions.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
And it was Tam Elbrun speaking: Not a good source of serene objectivity, there. When Data and Elbrun were on Gomtu, I really really wanted Lore to have somehow replaced Data. ....just one good smack...
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