I figured I'd double-check with the experts on this one.
I've re-ordered my ST:TOS episode list, sorting by stardate. It seems to be a potentially valid way of understanding the series, with advantages such as showing Chekov prior to "Space Seed". There is one disadvantage, insofar as two early episodes with overlapping stardates . . . but this isn't necessarily a problem.
Anyway, I wanted to see if there were any other problems . . . none come to mind, but I wanted to be sure.
Seeing as the show was actually made to be shown in random order (so as to help syndication), it wouldn't really matter terribly much. Except for "The Cage" and WNMHGB, which obviously should be episodes 0 and 1 because of the clearly different uniforms/sets/etc. But it seems to work out in SD order.
Of course, TOS stardates were never meant to make any sense whatsoever.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Realistically, there are only a handful of continuity comments in TOS that require episodes to be put into a specific order. From memory, these are the only requirements when putting TOS episodes into any sort of order.
1/ "Mudd's Women" must occur before "I, Mudd".
2/ "Dagger of the Mind" has to be the first episode that Spock does a mind meld in front of McCoy.
3/ "Balance of Terror" has to be the first episode showing the Romulans.
4/ "Errand of Mercy" has to take place before "The Trouble With Tribbles".
5/ "What Are Little Girls Made Of" has to take place before "Operation - Annihilate!" (Reference to Kirk's brother would be weird if the order was reversed).
There are also a couple of references to past episodes in "Turnabout Intruder", but I can't remember them.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Actually, Harry, it was originally "meant" to indicate months and days into the five-year mission, but that was discarded early on when the reality of the airing order made itself known. So the latter two numbers of the stardates start climbing up well over 30, so you can see evidence of that. I tend to still go by that original explanation, though, as (and I include the animated series here) there are only three episodes higher than SD6000 -- which is five years. Those three are all animated adventures, though, and two of them could easily have taken place "on the way back to Earth". The last is "Bem", which is set on SD7403.6 -- or a year and two months after the end of the five-year mission by this system. I do, however, find "Bem" one of the weaker animated episodes, and have no problem fudging the numbers a bit (change the '7' to a '6', for example).
Treknically, the only significant problem is the alterations of sets and costumes. But since these problems are there pretty much no matter what (along with the mixed stock footage of the ship), I just say what the hell and enjoy the stories in a semblance of order.
--Jonah
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Animated stardates are a bit wackier. "Magics of Megas-Tu" has a 13** stardate, which makes no sense in chronological order. Unless they travelled back in time. Which wouldn't be completely unbelievable in this already very strange episode.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
The big problem with stardate order is that the animated and live action episodes are intermixed, which isn't possible since the structure of the ship (turbolift shafts on the bridge, engineering) and the onboard technology (life-support belts, shuttles, etc.) were upgraded in the animateds, and there's the additional fact that the cast was different (Arex, M'Ress).
Quite frankly, it doesn't send me, baby.
-MMoM Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: Realistically, there are only a handful of continuity comments in TOS that require episodes to be put into a specific order.
Very nice! Add to the list #6: Kirk's mention to Spock regarding Eminiar VII (i.e. "A Taste of Armageddon") when they encountered the Kelvans ("By Any Other Name"[TOS]) . . . he had Spock try to use the same "make the guard think we escaped" trick.
3192.1 vs. 4657.5 . . . check.
Now, let's see how the list holds up:
quote:1/ "Mudd's Women" must occur before "I, Mudd".
1329 vs. 4513 . . . check.
quote:2/ "Dagger of the Mind" has to be the first episode that Spock does a mind meld in front of McCoy.
Uh-oh. "Patterns of Force" involves Spock doing something mind-meld-esque in front of McCoy. On the other hand, I've double-checked a TOS transcript of that episode and cannot find a reference to the stardate everyone quotes!
Until I get a chance to watch the ep on tape to determine the placement of 'Patterns', I think this issue should be put on hold.
quote:3/ "Balance of Terror" has to be the first episode showing the Romulans.
Check.
quote:4/ "Errand of Mercy" has to take place before "The Trouble With Tribbles".
3198.4 vs. 4523.3 . . . check.
quote:5/ "What Are Little Girls Made Of" has to take place before "Operation - Annihilate!" (Reference to Kirk's brother would be weird if the order was reversed).
2712.4 vs. 3287.2 . . . check.
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim: The big problem with stardate order is that the animated and live action episodes are intermixed
Might be why TAS isn't canon.
(runs away) Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
IIRC Uhura wears a gold uniform in the first three regular episodes after WNMHGB.
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
Same story about "Patterns of Force" told above . . . seems that the stardate everyone uses (including startrek.com!) is a creation of the ST Concordance.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Spike: IIRC Uhura wears a gold uniform in the first three regular episodes after WNMHGB.
Was it three? I only remember it in "The Corbomite Maneuver". And going by air date order, she wears red in several episodes before that.
Besides, that's fairly easy to explain. Maybe she was taking some sort of command coure, and wore gold for the duration. Maybe the laundry had run out of red. Maybe comms people can wear either colour.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
I always thought Comms should be part of Command anyway. I mean, what the hell use is such a division if all it incorporates is Captain, First Officer and assorted Helmsmen (and Navigators when they had them)? Great. Now I'm going to start obsessively trying to recall every Gold-wearing (and Red-wearing, post-TNG) crewmember and what their jobs actually were. . .
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I'm sure there were a few red-shirted Navigators in TOS. That bloke who got hit by the happy stick on Landau's planet I seem to recall being a Navigator. Although I could be misremembering that from a comic book.
There's also the weird fact that when Kyle was subbing on the bridge in either helm or navigation (I forget which), he wore a red shirt instead of his usual gold.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by Guardian 2000:
quote:Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim: The big problem with stardate order is that the animated and live action episodes are intermixed
Might be why TAS isn't canon.
(runs away)
Since I'm too tired to debate this at the moment, and since you had the good sense to flee from the path of my vengeful rightiousness, you get off easy this time...
The truth of the matter is, there is only one most logical and sensical order to watch TOS shows in: the order in which they were filmed and produced. Why? Because that's the order they were filmed and produced in.
-MMoM Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
So going by air-date order is crazy and mental then?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Aha!
So, when I was working on my nerdiest list ever, involving episodes and when they occured, I wanted to keep track of every valid dating scheme possible.
But even if we disregard the animated series (which I of course did) and disregard stardates going backwards in, uh, I forget, and handwave the overlap you point out, there's still a problem. Namely: The episode "Miri" begins on 2713.5, and later, when we hear that the crew only has two more days until they are killed by life-extending space leprosy, the stardate is 2717.3. "Dagger of the Mind" takes place on and around 2715.2. The events of "Miri" preclude the Enterprise from popping off for a quick supply mission.
Now, this is quite possibly the lamest post I have ever posted. And we could just handwave this away too. But stardates simply don't make any kind of sense at all in TOS.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
I'd be tempted to say Kirk misspoke under stress and reversed the last two digits of the second stardate from Miri. But that would require my caring about such mundanities.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: So going by air-date order is crazy and mental then?
Ummm this is news to you?
I mean, airdate order puts "Where No Man Has Gone Before" AFTER "The Man Trap" and "Charlie X," for flubb's sake! Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
The only order that makes sense is production order. Maybe because that's actually the order in which the episodes were made 8)*
*Sorry, Lee, I still have to work on a signature smiley
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
I should get royalties. Cartman'd've made me rich by now. . .
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
Pffft. I expressly changed mine at your behest! OK, it's still a ripoff, but at least this one hadn't been done before. B)
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim: I mean, airdate order puts "Where No Man Has Gone Before" AFTER "The Man Trap" and "Charlie X," for flubb's sake!
Yes, but going by production order for other Trek series doesn't work, unless you want Unification II to take place before Unification I. So why should it apply to TOS?
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Actually, I used that one too, so there. 8P
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam:
quote:Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim: I mean, airdate order puts "Where No Man Has Gone Before" AFTER "The Man Trap" and "Charlie X," for flubb's sake!
Yes, but going by production order for other Trek series doesn't work, unless you want Unification II to take place before Unification I. So why should it apply to TOS?
Following production order for TOS and the first season of TNG should be the rule to "Unification" 1 & 2 and say, "Family" being the exception for the sole fact that they are more than likely filmed out of order for a reason - not because the stardate system hadn't gotten its shit together yet. The End.
(Besides, who'd a thunk 35 years ago folks would be having nerd orgies like this over the order of stardates vs airdates vs production order?) Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
So, you're saying that we should follow one logical system, and ignore any obvious errors that are caused by it?
I really have to remember that.
Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
James Dixon in his chronology suggest going by TOS novelizations order Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
Dixon can be a bunch of BS.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
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