Will post more once I've actually looked it, but so far I've just got the first disc in the player. The Menu is the Klingon courtroom.
Disc 1 had a cool pic of Spacedock on it. Disc 2, inexplicably, has an unside down image of the Enterprise B of it...go figure.
Looking forward the the Nick Meyer & screenwriter Denny Martin Flynn. I found Meyer's commentary track on TWOK SE one of the best things about that disc.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
I had to hunt all over Best Buy for it today ... they hadn't put it on the shelves, found it on their cart pushed into the computer system. While I was there, took advantage of their offer and picked up Futurama Season One for $20.
Screw the Akira, I want a Planet Express starship!
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Federationmodels.com sells a very nice model version.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
Okay, so I watched the film and the extras. Here's my quick rundown:
FILM. This is essentially the version we've seen for years, including the extra scenes not in the original theatrical release (Operation Retrieve, Spock, Scotty and Valeris in the torpedo bay, the revelation that the "Klingon" assassin is Colonet West).
If you compare this film to the previous Trek SEs you'll notice the size of the letterbox bars is smaller. This is due to the format Meyer shot on, which is a slightly different aspect ratio to the other films.
Meyer did do a few small edits, though. The ones I noticed are: 1. Added a wide shot of the officer's mess at the start of the scene where Scotty discovers the uniforms. 2. In the scene where Kirk asks Valeris for the names of the conspiritors, a few closeups of Kirk and McCoy replace wider shots in the previous edits. 3. During the mindmeld, each time a conspiritor's name is given, a flash cut of them appears with a slight music sting.
That's all I noticed the first time through.
Commentary While better than most, it's not quite as good as the one on TWOK. It's more conversational between Meyer and writer Denny Martin Flynn. Not as much meat on the creative choices as on the TWOK commentary.
Extras Again, better than most, but never the stuff you want. --The Perils of Peacemaking mini documentary --Six little featurettes under the topic Movie Making. --Various odds and ends of moderate interest under the subject of The Star Trek Universe --A Farewell, including a tribute to the late De Kelly and interviews made with the cast at the time of the shooting --Promotional materials that consist of two trailers and a 1991 convention presentation by Nick Meyer --Archives containing a set of production still and some storyboards
And a few comments on some of the above... --The tribute to DeForest Kelly was nice, pointing our just how much work he did before Star Trekt hat most fans are totally unaware of. --The Perils of Peacemaking -- in which the film's story is compared and contrasted with real world events -- was an interesting ideas, but I wish there'd been less about the film itself and more about the parallels. They could easily have included film clips to illustrate where a lot of the lines were borrowed from. --Penny's Toybox. A neat look into the archives to see some of the surviving props from the film. --Storyboards. What's with these effects guys who can't draw the Enterprise correctly? Fer Pete's sake, it's easy to draw (if you have any artistic ability)!
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by MrNeutron: --Storyboards. What's with these effects guys who can't draw the Enterprise correctly? Fer Pete's sake, it's easy to draw (if you have any artistic ability)!
For Example:
And what's worse was the USS Excelsior:
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
Well, there's the obvious question of "Why should they?"
Posted by Fleet-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
Exactly... its just storyboards.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mucus: Well, there's the obvious question of "Why should they?"
Because a) it gives a better idea of what the shot would actually look like if you draw the ship correctly, and b) considering the amount of "invented detail" on these drawings it's not like they're trying to hurry up and cheat it.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
This is the way it's always been done. In film school, I was taught the point of the storyboards is just to get an idea of where the camera's supposed to be, to get better ideas about compostition and movement than just the script. Thye're not MEANT to be detailed - instead, you hand it over to the FX guys and trust THEM to make the shot work properly.
It's not like drawing detailed drawings of Shatner or Nimoy talking would help any; again, it's the responsibility of the production crew to deliver on the basic idea. These days, it's a lot easier to create CGI storyboards, and even then they use only the most basic CG models that barely even keep the general shape.
Mark
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: This is the way it's always been done. In film school, I was taught the point of the storyboards is just to get an idea of where the camera's supposed to be, to get better ideas about compostition and movement than just the script. Thye're not MEANT to be detailed - instead, you hand it over to the FX guys and trust THEM to make the shot work properly.
I'm quite aware of that. I was mostly kidding about the crappy Enterprise drawings, because, frankly, any competent sketch artist should be able to draw any Enterprise more or less accurately in less than a minute (hell, I can rough one out in 15 seconds). It's not exactly an intricate shape! Posted by SoundEffect (Member # 926) on :
quote:Originally posted by MrNeutron: Just got it at Best Buy for $14.99 + tax.
Wow. I got mine for $13.99 Canadian at Future Shop! Wow, what would that be in American dollars? About $9 or $10 bucks?
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
$11.98 for me at Costco. The list price is indeed $14.99, which is cheaper than any other Trek DVD thus far. (Typically they have been between $20.00 and $25.00) I think the reason for the lower price is there was no insert included with the discs.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
You know, I forgot about this, but when I glanced in the Star Trek VI screenplay tonight I was reminded that the script DID address what is a blooper in the film: that the Excelsior is cataloguing gaseous anomolies, but then Uhura makes reference to the equipment for same.
41 INT. R DECK CORRIDOR
leaving the Enterprise Science Labs...
GORKON Your research laboratory is most impressive...
KIRK Starfleet's been charting and cataloging planetary atmospheres. All vessels are equipped with chemical analytic sensors...
GORKON This cannot be easy for you, Captain... (off the look) I would feel awkward if I had to give you a tour of OUR vessel...
The man's courtesy makes Kirk feel guilty...
KIRK Would you care to go topside?
CHANG Very much.
CHEKOV (pulling Kirk aside) Captain, you're not going to show them the bridge??
KIRK (clenched teeth) Full diplomatic courtesy, Mr. Chekov...
The party passes Uhura and a YOUNGER CREWMAN. YOUNGER CREWMAN Would you want your daughter to marry one?
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
BLIND PRESIDENT
One of the things I didn't get watching Star Trek VI in the past is that the President of the Federation is supposed to be blind. This is revealed inthe commentary track. They explain that he puts on these weird glasses to look at the Operation Retreive charts in order to actually see them (a VISOR of sorts?). If you watch his performance carefully, you'll notice he doesn't really make eye contact with anyone. And at the end of the movie -- after Kirk tackles him -- you can sort of tell he's supposed to be blind by the way he moves when Kirk leaves him.
In the commentary I wish they'd discussed why they made that choice for the character.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Probably for the same reason that "24" has a black president. To be progressive.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Except that it's quite obvious that the president in "24" is black. At least, I assume it is. I haven't watched the show, but I'm normally pretty good at working out whether someone is black or not. I HAVE SKILLS!
But, er, it's not obvious that the President in ST VI is blind. So either they should be applauded for their subtlty, or shot for not being obvious enough.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I always just thougt he was an albino or something: he really looks no diffrent from the saratoga's conn officer to me.
Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
The Novel labels them as Efrafan, but doesn't say anything about blindness.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by TheWoozle: The Novel labels them as Efrafan, but doesn't say anything about blindness.
The screenplay says nothing about it, either. Musta been an on-set decision.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Actually, IIRC, the novelization says he is a male Deltan---which is pure and unadulterated bullshit---and the makeup people on the film called him an Efrosian. (Named for makeup designer Mel Efros.)
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Has anyone noticed that some dialogue is muted?
Kirk's last line to Spock in the quarters scene, "Come on, I need you" and Chekov's(?) line during the battle, "Excelsior's been hit!" both seemed really low, and hard to hear ... (and easy to miss).
Other things I noticed:
1. Going into the battle scene, the cute Oriental lieutenant in the grey turtleneck (who is seen on the bridge in several scenes, including the Klingon Dictionary translation) is seated at the helm. We see her in two seperate shots. After the Enterprise is hit for the first time, there's an enlisted guy in the helm seat bouncing around.
2. After Valeris "waporizes" the cooking pot, the alarm sounds. "As you know, Commander Chekov, no one may fire an unauthorized phaser about a starship." I mean, not bringing up Chekov's apparent ignorance of this, it's important to note that Valeris doesn't say "no one may fire an unauthorized phaser on a starship that is set to vaporize." No one may fire a phaser *period*. So why should it matter that the assassins were killed at close-range on stun? The alarms still would have sounded. You could argue that Valeris had "authorized" herself, but the computer would still be able to say "Lt. Valeris authorized phaser fire by herself."
Anyways ...
3) Anyone think Valeris faced any prison time? I mean, couldn't the forced mind-meld be considered, to an extent, torture?
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay: Has anyone noticed that some dialogue is muted?
Kirk's last line to Spock in the quarters scene, "Come on, I need you" and Chekov's(?) line during the battle, "Excelsior's been hit!" both seemed really low, and hard to hear ... (and easy to miss).
The former is just Shatner's performance and I hear it just fine. The latter is a muted because it's not being said by an on-screen character, and it's redundant anyway. We SEE Excelsior's been hit. In fact, one thing that bugs me about this movie is all the overdubbing to explain the obvious.
Here's something I just noticed (I'm sure others have seen it before). When the Excelsior gets hit and they show the crew running around, as the big engineering door comes down, you can see the Enterprise silhouette on the wall panel there. Oops.
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
Well, not pointed out by others, but when we first see Engineering (as the E-A has just exited Spacedock), the stations in front of Scotty still have the TNG graphics.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
MrNeutron, but I can recall on my laserdisc of the movie, the line being much louder.
Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim: Actually, IIRC, the novelization says he is a male Deltan---which is pure and unadulterated bullshit---and the makeup people on the film called him an Efrosian. (Named for makeup designer Mel Efros.)
That's what I get for replying from work. It was the St: IV novelization that listed the helsman as Efrosian. By the time they made ST: VI, the same makup and prosthetics probobly had that lable.
Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
quote:Originally posted by TheWoozle: That's what I get for replying from work. It was the St: IV novelization that listed the helsman as Efrosian. By the time they made ST: VI, the same makup and prosthetics probobly had that lable.
I'm afraid not. The ST IV novelization also used Deltan for the helmsman, and his name, Lt. Chitirih Ra-Dreii, is consistant with the Deltan naming style Vonda used in her other novels. Come to think of it, didn't the president have a similar style name in the ST VI novel? It's been a long while since I read it.
The novel also says he's the science officer, not the helmsman, and gives him most of the dialogue spoken by the movie's human science officer as well as his own. Obviously Vonda didn't have the final version of the script to work with. =)
(I DO wish the film had kept the whole dialogue from the "how do we know he didn't invent transparent aluminium" scene. I heard it was filmed....)
If I remember correctly, FASA's RPG sourcebook for Star Trek IV assigned the term "Efrosian" to one of the alien races in the Council Room scene. But I can't find my copy to check. On the other hand, if I remember correctly, what it says about them is worthy of being forgotten...
Marian
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay: Has anyone noticed that some dialogue is muted?
Kirk's last line to Spock in the quarters scene, "Come on, I need you" and Chekov's(?) line during the battle, "Excelsior's been hit!" both seemed really low, and hard to hear ... (and easy to miss).
Chekov is saying "Fuckin' gook...that ship should've been mine..." We already know Chekov's a racist (to Klingons at least) so it fits well.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
BTW, does anyone actually have that speech of the President in text? IIRC, he says some pretty big things that should have affected the Star Trek universe way more than it did. Complete evacuation of the Klingon homeworld, cutting down forces on both sides. Hell, they even wanted us to believe that Starfleet's sole purpose was to defend Kirk's ego from the Klingons...
About the alleged blindness... If the man was blind, why did he have visual communications with Azet'bur? OTOH, his blindness might explain the Romulan ambassador being on his side most of the time Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
He was probably a lame duck president with only a year or so left in office anyway... Then it was "Starfleet as usual", continuing their mission of conq...er..exploration!
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"If the man was blind, why did he have visual communications with Azet'bur?"
Well, she wasn't blind.
"So why should it matter that the assassins were killed at close-range on stun? The alarms still would have sounded."
Well, it may be that, if you're close enough to the person you're shooting (like, say, holding the tip of the phaser against their body), the ship's sensors can't detect the beam.
What bothers me more is how a phaser on stun can kill someone, just because the range is shorter.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
Well, a stun beam could still be lethal if you were hit on the head by it.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Or were shot for a solid thirty seconds, perhaps.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I don't know if this is in the novel, but I got the impression that it was also where they were shot. Maybe being hit at extreme range in, say, the temple might do it.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Hate to think what would happen if you got phasered in the nether-regions at such close range ...
I seem to recall, perhaps from the novel, dialogue which indicated that a close-range phaser shot on stun at the stem of the spinal cord could kill.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I'd imagine if you got stunned in the temple or down the throat, you'd be history as well.
...or if they did ya "buckwheats" style and shot you up your asshole.
Posted by WizArtist (Member # 1095) on :
Next on Federation's Funniest Videos....
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by MrNeutron: Okay, so I watched the film and the extras. Here's my quick rundown:
FILM. This is essentially the version we've seen for years, including the extra scenes not in the original theatrical release (Operation Retrieve, Spock, Scotty and Valeris in the torpedo bay, the revelation that the "Klingon" assassin is Colonet West).
If you compare this film to the previous Trek SEs you'll notice the size of the letterbox bars is smaller. This is due to the format Meyer shot on, which is a slightly different aspect ratio to the other films.
Meyer did do a few small edits, though. The ones I noticed are: 1. Added a wide shot of the officer's mess at the start of the scene where Scotty discovers the uniforms.
I have that in my video version that you got in the wide-screen boxed set. Scotty's on the very left reading his 'schematics'.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by MrNeutron: The latter is a muted because it's not being said by an on-screen character, and it's redundant anyway. We SEE Excelsior's been hit. In fact, one thing that bugs me about this movie is all the overdubbing to explain the obvious.
Actually its a nice piece of continuity/a funny considering for the whole 25 years? of Chekov he was the one to CONSTANTLY point out the obvious in most situations.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I remember an interview with Michael Dorn about Star Trek VI - and he said the spent a fair amount of time filming an impressive scene at the Khitomer Conference with all the various parties entering in full regalia etc. So is this not on the DVD?????????????? That's rediculous if it isn't.
Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :
Have you seen the Special Edition DVD for sale anywhere yet, AndrewR? It was supposedly released in Australia yesterday but none of my local shops seem to have it yet. Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: I remember an interview with Michael Dorn about Star Trek VI - and he said the spent a fair amount of time filming an impressive scene at the Khitomer Conference with all the various parties entering in full regalia etc. So is this not on the DVD?????????????? That's rediculous if it isn't.
I remember that scene (or parts thereof). It features the President walking in with his wife... I guess the scene was on the 'standard' STVI DVD or something?
Sadly, like in most Trek movies, a lot of effort was put into designing great aliens, but they were barely glimpsed, and apparently not documented at all...
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dax: Have you seen the Special Edition DVD for sale anywhere yet, AndrewR? It was supposedly released in Australia yesterday but none of my local shops seem to have it yet.
No I haven't seen it yet, but I haven't exactly been looking - I only realised that we should at least have ST:V SE on DVD now... bit behind! Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Harry:
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: I remember an interview with Michael Dorn about Star Trek VI - and he said the spent a fair amount of time filming an impressive scene at the Khitomer Conference with all the various parties entering in full regalia etc. So is this not on the DVD?????????????? That's rediculous if it isn't.
I remember that scene (or parts thereof). It features the President walking in with his wife... I guess the scene was on the 'standard' STVI DVD or something?
Sadly, like in most Trek movies, a lot of effort was put into designing great aliens, but they were barely glimpsed, and apparently not documented at all...
Don't remember the wife bit!! (Well at least on the video - funny that they should add it in for the non SE version DVD)
Michael Dorn said it was an elaborate scene that took all day to film and they announced the arrival of each 'government'. Must have been a lot of film on the editing room floor, as the only 'entrance' we get is a matte shot of a Fed and Klingon outside the auditorium-cum-rebel-borg headquarters-cum-some-library. Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Not too mention a Power Ranger HQ.
Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: No I haven't seen it yet, but I haven't exactly been looking - I only realised that we should at least have ST:V SE on DVD now... bit behind!
OK. Thanks anyway.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: Don't remember the wife bit!! (Well at least on the video - funny that they should add it in for the non SE version DVD)
Erm, they don't.
Posted by Kosa (Member # 650) on :
I still havent seen it on shelves. You yet Dax?
Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kosa: I still havent seen it on shelves. You yet Dax?
No, it's not out here yet. The release date has been changed to 4th of March.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Is there any mention in the behind the scenes stuff on the changes made to the Excelsior studio model?
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam:
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: Don't remember the wife bit!! (Well at least on the video - funny that they should add it in for the non SE version DVD)
Erm, they don't.
Well I'm only going by what Harry said:
"I remember that scene (or parts thereof). It features the President walking in with his wife... I guess the scene was on the 'standard' STVI DVD or something?" Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
"I guess that scene was on..."
Posted by SoundEffect (Member # 926) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Is there any mention in the behind the scenes stuff on the changes made to the Excelsior studio model?
Unfortunately there wasn't a dedicated model section at all, although Nick Meyer got his fair share of interviews in. No model shots at all that I've come across.
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
It would have been nice if that was included in "Penny's Toy Box".
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dat: It would have been nice if that was included in "Penny's Toy Box".
Generally speaking, SFX miniatures aren't usually stored with the props.
Posted by Austin Powers (Member # 250) on :
Depends. Sometimes a lot of them are, as seen in the TNG Bonus materials with Penny showing us her archive.
Posted by Austin Powers (Member # 250) on :
Right. My RC2 set has arrived. No Enterprise-B on any of the discs...
Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :
The Region 4 one is out now too. Also no Ent-B to be seen.
It's a pity that I found watching this movie again to be horribly boring. Probably the most (perhaps only) intersting thing is the interviews included on the bonus disc.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR:
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam:
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: Don't remember the wife bit!! (Well at least on the video - funny that they should add it in for the non SE version DVD)
Erm, they don't.
Well I'm only going by what Harry said:
"I remember that scene (or parts thereof). It features the President walking in with his wife... I guess the scene was on the 'standard' STVI DVD or something?"
I got the DVD just the other day and the bit with the president and his wife is in fact a part of the theatrical trailer, along with a similar shot of Azetbur and co arriving at Khitomer...all three seconds of it.
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
My take on the disc and movie:
It's too bad. I remembered liking this movie a lot more the last time than I did this time through. Pacing problems. Kinda dragged ass in many scenes, tried to be everything to all people and suffered greatly for striving for such mediocrity. Dunno. Seems like with the people involved, it should have been far better. It's not terrible, it's just... meh. Not really the coup de grace the Star Trek (OS) legacy deserved.
Also the bonus stuff was piddly weak tea. Well that's not 100% true, but there wasn't near as much as I'd hoped for, and it would seem, as much as there could have been. In one of the making-of featurettes, Shatner talks about how he wanted to add this gesture to the end of his 'let them die' speech (which I actualy agree with), but then they showed the raw clip of that with the gesture. Which when combined with some of the raw Brock Peters shots makes me think there must have been more we could have seen. Sadly, I liked the STV special features better.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I haven't seen this fancy special edition thing yet, but, Star Trek VI is possibly my second favorite, on account of it being the only movie that really uses the Federation as something more than background detail. (Though keep in mind this is from someone who thinks Star Trek: Dry Political Speechifying is a neat idea.)
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
I think a big part of the story problems with ST6 is that its production was rushed in order to get it out for the 25th anniversary year, and that Paramount hired other writers to work on the script, which Meyer and Denny Martin Flynn took over, which wasted time. The script always feels second draft to me...mostly there but lacking some refining to fix the some problems.
Like Chang...the literary quotes in TWOK are very specific and relate to the story. Here they just feel like "look, we can quote Shakespeare!"
Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
I wished they had filmed the original script idea of having Kirk and crew come out of retirement and having Kirk tracking them down. the original script had Sulu playing taxi driver and Uhura as a radio show host...
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by TheWoozle: I wished they had filmed the original script idea of having Kirk and crew come out of retirement and having Kirk tracking them down. the original script had Sulu playing taxi driver and Uhura as a radio show host...
I disliked that idea. As if after all those years in Starfleet they'd actually have to take crap jobs like that. It also wouldn't have worked because there wasn't enough time between the movies for that to feel believeable.
Posted by Captain Mike XLVII (Member # 709) on :
quote:Originally posted by MarianLH: Come to think of it, didn't the president have a similar style name in the ST VI novel? It's been a long while since I read it.
President Ra-Ghoratrei
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
Here they just feel like "look, we can quote Shakespeare!"
Yes, and the rest of the movie feels like "look, we can do real-word political parallels too! Federation Daily headline: Chancellor Gorkontsjov of Klingian Empire seeks peace and rapproachment after disaster with Tsjernaxis", but it's still one of Trek's better efforts.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
The main disapointment in the movie for me is the complete lack of phaser fire in the ship combat.
Pretty silly really. The KBOP could have strafed the Enterprise and been long gone before any retaliation and when the fire-while-cloaked-and-kick-your-ass-KBOP is discovered, everyone pounds on it with only HALF their arsenal?
Smaaaart.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: The main disapointment in the movie for me is the complete lack of phaser fire in the ship combat.
And that is why I hate Star Trek fans.
But...
quote:The KBOP could have strafed the Enterprise and been long gone before any retaliation
How do you know that the BOP could fire disrupters while cloaked? Maybe only the torpedoes worked?
Besides, Chang obviously wasn't in any hurry to destroy Kirk. He was prolonging the experience, making Kirk realise he was helpless.
quote:and when the fire-while-cloaked-and-kick-your-ass-KBOP is discovered, everyone pounds on it with only HALF their arsenal?
Smaaaart.
Christ, yes. With phasers as well, the BOP might have been destroyed in 3 seconds, instead of 6. Think of the time saved!
And when have original series ships ever fired phasers and torpedoes simultaniously anyway?
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: The main disapointment in the movie for me is the complete lack of phaser fire in the ship combat.
Yeah, Lord know that's more annoying than the plot holes, clumsy writing, or characterization inconsistencies. Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Well, with all those "plot holes, clumsy writing, or characterization inconsistencies", all I have left to look forward to in that movie is the space battle!
Besides, I'm a starship modeler: we look for stuff like that more than most people. Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: And when have original series ships ever fired phasers and torpedoes simultaniously anyway?
It's never said they cant either....it was just never done because any TOS effects were likely re-used shots from even older episodes.
My point is that they could have been taking pot shots at the KBOP with their energy weapons (the ones that cover ther entire ship) instead of their relativly slow torpedos that they fired only after they knew exactly where the enemy was.
Couldnt they have set the torpedos to detonate near the KBP's last known position? Even such "depth charge" tactics beat nothing at all.
If Chang wasnt such a showboat, the Enterprise would've been destroyed before Excelsior got there.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
This is the most sorrowful detail of Trek today, that Nemesis, with its unprecedented detail and skill of showing a space battle, should be the last movie.
Oh, if they'd only done a DS9/TNG war arc movie, with the dynamics of Starfleet ships vs. Dominion or some other power, coupled with the quality shit of "Nemesis".
The "Nemesis" VFX were the best ever, all categories, with real 3D maneuvers, all the different weapons the Sovereign carries plus a modernization of the way phaser fire reacts in space (kind of like spraying party-fizz from an aerosol can). Even the jump to warp looked better than the old "suck spagetti into mouth"-effect.
What I don't get is why the Trek-battles would stay so slow and sluggish from TWOK all the way to "Generations" when "Return of the Jedi" had showed, in 1983 already, how dynamic space battles could really be?
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
I think it is only to Kirk's credit that he didn't fire a single shot of ANY type until he knew where Chang was. Random potshots and "depth charges" and might be fine if Kirk were hunting down Chang, but that was not his intention at all. Chang was hunting Kirk, and Kirk was only trying to get to transporter range of Khitomer to save the President.
We saw little of the maneuvers performed in the battle, but to me it looks Kirk was seeking for openings, and Chang was systematically blocking those, firing only when Kirk was getting too close to the real goal. For Chang, wouldn't it have been a splendid development to have the UFP Prez assassinated, and *then* have Kirk beam down to the scene of the crime, with a flimsy story of a "conspiracy", and no alibi?
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
The only problem with that theory is that we dont see Enterprise trying to get to khitomer at all once the shooting starts....it's just sort of sitting there looking for a way to find Chang while it's getting pounded.
If they'd been desperately limping towards the planet when Excelsior showed up it would've played a lot better. As it stands, the momentum of the whole "race against time" to save the President is lost once the battle starts.
I think for Chang a better senario (and less risky) would be to personally destroy the man that assasinated Gorkon (and then escaped from Klingon-alcatraz) as the nefarious starship captain was preparing to kill the new chancelor as well.
I dont think Chang would have stopped eliminating his enemies until he was chancelor himself.
Posted by SoundEffect (Member # 926) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nim: What I don't get is why the Trek-battles would stay so slow and sluggish from TWOK all the way to "Generations" when "Return of the Jedi" had showed, in 1983 already, how dynamic space battles could really be?
I will make an exception for the USS Defiant, but all other starship battles were waged as though the audience were looking at submarines. The types of battles we were seeing with the unrealistic maneuvering of Mirandas, Galaxys, Nebulas, etc., should never have happened. It would be like watching "Hunt for Red Oktober" and seeing the subs pitch and turn like the Battle of Endor...unbelieveable. It's more fun to watch perhaps, but you have to draw the line somewhere.
Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
I agree, having Chang kill the starfleet assassans would have been a smart thing to do... but the plan was to have the ships start fighting and perpetuate a war.
The Enterprise couldn't lower their shields to transport, so they had to destroy the BoP first. The Enterprise took a pounding with shields up, imagine what those torpedoes would have done with no shields (think: Grissom)
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: My point is that they could have been taking pot shots at the KBOP with their energy weapons (the ones that cover ther entire ship) instead of their relativly slow torpedos that they fired only after they knew exactly where the enemy was.
Couldnt they have set the torpedos to detonate near the KBP's last known position? Even such "depth charge" tactics beat nothing at all.
They address that in the novelisation (and for all I know, the original script). Spock mentions that by the time they track where the torpedo came from and return fire, the BOP will almost certainly have moved, so it would be pointless.
And since when does the Enterprise-A have energy weapons covering the entire ship? At last glance, it only had them on the saucer.
And, finally, do you realise how big space actually is? The chances of hitting the BOP with random weapons fire would have been astronomical. All that would happen is that the Enterprise would wear down it's energy stores without any benefit.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
The Enterprise has phaser banks at the very bottom of the secondary hull and above the shuttlebay as well: the whole ship's weapon's arcs are covered by at least two emitters.
I know all about space being...well, astronomically large, I just figured they could- via those supposedly super computers, track a torpedo's point of origin and fire in the immeadeate space around that point. It's what Enterprise E does in Nemesis to greater effect (due to the Sovvie having more phaser banks). Even a glancing shot with phaserswould have critically damaged the KBOP as it was running without shields.
Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
I tend to think that phasers are completely pointless against shields.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Normally though the computers don't need to track where a weapon was fired from, as the ship itself is on sensors. Given that the photon torpedoes might take a few microseconds to appear on the sensors, coupled with the fact that the ship is hit by them shortly afterwards, probably makes tracking their origin point nigh-impossible.
See, the difference in our reasoning is that you assume that Kirk (or the writers) never thought of these things, whereas I think that he (or they) did, and they just didn't bother talking us through the stages step by step.
And does it have phaser banks on the bottom of the secondary hull and above the shuttle bay? I've never seen them. Granted, I'm going by not-overly-clear memories of the movies, along with the AMT model, but I'm not remembering any.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
It's not that I think the writers didint think of such things, it's that I think they decided to go with torpedos only for dramatic effect (regardless of it making a lot of sense).
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