- I was sort of expecting it, but it's nice to have confirmation that "The Cage" is included in the S1 box.
- Order by air-date. That sucks a bit. Even the BBC managed to air them in production order, with makes a lot more sense. But from a studio POV, 'making sense' is of course not a priority.
- Behind-the-scenes? Could that be an original 60s docu?
- Allegedly, these boxes are R2 only? R1 already has the over-expensive 2-episode sets.
- Box shots, and more. Labeled "Star Trek: The Original Series", and probably just a slight mod of the TNG/VOY box design. But they look like brightly colored blobs.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Harry: [QBOrder by air-date. That sucks a bit. Even the BBC managed to air them in production order, with makes a lot more sense. But from a studio POV, 'making sense' is of course not a priority.[/QB]
You sure? When the BBC started showing TOS back in the 90s, they began with "The Man Trap", and "Where No Man Has Gone Before" was the third episode shown. Unless they changed at a later point, the BBC went with Air-Date order.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by Harry: - Allegedly, these boxes are R2 only? R1 already has the over-expensive 2-episode sets.
Son of a bitch...
What the fuck?
Like hell I'm buying TOS 2 episodes at a time...
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam:
quote:Originally posted by Harry: [QBOrder by air-date. That sucks a bit. Even the BBC managed to air them in production order, with makes a lot more sense. But from a studio POV, 'making sense' is of course not a priority.
You sure? When the BBC started showing TOS back in the 90s, they began with "The Man Trap", and "Where No Man Has Gone Before" was the third episode shown. Unless they changed at a later point, the BBC went with Air-Date order. [/QB]
The 2000-ish reruns of TOS did air in production order. They started with "The Cage", and sadly stranded somewhere halfway season two.
I've thought about it again, though.. Perhaps the original airing order is the most faithful representation of the series, even though it doesn't really work.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I've always been under the impression that airing order was the favored order.
Posted by MirrorCaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
not in my book..
airing order is wildly different from filming order for TOS, the order they were filmed shows a logical progression from the shows infancy to the later episodes, some installments from even a few weeks apart just are thematically out of place from the episodes they'd be placed in between if they were done in airing order (Where No Man Has Gone Before comes to mind).
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Yeah. Especially the start of the series makes little sence in airing order. So much so that it simply can't be the 'real' order of events.
Big pictures (although the 2&3 boxes are mislabeled). And it seems it *is* coming out in R1.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: I've always been under the impression that airing order was the favored order.
What exactly was it that gave you this impression? Even if it weren't for that whole common sense thing, (I mean, come on, airdate order puts "Where No Man Has Gone Before" AFTER "The Man Trap" and "Charlie X" !!) all of the official literature (Encyclopedia, Chronology) uses production order.
It's really the only way the progression of events makes sense. (Arguments about stardate order notwithstanding.)
-MMoM Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
Originally posted by Harry:
quote:And it seems it *is* coming out in R1.
Yay!!!!
If they have a menu anything like the DS9 disks, you can watch them in order easily enough, however they're arranged. At worst you have to change disks more often. After all, those who don't know the proper order probably don't care, either.
Marian
Posted by MirrorCaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim: blah official literature blah
actually, the Chronology uses airing order, which was quite annoying as it got the ball rolling on the whole 'showing them out of order thing' which has become fad.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Um, I can't speak as to the original edition of the Chronology, but the 1996 version uses production order. And so does the Encyclopedia.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
I mean, come on, airdate order puts "Where No Man Has Gone Before" AFTER "The Man Trap" and "Charlie X" !!
Strictly speaking, airing order would place "The Cage" AFTER everything else. But that's unnecessarily pedantic. Posted by MirrorCaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
i have the same edition, i should have been more clear, they decided to use airing order for DS9 and Voyager.. pointed out in the introduction.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim: Um, I can't speak as to the original edition of the Chronology, but the 1996 version uses production order. And so does the Encyclopedia.
Same deal in the original (1993) edition - production order.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Well, they're obviously going to use airing order for TNG, DS9 and Voyager. Otherwise "Unification part 2" would come before part 1, Family would occur half way through the season, and so on...
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
For the other series besides TOS, airdate order is just fine. But there are particular continuity problems with the unfortunate and seemingly-haphazard order in which NBC originally chose to air those episodes.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Unlike the seemingly-haphazard order in which they were thought up, written, and filmed?
(And it would appear I blanked on the exact meaning of air date versus production date last time.)
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Exactly. Apart from "Where No Man Has Gone Before", TOS can be shown in almost any order imaginable. There are, what, about 5 continuity references to previous episodes throughout the entire show?
Posted by MirrorCaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
yes, but the uniforms change slightly, as do the haircuts and finishing details on the starship models.
some people take this very seriously.
Posted by Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
THOSE PEOPLE ARE TURDS
Posted by MirrorCaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
i protest, sir, that you just called me a turd.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"...and finishing details on the starship models."
Yeah, but those change from episode to... later in the same episode.
Posted by Manticore (Member # 1227) on :
Later in the same scene too sometimes, IIRC...
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
They could have always aired by stardate... that would have put people here into apoplexy!
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
And when do the uniforms change? The only instances that come to mind are Uhura in gold, and Kirk's obsession with wearing his green-uniform during the middle of season 2. That can easily be mixed up, and Uhura wearing gold was pretty weird, anyway, and so can be filed away under "cock-up".
I suppose there's the fact that Sulu seems to be a botanist or something early on, but doesn't he jump to and from that job anyway in production and airing order?
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Sulu started out as a physician under Dr. Piper (or whatever his name was) in WNMHGB. That episode also featured different uniforms, etc, etc.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Agreed that the sets and uniforms and hairdos and whatnot shouldn't much affect the continuity of the episodes. There were no changes that would have "stuck" enough to merit "continuity status".
...Of course, one could keep track of the things McCoy scavenges from alien planets and adds to his laboratory. Or the constant redecorating Scotty seems to be obsessed with. But McCoy's kleptomania could be interspliced with bouts of conscience that cause him to return some of the objects before stealing them again. And Scotty could simply have different engine rooms for different days of week, each with a differently colored door.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
And the Romulans might have scanned NOMAD from long distance and decided to use it as the basis for their cloaking device.
Tholian ships are so stylish that private comapanies started making ships to look just like them, but with nacelles added. Someone at the plant read the tholian schematic wrong and designed te ship "backward".
Orions actually use photon torpedos as their spacecraft.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by Harry: Sulu started out as a physician...
Physicist, actually. Notable difference. Posted by Sea Tyger (Member # 1313) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim: Physicist, actually. Notable difference.
I'm glad you said it; I wouldn't have been as nice. Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
What episodes was he a physicist in? Obviously WNMHGB, but wasn't he also a physicist in "The Man Trap", and possibly another episode?
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
No. At least not that I know of.
There are a few other crew shifts: the dissapearance of Yeoman Rand and the introduction of Chekov (who, by TWOK, we must assume already worked on the Enterprise)
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
But Rand's appearences don't have to be consecutive. They never said "I miss Rand since she transfered off the ship". Likewise with Chekov, they never acknoweldged his appearence.
And besides, Sulu dissapears for a good chunk of episodes in a row (in season 2, I believe). There's no great rush though to claim that they occured before the others, is there?
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
This is getting far too petty.
1) "The Cage" - for obvious reasons should be first.
2) The next episode would be "WNMHGB", because of noticable differences in crew positions at the time, including the CMO Mark Piper and Sulu the physicist. After this the crew situation smooths out.
Another observation of continuity would be Spocks rank. He begins as a Lt. Commander but is a full Commander midway through the first season, and thereafter. That is one thing that was screwed up if you went by Air Date. In "The Menagerie" (aired Nov 1966) he is a full commander but in "Court Martial" (aired Feb 1967) his rank is given as a Lt. Commander. So those of Spock as a Lt. Commander would be before him as a Commander.
Additionally, you would have to have episodes, for continuities sake, like "The Menagerie" (1 then 2 - obviously), "Mudd's Women" before "I, Mudd"; "Balance of Terror" before "The Enterpise Incident" (and to some extent "The Deadly Years"); "Tomorrow is Yesterday" before "Assignment: Earth". Production order would also prevail over explaining the confusion of who owned the battle cruiser first in "Elaan of Troyius" and "The Enterprise Incident", which otherwise aired opposite of production.
Thats all I can think of off the top of my head. The rest is just petty stuff, and the rest of the series could pretty much be shown in whatever order you want.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Spock always wore the rank insignia of a full commander though, even in "Court Martial". So that could be put in the catagory of "dialogue cock-up".
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Or "rank insignia cock-up."
Posted by MirrorCaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
if both the dialogue and insignia were wrong, its possible then he was supposed to be a CPO.
Posted by Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
Whatever it is, he should Eat More Salsa, that's for sure.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim: Or "rank insignia cock-up."
Fair point. It just makes more sense to me for the first officer of one of the best ships in the fleet to be a commander. And it also makes him outrank the second officer.
Is he called a Lt Commander in any of the pre-production material?
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Well, during the hearing in "The Menagerie," his rank is again given explicitly as Lt. Commander.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Wait, Futurama Guy said that he was a full commander there, and a lt commander in "Court Martial". So, which one was it? Or was it both?
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
According to these transcripts, he was identified as a Lieutenant Commander in both episodes.
-MMoM Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Eh, well...I was just referring to the Chronology for quick reference...
Anyway, I guess the point is is that at some point his rank *seems* to have changed during the run of the series.
Posted by MirrorCaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
HE WORE THE INSIGNIA OF A FULL COMMANDER FOR THE ENTIRE SERIES YET WAS REFERRED TO ONCE OR MORE THAN ONCE AS LIEUTENANT COMMANDER
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
DIE POST DIE!!!
This is getting far too petty.
1) "The Cage" - for obvious reasons should be first.
2) The next episode would be "WNMHGB", because of noticable differences in crew positions at the time, including the CMO Mark Piper and Sulu the physicist. After this the crew situation smooths out.
Additionally, you would have to have episodes, for continuities sake, like "The Menagerie" (1 then 2 - obviously), "Mudd's Women" before "I, Mudd"; "Balance of Terror" before "The Enterpise Incident" (and to some extent "The Deadly Years"); "Tomorrow is Yesterday" before "Assignment: Earth". Production order would also prevail over explaining the confusion of who owned the battle cruiser first in "Elaan of Troyius" and "The Enterprise Incident", which otherwise aired opposite of production.
Thats all there is and there ain't no more.
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
Salsa tastes good.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Gives me heartburn *burp*.
Posted by F.G. (Member # 968) on :
- I was sort of expecting it, but it's nice to have confirmation that "The Cage" is included in the S1 box.
- Order by air-date. That sucks a bit. Even the BBC managed to air them in production order, with makes a lot more sense. But from a studio POV, 'making sense' is of course not a priority.
- Behind-the-scenes? Could that be an original 60s docu?
- Allegedly, these boxes are R2 only? R1 already has the over-expensive 2-episode sets.
- Box shots, and more. Labeled "Star Trek: The Original Series", and probably just a slight mod of the TNG/VOY box design. But they look like brightly colored blobs.
Well, for those of you too lazy to look, yet interested enough to somehow care, it would seem that the Region 1 Season 1 release of TOS will not include "The Cage". All episodes will be presented in the order which they were aired versus production order. Evidently, "The Cage" will be on the Season 3 set...which strangely makes sense.
The release dates of TOS season sets (region 1) are: - Season 1 on 8/31 - Season 2 on 11/2 - Season 3 on 12/7 - The Complete Series on 12/7
That is all.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
I've been a loyal obedient customer and bought the set today (hooray for an earlier release date than the US! ).
Despite the fact that the box can only just stand up on it's own (it's very precarously balanced), everything is Good. I've just seen Balance of Terror, and it still is the best Trek space battle.
Now excuse me while I catch up with TOS.
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote:All episodes will be presented in the order which they were aired
That's outrageous. We're supposed to pay 95 Euros, yet they dare to use the illogical airing order.
Posted by F.G. (Member # 968) on :
Suppose they just want us experience it as they did 40 years ago when it first aired...nevertheless, at least we wont be stupid enough to buy it as 40-double discs.
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
At least the double discs are in chronological order, aren't they?
quote:Suppose they just want us experience it as they did 40 years ago when it first aired
But I don't want to. I want to watch it in a logical order without having to constantly switch disks. What bugs me most is that this is so typical for all Paramount Star Trek DVD releases (at least Region 2). They charge a high price but deliver an inferior product.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
The 2-ep discs are in production order.
The box is in airing order. I actually don't have a problem with it. Because, after all, *this* is the original series as it was on television in the 60s.
How was/is TOS aired in syndication? I know the BBC aired them in production order, even starting out with "The Cage", around 1999 or so. But Paramount still seems to adhere quite strictly to the airing order. So did some Trekkie BBC employee put them in the right order?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
So...are these DVD versions cleaned up digitally or just transfered onto the new format?
If it's the same quality I can see any day on Sci-Fi channel, I'll pass.
....but if I could just get nicely restored versions of Arena, Doomsday Machine and Balance of Terror, I'd be pretty happy.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
These episodes are digitally remastered. Very similar to the 2-episode DVDs, but not the same. See Trek5.com for screenshots.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Two questions:
1/ Why are people so outraged that the episodes are in airing order? Didn't we work out just recently that air-date order as oppossed to production order affects roughly one episode? Ever?
2/ I don't know why everyone seems to think that the BBC aired them in production order, but all the repeats I remember had WNMHGB as the third episode. So, production order.
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote:Didn't we work out just recently that air-date order as oppossed to production order affects roughly one episode?
Because it's the pilot episode with different uniforms and other significant differences. And as Harry mentioned they've already released TOS in production order, so I really don't understand why they decided to go back to the airing order.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: 2/ I don't know why everyone seems to think that the BBC aired them in production order, but all the repeats I remember had WNMHGB as the third episode. So, production order.
I have VHS tapes as proof. Somewhere 1999-ish, the BBC showed reruns of TOS on Sunday-mornings. Sadly, it apparently had such a low priority that it was frequently replaced by sports and other nonsense. It even dissapeared completely somewhere halfway through season 2. But it was very definitely shown in production order.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Ahh, okay. The repeats done in the mid-90s (when they first showed "The Cage" on UK TV) were definitely air-date order though, as it was the first time I'd ever seen TOS.
quote:Originally posted by Spike: Because it's the pilot episode with different uniforms and other significant differences.
Okay, that makes sense. But apart from the pilot occuring as the third episode, is there any difference? At all? Is one single episode really worth being so outraged? Is it really enough to call it an "inferior product"?
Posted by F.G. (Member # 968) on :
No, No, No, I wouldn't think so.
Posted by Austin Powers (Member # 250) on :
And where's the problem anyway? You've got the first four episodes on one disc and can therefor choose your own preferred viewing order, can't you? So stop bitching and enjoy the great technical quality of the eps!
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
The case is so corny Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
Well, in defense of the box set, while the episodes are in airing order, they are numbered by production order, so you can watch them that way if you so desire, albeit it means more disc swapping.
I was disappointed by the extras...or the lack of them. Where are the old network promos? The piece with Shatner...who cares about his damned horses!
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Remember a few years ago they aired TOS in the States with Shatner, Koenig, Doohan, Nimoy and Takei doing intros to each episode - talking about something they remember about each episode. Plus they put back in edited footage etc. Do they include these on the DVDs? If they don't - that really sucks... Might make me second guess buying them.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :
Yeah, when the Sci Fi Channel got the exclusive airing rights to TOS and they aired each episode in their original NBC order. After commercial breaks they'd cut to cast and crew involved with that episode stretching it out to an hour and a half. I assumed each episode on DVD would include these since Sci Fi doesn't play them with the episodes anymore.
Posted by Austin Powers (Member # 250) on :
There are no intros by the cast on the RC2 edition of the DVDs, yet they at least managed to re-insert all the footage that had been cut by either the BBC or the ZDF in the 70s and 80s.
Posted by F.G. (Member # 968) on :
Sci-Fi Channel BUTCHERS TOS when they air it, which is like some shit hour like 3am, but they cut out a tremendous amount from each episode...
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :
That wouldn't surprise me. Also commercial breaks are to blame. In the 60s they were a lot shorter than today. So with longer commercial breaks they have to cut the show to still fit in an hour.
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
Keeping in mind that TV is commercials with something else shown in between (the "programming" is basically to keep people "hooked" between commercials), we can expect to eventually reach a point where there's 45 minutes of commercials with only 15 of anything else... (or worse)
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Uh, Star Trek is on the Sci-Fi Channel in the U.S. every day at noon. Or at least I seem to hear it in the other room when I am asleep at that hour. (When my father is home with the TV on. To that channel.)
Re: Supercommercial Future: I find this highly unlikely. There comes a point of diminishing returns. The idea is to get as much money as possible for time watched by as many people as possible, and these factors must balance. More likely, I think, is that commercials as we know them will simply disappear, replaced by some other revenue format. We already see companies making such attempts. Consider the wide success of the Tivo. (Suggesting a future in which you never see a commericial as we know them again, but instead every so often you get to see a brief spot directed at you personally, written by people who, thanks to data mining, know more about you than you do, probably.)
Posted by F.G. (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: Uh, Star Trek is on the Sci-Fi Channel in the U.S. every day at noon. Or at least I seem to hear it in the other room when I am asleep at that hour. (When my father is home with the TV on. To that channel.)
Thats entirely possible. I dont have cable anymore so I couldnt really say, however recently whenever I have been to my dads and want to catch its always listed at 3am on fridays or tuesdays or something.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Well, I guess one could always just look it up.
According to their website, the schedule is highly variable. For instance, today, it isn't on at all. Tomorrow, "The Enterprise Incident" at 3:00 AM. But next Wednesday it's Star Trek from 8:00 AM to 3:00 PM.
Posted by F.G. (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by MrNeutron:
I was disappointed by the extras...or the lack of them. Where are the old network promos? The piece with Shatner...who cares about his damned horses!
However, they do have the original episode promos, which cannot be said about the other series. Hell, it was the promo for "The Jem'Hadar" which pretty much focus on the last 10 minutes of the episode that first got me into DS9 - the promo dammit!
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
(If a person really wanted DS9 and TNG promos, he or she could try tracking down the CD versions of the concordances for those shows, which, I believe, included them.)
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by F.G.: Sci-Fi Channel BUTCHERS TOS when they air it, which is like some shit hour like 3am, but they cut out a tremendous amount from each episode...
They must cut out the good parts....most of the episodes they show involve Mudd, Spock losing his sight/emotional control/brain or mythological/historical figures coming to life to re-use props from Desilu's other shows.
Give me Balance of Terror, The Doomsday Machine, Arena and The Cage on one DVD and I'll skip the rest....gladly. Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
So not on Region 2 - What about 1 or 4? Do they include those interviews that they did a few years ago with each TOS episode?
Posted by F.G. (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: [QUOTE] Give me Balance of Terror, The Doomsday Machine, Arena and The Cage on one DVD and I'll skip the rest....gladly.
Surely you forgot The Trouble with Tribbles, The Ultimate Computer, Space Seed and The Enterprise Incident... Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I have TWT on video already and never really cared too much for the others. I've seen Space Seed too many times for it to hold any real appeal for me now. If Ultimate Computer had used other ship designs or even footage other than repeating the Enterprise's image over a few times.....
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Mad]](mad.gif)
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!!) all of the official literature (Encyclopedia, Chronology) uses production order. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
).![[Confused]](confused.gif)