A few months ago, a coworker came over to my place to watch some episodes of Futurama. He saw my DS9 box sets, and admitted that he'd been a fan of TNG, but had never been able to watch DS9 because of the inconsitency of its airing where he lived at the time.
So I lent him season one. Then I lent him season two. And so on. Two weeks ago, I got a frantic call from him. He'd just watched "Call to Arms" and was desperate for season six - which, he just informed me yesterday, he has now finished.
It really is amazing watching someone experience this show for the first time. At the end of every season, I ask him what he expects for the coming season. He's never been right - he expected DS9 to be retaken by the first episode of the sixth season, and as for his predictions of season seven:
Sisko communicates with the Prophets to reopen the wormhole and restore Jadzia Dax to life; the War will be over by the middle of the season and the remainder of the season will focus on Bajor's assistance in rebuilding Cardassia; Sisko will retire to live on Bajor; Damar, Weyoun, Nog, and Garak all die at some point.
Well ... he's in for quite the shocker. Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Mumble something about Kira getting killed....really, he'll cry. It'll be funny.
It's cool to hear someone's reaction to DS9. Such a leap over TNG.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Indeed - I've been praising DS9 since "Emissary" - it was my first Trek - i love TNG to pieces - but DS9 is 'it'. I'll never forget getting videos from the States of various episodes of season 3 and 4 (before the net was common place people). I would have been one of the first to have seen "The Way of the Warrior". I can still remember - not moving even in my seat for the entire two hours of "The Way of the Warrior". My arms didn't even move - except one to fastforward ads.
I remember in 1997 when I first got on the 'net how DS9 was treated and bashed so badly... I was a lone voice among millions lauding the greatness of DS9. Then all of a sudden people saw the light... well not all people. There are still LOTS who steer away from DS9 as being the rotten apple in the trek fruit salad. Quite the contrary - DS9 is the delicious cherry on the top of a trek cake.
But here i'm preaching to the converted.
If DS9 was two steps forward - Voyager was one step back (or one step forward with the other leg).
I said it in another thread (can anyone remember which one it was?) DS9 has some amazing episodes - and i stand fast by my claim that "The Visitor" is the best hour of Television ever made.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"Sisko communicates with the Prophets to reopen the wormhole and restore Jadzia Dax to life..."
Now, to be fair, we all knew about Nicole deBoer joining the cast before season seven started, so he can't really be blamed for such a prediction, since he didn't have the same information.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Wish Terry Farrel never left/got pushed out. Even though Ezri was cute - too much of season seven was lent over to introducing Ezri and giving her some sort of a storyline.
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
Ahhh . . . DS9. In a way I'm glad to have experienced the latter seasons the same way your coworker has.
I've been doing something similar with a coworker of mine. He was a Voyager fan with all seven seasons downloaded in TVrips. I got those, and he's been borrowing and watching DS9.
It's so great to show Voyager fans the light. Truly, I don't see how one can be a big Voyager fan after seeing all of DS9 . . . there is so much wasted potential in Voyager.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
What was the story on Terry Farrell leaving the show? I thought she was just ready to move on to something else. Was there more to it?
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
As far as I knew, she got a job on "Becker", knew DS9 was going to be ending after one more year, and wanted a steady paycheck ...
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Then she left Becker a year before THAT ended. Apparently got fired.
Posted by Nim the Fanciful (Member # 205) on :
AndrewR: "There are still LOTS who steer away from DS9 as being the rotten apple in the trek fruit salad. Quite the contrary - DS9 is the delicious cherry on the top of a trek cake."
That's perhaps the worst analogy I've ever heard, sir. No, seriously, I have to run to the bathroom now because I haven't gotten such an urge to shit in years. Jesus. It's like vogon poetry.
That being said, I agree with your sentiment, DS9 was special. I like Voyager too, though, it entertained the way it was supposed to, for me and my friends. Every new episode was a visit to the Trek-world, and the first minute you didn't even know what was going to happen. Mmm...
Posted by Hunter (Member # 611) on :
quote:Originally posted by Aban Rune: What was the story on Terry Farrell leaving the show? I thought she was just ready to move on to something else. Was there more to it?
The version put out there by Richard Arnold was that she asked for more money or she'd leave and was told that she wasn't worth it and that she'd be lucky to ever get another acting job again.
Make of that what you will. Given its source I'd be highly sceptical.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nim the Fanciful: AndrewR: "There are still LOTS who steer away from DS9 as being the rotten apple in the trek fruit salad. Quite the contrary - DS9 is the delicious cherry on the top of a trek cake."
That's perhaps the worst analogy I've ever heard, sir. No, seriously, I have to run to the bathroom now because I haven't gotten such an urge to shit in years. Jesus. It's like vogon poetry.
LOL! Classic
Thankyou - I must have just had fruit salad or cake when I typed that. Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Well, the DS9 run ends this week. Dan is coming over tonight, and we're going to start watching the final 10-part chapter. Probably have to finish it up later this week ... oh well! Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
quote:Wish Terry Farrel never left/got pushed out. Even though Ezri was cute - too much of season seven was lent over to introducing Ezri and giving her some sort of a storyline.
I didn't think she was cute. I thought she was annoying. And you're right, like a fourth of the episodes in the season were directly or indirectly focusing on this new person who we all knew we'd only be seeing for twenty-five episodes before the series ended. Like, who cares about this person? Jadzia was my least favorite DS9 character anyway, and Ezri was no better.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Well, Dan came over, and we watched the first five episodes of the final 10-episode arc. He's still trying to guess who dies - he thinks Gowron is going to kill Martok (directly or indirectly), is certain Kassidy is going to bite it, and is pretty sure Quark is a goner. He also predicts Ross gets killed and Sisko gets promoted to his place.
Posted by Chase Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
He is so in for a shock when he realizes it ends pretty retardedly.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
The final episode WAS pretty shite, wasn't it. It was no "Emissary" or "The Way of the Warrior".
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I dont think the end was bad at all, though I felt cheated that all the flashback shots of Dax were Ezri: that was a slap in the face of ol' Jadzia (or at least the actress that played her).
Really, It was sooooo superior to Voyager's end (but what's not?).
Posted by Ace (Member # 389) on :
Well, from what I read, Terry Farrell didn't allow them to use any footage with her in it.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
They should have had a flashback sequence to begin with - it was so poxy.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
"I dont think the end was bad at all..."
No, but it had all that buildup to this massive climax/final showdown/fate-of-the-galaxy thing and then just... sizzled out. You know?
And the flashbacks were crap. Had they done those from, say, 20 years in the future and blown up DS9 because it had become a hazard to navigation, on the other hand... B)
Posted by Hunter (Member # 611) on :
quote: And you're right, like a fourth of the episodes in the season were directly or indirectly focusing on this new person who we all knew we'd only be seeing for twenty-five episodes before the series ended.
Three epsiodes out of 26 is a fourth? Ok, there was a minor B story in "Once more unto the Breach" and more major role in some of the finale 10 but still nowhere a fourth.
quote:Like, who cares about this person?
Well if you haven't guessed already That would be me.
Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :
So what was his fav ep of DS9?
I preferred "In the pale moonlight".
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
FUTURAMA GUYS TOP FIVE* BABY! #1 "Way of the Warrior" (Need I say why?) #2 "(Improbable Cause)/The Die is Cast" (Loved the storyline, and the outcome!) #3 "In the Pale Moonlight" (Uniquely written and I'm all about Rommies!) #4 "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges" (Another good Rommie story w/ Section 31!) #5 "The Jem'Hadar" (It's what turned me onto DS9 - you never forget the first time BABY!)
*In no peculiar odor.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cartman: And the flashbacks were crap. Had they done those from, say, 20 years in the future and blown up DS9 because it had become a hazard to navigation, on the other hand... B)
Which never made much sense to me. It would surely have the same effect on space travel as a small puddle in Egypt has on Earth-type travel.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
What would have been cool is if Quark had been killed by Gowron...
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam:
quote:Originally posted by Cartman: And the flashbacks were crap. Had they done those from, say, 20 years in the future and blown up DS9 because it had become a hazard to navigation, on the other hand... B)
Which never made much sense to me. It would surely have the same effect on space travel as a small puddle in Egypt has on Earth-type travel.
Especially when you considder how slow space travel is
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Just which episodes are being included in the "shite because they were all about Ezri" category? Because at least one of her episodes (the one with the Vulcan nutter and the mini-transporter gun) was just a Dax episode, which would have worked as well with Jadzia.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Didn't it use her councling powers? Which could have been changed, granted.
Wasn't part of Farrel's complains based around the fact that, for the previous two years, there was no such thing as a "Dax" episode. They were all "Dax & Worf" episodes.
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
quote:Originally posted by Saltah'na: So what was his fav ep of DS9?
I preferred "In the pale moonlight".
"In the Pale Moonlight" in a tie with "Far Beyond the Stars".
The first one I got to watch "live" (on cable at my cousin's house, not some videotape) was "Civil Defense".
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: Didn't it use her councling powers? Which could have been changed, granted.
Wasn't part of Farrel's complains based around the fact that, for the previous two years, there was no such thing as a "Dax" episode. They were all "Dax & Worf" episodes.
Boo Hoo: she certainly had enough "all Dax" episodes prior to the relationship with Worf thing. Not all great either.
It's a silly complaint: imagine Avery Brooks bitching because great episodes centered on Sisko and Dukat.
One makes the other far more intresting. God knows I never wanted to see Worf outside the TNG cast when their series ended but his character actually became cool on DS9.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: Didn't it use her councling powers? Which could have been changed, granted.
Wasn't part of Farrel's complains based around the fact that, for the previous two years, there was no such thing as a "Dax" episode. They were all "Dax & Worf" episodes.
Something like that - and the we GET a 'Dax-only' story with the sniper-Vulcan.
Also - that there was NO backstory given to Jadzia (i.e. not Dax) - we heard her mention her mother ONCE - that was it. Then we get an Ezri story and she goes back home!
Posted by Hunter (Member # 611) on :
Not quite true, Jadzia mentions a sister in "Bar Association" and we find out that she flunked out from the Symbiosis comission in "Equilbrim"
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Then the whole exlover lezzy kiss ep, and the one where the rest of the crew get to 'be' her former hosts...and "Meridian" was another Dax focused ep.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Yes, but those are about Dax, not Jadzia as Andrew said.
Which never made much sense to me. It would surely have the same effect on space travel as a small puddle in Egypt has on Earth-type travel.
Well, the thing WAS right in the path of the jump gate, ala "Soul Hunter". Which was completely idiotic. But anyway.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omega: Well, the thing WAS right in the path of the jump gate, ala "Soul Hunter". Which was completely idiotic. But anyway.
The could have moved the Jump Gate - plus what else besides the Great Machine is in the Epsilon System? They/he could have given it a more grand reason as to it's destruction. I.e. a problem had developed in it's core - that was unfixable - so instead of leaving it derilict for squatters which mich end up getting killed when the core went critical - destroy it now - for everyone's safety.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
*shrug* The whole point was that Babylon 5's destruction was ironic, for lack of a better word. From various events in season one including the prophetess in Signs and Portents, you were supposed to get the idea that Babylon 5 would be destroyed in some great battle or last stand.
Instead, Babylon 5's success paved the way for its eventual destruction. Giving a grand reason for its destruction would have ruined the whole point.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omega: Yes, but those are about Dax, not Jadzia as Andrew said.
I beg to differ: the episode with the crew taking on the personalities of prior hosts was all about Jadiza. Her fears and what drove her to re-apply for joining.
Besides, we learned only snippetts about Sisko before he changed over to the command track or really anything of substance about O'Brien's family (besides a brief line about his father getting remarried.) We never see even a picture on the wall of the crew's families.
Must be that darn Cardassian alloy. Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
wouldn't they have small holos instead of pictures, like Data's Yar?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Worf had a standard photo of Alexander in his belongings in WOTW.
I was just watching the (awful) episode with Riva and his "chorus" and Picard used a small holo (CGI) to show Riker the system's erratic planetary orbits. It's odd that while such SFX was present in the first few seasons, it dwindled to the use of display screens by TNG's end.
You'd think with the holo-nonsense on Voyager they could've spiced up the briefings with holography.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mucus: *shrug* The whole point was that Babylon 5's destruction was ironic, for lack of a better word. From various events in season one including the prophetess in Signs and Portents, you were supposed to get the idea that Babylon 5 would be destroyed in some great battle or last stand.
Instead, Babylon 5's success paved the way for its eventual destruction. Giving a grand reason for its destruction would have ruined the whole point.
A core-malfunction is hardly a 'grand' reason - just makes more sense than 'traffic obstruction'.
And wasn't the timeline to the destruction of B5 in a great battle or stand the future that would have occured if the events in "War Without End" didn't come to fruition.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Babylon 5 sucked ass after the Shadows turned out to be such whiney pussies. And people talk about DS9's war ending with a fizzle. Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon:
quote:Originally posted by Omega: Yes, but those are about Dax, not Jadzia as Andrew said.
I beg to differ: the episode with the crew taking on the personalities of prior hosts was all about Jadiza. Her fears and what drove her to re-apply for joining.
"Facets" was great - but that, season 1's "Dax", "Blood Oath" and "Equilibrium" were the only other real 'Jadzia Dax' episodes. OK What I (and I guess Terry) mean is that there was no more added to the Dax character after "Facets" - there were so many avenues to go from after that episode.
Everything after with Jadzia: "Looking for Par'Mach in All the Wrong Places", "You Are Cordially Invited" etc. were all about her courtship with Worf.
Then Along comes Ezri and we have like 3 or four episodes that revolve around her. She probably should have remained a 'supporting cast member' and not a full blown cast member.
Besides, we learned only snippetts about Sisko before he changed over to the command track or really anything of substance about O'Brien's family (besides a brief line about his father getting remarried.) We never see even a picture on the wall of the crew's families.
Must be that darn Cardassian alloy.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Holy crap: I dont recall typing half of that. Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"It's odd that while such SFX was present in the first few seasons, it dwindled to the use of display screens by TNG's end."
It probably took more time, money, and effort. In the early seasons, they say "wow, look at this neat effect we can show off so everyone can see how far ahead of TOS this is". Later on, though, it just wouldn't be worth it.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
And wasn't the timeline to the destruction of B5 in a great battle or stand the future that would have occured if the events in "War Without End" didn't come to fruition.
Yes.
Babylon 5 sucked ass after the Shadows turned out to be such whiney pussies. And people talk about DS9's war ending with a fizzle.
*sigh*
The nature of B5's V-S conflict was different from that of DS9's F-D one. Thus it had to end differently. Duh.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
quote:Originally posted by TSN: It probably took more time, money, and effort. In the early seasons, they say "wow, look at this neat effect we can show off so everyone can see how far ahead of TOS this is". Later on, though, it just wouldn't be worth it.
Bingo. We got holographics all over the place in the first and some of the second season. Yar's funeral message, Data's portrait of her, the odd planetary orbit diagram already mentioned, the girls playing music for Riker (in the one with the Bynars, IIRC). I think there was another one that I'm not remembering too. They wanted to give the impression that this was a magical ship that could do anything.
Too bad they couldn't make Wesley's tractor beam effect not suck.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by TSN:
"It's odd that while such SFX was present in the first few seasons, it dwindled to the use of display screens by TNG's end."
It probably took more time, money, and effort. In the early seasons, they say "wow, look at this neat effect we can show off so everyone can see how far ahead of TOS this is". Later on, though, it just wouldn't be worth it.
Of course, but in critical briefings (such as tyhe re-taking of Ds9) they could've splurged at least a little.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon:
quote:Originally posted by TSN:
"It's odd that while such SFX was present in the first few seasons, it dwindled to the use of display screens by TNG's end."
It probably took more time, money, and effort. In the early seasons, they say "wow, look at this neat effect we can show off so everyone can see how far ahead of TOS this is". Later on, though, it just wouldn't be worth it.
Of course, but in critical briefings (such as the re-taking of DS9) they could've splurged at least a little.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cartman: And wasn't the timeline to the destruction of B5 in a great battle or stand the future that would have occured if the events in "War Without End" didn't come to fruition.
Yes.
Babylon 5 sucked ass after the Shadows turned out to be such whiney pussies. And people talk about DS9's war ending with a fizzle.
*sigh*
The nature of B5's V-S conflict was different from that of DS9's F-D one. Thus it had to end differently. Duh.
I'm not starting a "B5 Vs Ds9" debate (as I think they share little in common aside from a space station and ongoing story arc). It's not the way the war ended so much that irks me but rather that we saw these wonderful, complex aliens with their own strange motivations and mystery and in one episode they're reduced to scared children not wanting "to be left all alone".
I think JMS wrote himself into a corner and made Lorien as a Dues Ex Machina to wrap up the storyline. Very disapointing for me.
Man, I loved the Shadows until that one moment.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I really wish I would've watched B5.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Yeah nothing really in the Vorlon or Shadow background alluded to them being 'scared children'. Lorien was definately a Deus Ex Machina to deal with the 'god-like' Shadows and Vorlons. I guess he didn't want to go the 'all out war' route - but there were other ways of dealing with it. That's where DS9's war worked - they tied in well established continuity etc to deal with their 'major threat' Odo, Dr. Bashir/O'Brien/Section 31/Science and Kira/Cardassians fighting the good-fight. I also guess they had to pay for their own use of a Deus Ex Machina in "Sacrifice of Angels" with Sisko's punishment. I loved the parting shot of DS9 - not because of the effects - but because it also was a nice continuity point of Kira consoling Jake on the loss of Sisko - which harkened back to a similar shot in "The Visitor".
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
That's better. B)
And I see where you're coming from. That "get the hell out of our galaxy" speech had to be one of the most cringe-inducing moments in the history of SF television. But still. It wasn't a DEM, just a sucky resolution (two billion-year old races feeling lonely, OK JMS). At least the IDEA was new. DS9's ending, though, sucked because it WASN'T new at all. To me. Just a very conventional wrapup (minus the Sisko/Dukat Christ/AntiChrist thing). Anyway.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"I also guess they had to pay for their own use of a Deus Ex Machina in 'Sacrifice of Angels' with Sisko's punishment."
If you're looking for a deus ex machina in the DS9 war arc, how about the bit where the Dominion was sending a fleet through the wormhole that would have essentially obliterated the Federation, and the Prophets just sort of blinked them out of existence?
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Well, that's okay if you go by the "there will be a price" thing. Which we assume is Jadzia's death.
Of course, that death would have been more poingant if Dax hadn't come back less than two episodes later.
And as for people listing Dax episodes, I notice that none of them are from season 5 onwards. Which kind of proves her point.
(B5 was hurt by the whole "we don't know if we're getting a fifth season thing". It made season 4 horrible crushed. The war with the Shadows essentially starts with "Shadow Dancing", and it's over 7 episodes later. That's rather rushed. Thank god the Earth stuff came across as "fast and panic-ey and exciting", rather than "rast and rushed and crap".)
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by TSN:
"I also guess they had to pay for their own use of a Deus Ex Machina in 'Sacrifice of Angels' with Sisko's punishment."
If you're looking for a deus ex machina in the DS9 war arc, how about the bit where the Dominion was sending a fleet through the wormhole that would have essentially obliterated the Federation, and the Prophets just sort of blinked them out of existence?
Yes - that's what I was talking about - "The Sacrifice of Angels" DS9 season 6.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: Well, that's okay if you go by the "there will be a price" thing. Which we assume is Jadzia's death.
Actually - I didn't realise - but yeah that's ANOTHER price that Sisko had to pay. Jadzia dying. I was thinking - and I think the show alluded to it more that Sisko's penance was him being removed from the universe
1. From his Son 2. From Bajor his work with the Bajorans and his position as Captain on DS9 3. From his wife 4. From seeing his 2nd child being born and growing up.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I agree with Andrew here: Sisko wanted to build a life on Bajor and the Prophets denied him that as pennance.
Jadzia getting killed was just Dukat-A-Mojin doing his thing....though if Sisko had just listened to the Prophet's warning not to go, he might have stopped him.
mabye.
That brings to mind another thing missing on B5 after the Shadow WAr: there was really no one villan to like or despise....no one really stood out after they behesded Mr. Morden.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"Yes - that's what I was talking about - 'The Sacrifice of Angels' DS9 season 6."
Okay, I see what you meant. When they told him about the punishment. I'd been thinking you meant the punishment itself.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Does it count as Deus Ex Machina if there is some sort of counter balance? I suppose, technically, it is, but I always take the stereotypically bad DEM to be "oh, everything's been fixed, carry on with no repurcussions".
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
I agree with Liam. It's okay to fix things magically, but only if you pay for it. Sheridan and Spock returning from the dead being the best examples that come to mind.
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
B5 wasn't about one bad guy, it was about the overall struggle of good vs evil, light vs dark, etc
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
"Light vs dark" should be banned from ever appearing on television from now until the rest of time. Honestly, even turning on a light is pushing things.
And the whole point of the Shadows/Vorlon thing was that it WASN'T good/evil or light/dark or butter/marmalade...it was about parents not letting their children grow up. And maybe, at a push, chaos/control. But the parent thing. Boo.
Posted by Chase Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
Speaking of light, dude, did we like ever find out who gave Gary Hobson the newspaper a day early? And did like, did they off Chuck?
That dude totally had like the newspaper a day early. He could totally ask to buy things from the classifieds way before the dude even like was going to sell it.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: Does it count as Deus Ex Machina if there is some sort of counter balance? I suppose, technically, it is, but I always take the stereotypically bad DEM to be "oh, everything's been fixed, carry on with no repurcussions".
aka reset button - aka Star Trek: Voyager?
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: And the whole point of the Shadows/Vorlon thing was that it WASN'T good/evil or light/dark or butter/marmalade...it was about parents not letting their children grow up. And maybe, at a push, chaos/control.
No, the KAOS/CONTROL thing was much, much funnier. Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"Speaking of light, dude, did we like ever find out who gave Gary Hobson the newspaper a day early?"
Probably Captain Braxton, when he wasn't busy coordinating Sam Becket's time leaps or planting invisible bombs.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by machf:
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: And the whole point of the Shadows/Vorlon thing was that it WASN'T good/evil or light/dark or butter/marmalade...it was about parents not letting their children grow up. And maybe, at a push, chaos/control.
No, the KAOS/CONTROL thing was much, much funnier.
Yeah, he missed a bad pun....by that much.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omega: I agree with Liam. It's okay to fix things magically, but only if you pay for it. Sheridan and Spock returning from the dead being the best examples that come to mind.
Pay for it? Sheridan beats the Vorlons/Shadows/Earthgov/Soul Suckas/Third Space aliens/Drakh (probably) and became president of the Federation (you know it's the same damn thing). So I think he could've "paid for it" either a lot more or a lot sooner.
Spock got his brain scrambled a bit for two whole movies before he was his old self....and then lived to a ripe old age of forever. He paid for squat. If you mean David's death, that's silly. David paid for his botching the Genesis project (I wonder if Kirk ever bothered to tell carol?). Biiiiig deal.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"So I think he could've 'paid for it' either a lot more or a lot sooner."
Well, he had his lifespan shortened by probably thrity years or so (or more; I'm not sure how long humans generally live in the B5 future). Plus he had to live the rest of his life knowing just how long he had left. I mean, sure, maybe he could've died immediately, or been forced to watch Delenn be blown up in slow motion, or something. But he still didn't get off scot-free.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
He got off a lot cheaper than Marcus did though. Or Sheridan's lobotomized wife. Or Londo the puppett. Or poor beheaded Mr, Morden for that matter.
He really should'nt bitch: he was saved by bullshit luck on at least five or six occasions after he *somehow* escaped a nuclear blast and a fall through (again- they never even attempted to explain) the Shadow's planet.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Wildly off topic, but, uh, having a crazy old transcendent lifeform at the bottom of the well who's willing to save you provided you listen to some dime-store musings on the nature of time doesn't count as an explanation?
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"Or poor beheaded Mr, Morden for that matter."
Okay, but, he was a bit of an asshole, so he kinda had it coming.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
And Marcus didn't "pay" for anything. He just sacrificed himself so that his One True Love™ might live. It was Ivanova who payed for not trusting him sooner.
Londo, however, payed for involving himself with the Shadows by having a bug placed on his shoulder by their lackies and living the last 15 years of his life as a marionette, even though he had redeemed himself for all of it. He was the show's tragic figure for a reason, you know.
Morden payed for being the Shadows' bitch by having his head adorn a Centauri palace garden. Boo.
Anna, finally, payed for refusing to serve the Shadows by having her brain rewired for use in a Shadow Battlecrab and then dying horribly in an explosion set off by none other than her former hubbie.
So I don't know if Sheridan got off as lightly as everyone thinks. I mean, he wasn't evil, he wasn't an asshole, he had no comeuppance due from anyone, he was just an all-around nice guy who was in the wrong place at the wrong time and had his lifespan cut in half for it. That's not cheap in my book.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Not cheap no....but how many times over would he-or anyone- have sacrificed their whole life to pull off some of the stunts he managed?
His planting (completely solo!) a nuke inside the thirdspace alien ship's interior and (somehow) outrunning the blast's area of effect was implusable enough, but when Ivovonna calls him on the suit's radio, he's not even breathing hard!
Mabye Lorien did a little "Rewiring" of his own on ol' Johnnie. Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Spock got his brain scrambled a bit for two whole movies before he was his old self....and then lived to a ripe old age of forever. He paid for squat.
No, but Kirk and company went into it fully expecting to lose their careers, at the very least. As of the end of TSFS, they got Spock back, but they very much paid for it. TVH is what reset the status quo.
And Thirdspace pisses me off in general. How many different alien species do we really need that come swarming out of a giant hole in space with bad attitudes, no interest in talking, absurdly advanced tech, and the sole motivation of "KILL EVERYONE" in big glowing neon letters? Thirdspace, Shivans, 8472, Nephilim, Derrivas... DO SOMETHING INTERESTING, PEOPLE!
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
Chaos vs control is the battle to control the forces of light vs dark. The shadows lost all of their sensibility and turned dark while focusing on chaos. The vorlons did the same [though probably a little later than the shadows]. Both turned dark/evil because they lost their balance between chaos and control.
The reason that the younger races [predominantly Humans and Mimbari] became dominate was because they learned to balance chaos and control, while the Vorlons and Shadows [their guardians] had lost it. Because of this, upon Lorien telling them, they realized that their balance had been lost and they were no longer needed to guide the younger races in achieving balance.
So simple... after that chaos and control's balance was the tool of the Alliance to defeat the Drakh.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
Not to mention The Hand, who- or whatever THEY were...
I swear, if JMS doesn't have a big secret fetish for Lovecraft, I'll eat my keyboard.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Isn't the generally accepted idea of "what B5 would have been like if Sinclair had stayed and JMS is a big fat lair regarding this" that the series would have ended with Sinclair going to the past for the final episode (probably in an episode that took bits from "Sleeping in Light" and "War Without End")? If so, he would have "payed" for things even less than Sheridan did, since he wouldn't have died.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: If you mean David's death, that's silly. David paid for his botching the Genesis project (I wonder if Kirk ever bothered to tell carol?). Biiiiig deal.
It wasn't Spock that payed for coming back to life though, it was Kirk. Spock didn't (thematically) have to pay for anything, since it wasn't his choice. It was Kirk who decided to go and get him back, and therefore Kirk had to be the one to get "punished" for his essentially selfish action. David got punished for messing around with protomatter, but Kirk got punished by having his son killed.
As for Sheridan, it strikes me that Delenn is really the one who suffers in that. She spends her life falling and being in love with a man who is going to die in 20 years, when she's likely to live (and does live) for a good other 100 years. While everyone else at the end of Sleeping In Light is better off, she's worse off. She never gets over Sheridan's death, and spends the second half of her life grieving. That can't be good.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
I suppose if you REALLY wanted to stretch it, you could say she saved him by being the one thing he had worth living for, but had to pay for it. But that's stretching it.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
The whole "Moses barred from entering the Promised Land" kind of ending does seem to be popular, doesn't it? Sheridan, Sisko, Sam Beckett. . . And come to think of it, why couldn't Moses enter Israel anyway?
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Didn't have the right passport.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"And come to think of it, why couldn't Moses enter Israel anyway?"
Have you ever read any of the Old Testament? Job, for instance? Yahweh was a hardcore motherfucker.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
The closest I come to the Old Testament is when I'm having sex in a hotel room.
Posted by Chase Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
ZING WOWEE!
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lee: The whole "Moses barred from entering the Promised Land" kind of ending does seem to be popular, doesn't it? Sheridan, Sisko, Sam Beckett. . . And come to think of it, why couldn't Moses enter Israel anyway?
Tom Ridge had him on a watch-list.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
It isn't just David's death that may be looked on as "payment" for Spock's resurrection, it's also the destruction of the Enterprise. Remember, that ship was Kirk's one true love, and he sacrificed first his future command of her and ultimately the the old girl herself for his friend.
-MMoM Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Actually, his disobeying orders and stealing the ship allowed him to both command the original one last time and get command (just a short time later for him) of another- new version- of his old Enterprise.
My point was that Spock did not pay for being returned to life.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
He lost all memories of his friends, though.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Not knowing the meaning of "rhetorical": Moses was held back from Canaan for striking a rock (which then split open and became a spring) rather than simply waving his staff over it as he was instructed.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
God's a stickler for instructions. Pretty anal of him.
I dont even look at instructions on electronics or model kits. Think that'll count against me?
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Well, when some guy touched the Ark of the Covenant (accidentally, I seem to recall), Yahweh killed his ass with a lightning bolt. So, yeah, you may be in trouble.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Oy! Again with the Nazis....
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Not knowing the meaning of "rhetorical": Moses was held back from Canaan for striking a rock (which then split open and became a spring) rather than simply waving his staff over it as he was instructed.
He was instructed to talk to the rock, and instead struck it twice. It's also arguable that the actual problem with what he did was telling the people, "You keep whining! Must _I_ now bring forth water from this rock?" or words to that effect. Claiming credit == bad.
As for the guy touching the ark to keep it from falling, they were transporting the ark in an unacceptable manner in the first place, from what I recall.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Moses herad voices that told him to talk to rocks. Rocks. So Moses hit the rock twice and queered the deal for the promised land.
There was no promised land for Moses or his followers because he and they were crazy as fuck.
Man, the middle-East sure brews some zealotry.
NOW comes the lightning, I should think. Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
Now comes the whole fucking biblical armageddon. B)
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Actually, his disobeying orders and stealing the ship allowed him to both command the original one last time and get command (just a short time later for him) of another- new version- of his old Enterprise.
My point was that Spock did not pay for being returned to life.
But Spock didn't ask for this to happen. Kirk and co. did it, for him and for McCoy.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
It's still silly nad with almost zero reprecusions for the main cast: there would have been no place for David's character in future movies anyway.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Specifically, the zapped in question was reaching out to steady the Ark after the cart it was on hit a bump. (Demonstrating, so the story intends us to understand, a lack of faith in the ability of God to handle his own affairs.)
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim: It isn't just David's death that may be looked on as "payment" for Spock's resurrection, it's also the destruction of the Enterprise. Remember, that ship was Kirk's one true love, and he sacrificed first his future command of her and ultimately the the old girl herself for his friend.
-MMoM
Or...
Spock sacrificed himself to save the Enterprise and its crew. Kirk sacrificed his career to recover Spock. Kirks son sacrificed himself to save Spock. Kirk sacrificed the Enterprise to save his crew.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
So three of four possible sacrifices are just bullshit two movies later.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: Specifically, the zapped in question was reaching out to steady the Ark after the cart it was on hit a bump. (Demonstrating, so the story intends us to understand, a lack of faith in the ability of God to handle his own affairs.)
So God wont take a helping hand for his box of rocks from the faithful?
Add "control freak" to his list of neurosis.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: It's still silly nad with almost zero reprecusions for the main cast: there would have been no place for David's character in future movies anyway.
Yes, but in the context of this universe, Kirk didn't lose a "potentially recurring character. He lost his son. And that did have repurcussions in STVI.
David's death and the Enterprise's destruction were punishment for what he did. The Enterprise-A was reward for the crew selflessly risking their own lives to save Earth. It's a seperate thing, really.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"Specifically, the zapped in question was reaching out to steady the Ark after the cart it was on hit a bump. (Demonstrating, so the story intends us to understand, a lack of faith in the ability of God to handle his own affairs.)"
So, doesn't that pretty well negate a lot of the laws set down in the same texts? I mean, surely Yahweh could find his own animals to slaughter, burn, and sniff at, rather than needing people to sacrifice them.
Also, if the guy had let the ark fall over, Yahweh probably would have zapped them all for allowing his precious box get jostled. So he was probably screwed from the start.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Well, the Ark wasn't supposed to be carried on cart at all, so yeah.
Posted by Elim Garak (Member # 14) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: Specifically, the zapped in question was reaching out to steady the Ark after the cart it was on hit a bump. (Demonstrating, so the story intends us to understand, a lack of faith in the ability of God to handle his own affairs.)
I’m rather more inclined to think that it demonstrates that Judaism and Christianity are religions, with an aspect of numen and not reason alone; and that humanity plays a central part in that divine approach, dangerous as it may be. cf. Rudolf Otto, Das Heilige (tr. The Idea of the Holy) - a good book
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
"I mean, surely Yahweh could find his own animals to slaughter, burn, and sniff at..."
Well, surely he could also have carried the fucking thing himself if he was that twitchy about it and didn't want people doubting his ability to handle his own affairs. But I guess zapping his underlings just for kicks was a bigger incentive for them to bolster their faith in the guy.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I'm inclined to think that Judiasm and Christianity are not related religions at all but rather Christianity took a few ideas and names from the old popular text (and many folloowers in the process) but is not the same idea at all.
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
You're forgetting the whole Messiah stuff from the OT. The two are related in that Christians believe the fulfillment of Jewish beliefs is in Jesus Christ. Not all Jews accepted this then, nor do they now. The differences you see have many reasons. For one, Jews no longer have the temple, it was destroyed in 70AD and without it they can't perform many of their beliefs. Secondly, accepting that Jesus is the Messiah changes things. The biggest instance, the Messiah as predicted in the OT was meant to be an end all sacrafice, one for all instances for all time. So in the end if you believed that, it would be stupid to continue the other sacrafices because the Messiah's sacrafice made them unnecessary. You don't pay for something twice, you don't sacrafice for something twice.
There's a lot more to it than that, but your inclination is way off. Most reasonable secular research would come to the same conclusion that Christianity is essentially a sect of Judaism.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
For one, Jews no longer have the temple, it was destroyed in 70AD and without it they can't perform many of their beliefs.
The funny thing being that God never ordered the building of the Temple in the first place, it was apparently David's idea.
Most reasonable secular research would come to the same conclusion that Christianity is essentially a sect of Judaism.
"Essentially"? "Technically", perhaps, but there are massive qualitative differences between the two.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
Not nearly as big a difference as say either of them compared to any truly different religious systems such as Bhuddism, Taoism, Scientology, or native American beliefs.
In fact, given that perspective one would be most inclined to replace the phrase "massive qualitative differences" with "minor qualitative differences."
Posted by JC Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
At what point did Scientology splinter off?
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
Probably right around the time L. Ron Hubbard decided he wanted to be head of a religion.
Posted by JC Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
John Travolta's career died so that we may live.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
The way I see it, Christianity is to Judaism what Protestantism and Reformationism are to Roman Catholicism. Only, on a signifcantly larger scale.
Posted by JC Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
God !! Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Yes, this is a bit off topic.
(I don't have a copy handy anymore, but the Temple is built under divine instruction, I thought? And, in fact, there are two slightly different versions of the story of its construction. ((In the first, David lays the groundwork for his son, Solomon. In the second, David intends to build the whole thing but is stopped by God.)) Also, the whole Messiah thing is, to be charitable, open to interpretation in the Hebrew Bible. Though, OK, I am far from a Biblical scholar. ((Though it obviously is open to interpretation, if only because the Jewish world didn't convert en masse to Christianity.)) This should maybe be spun off to the Flameboard.)
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
IIRC, David *wanted* to build the Temple, but God told him that his son, Solomon, would do it. Instead of pushing forward in his efforts, David humbly followed that instruction and gathered materials for the building work. Lumber, money, etc., even donating much from his personal wealth. He didn't lay the foundation though. He just prepared for the project.
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
Yes, it was David that prepared the building of the temple but he wasn't permitted to build it because he was a man of war. And it was also built under divine instruction. See 2nd Sam 7 for most of that reference... but then there is also the tabernacle which was before the temple.
And you're also twisting what I said about Christianity being Judaism. Christians consider themselves Jews, whether by birth [they were descendents of Jacob/Israel] or adoption [they were originally Gentiles]. There are major differences between first century Judaism and modern day Judaism, but I haven't the time to go through them. For the major part, first century Jews used animal sacrafice to cover sins and make them spiritally clean before God [goes back to sin's payment is death, so something has to die]. Messiah's role in Judaism was to bring a perfect sacrafice, make it to where animal sacrafice were no longer necessary because one perfect all atoning sacrafice had been made. Christians believe that it was Messiah/Jesus himself who is the sacrafice, Jews [both those who didn't believe in the 1st century and modern day] do not believe that. At the same time, in the 1st century it was also widely believed that Messiah would return Israel's earthly kingdom, in short throw off Roman rule... many Christians believed that in the beginning too, and Jesus' corrected it. Even today, Jews believe that Messiah will return Israel to it's former glory. The two religions are connected by that, but separated by it also.
So anyway, what were we talking about?
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Deep Space Nine.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :
So... has he gotten to the end of DS9?
One of my favorites for the series was "In the Pale Moonlight". Sure all the starship battle scenes were fun to watch, but what I liked about that episode was the direction it took Sisko and what he was willing to do to end the war.
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
I'm thinking one of the best episodes of DS9, and even Trek, is the Visitor. What does he think?
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :
"I lied. I cheated. I bribed men to cover the crimes of other men. I am an accessory to murder. But the most damning thing of all, I think I can live with it. And if I had it all over to due it again, I would. Mr. Garak was right about one thing; a guilty conscious is a small price to pay for the safety of the alpha quadrant. So I will learn to live with it, because I can live with it. I can live with it."-- Sisko In the Pale Moonlight
I ran out of time to edit that in.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
"Computer...delete that entire log entry."
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
A damn good episode that one was... Also remember Quark's line from earlier in the episode, something like:
"Thank you, captain. You've restored my faith in Rule of Acquisition #98: 'Every man has his price'."
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
"It's a faaaaaaaaake!
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
"The Klingons were going to execute me tomorrow!...of course they say that every day."
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
"You may notice a certain acerbic attitude from the romulans..."
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
"I've left him in his room with the distinct impression that the door will explode if he tries to leave." (or something similar in which Garak proves once again that he's the man)
Posted by Elim Garak (Member # 14) on :
"I hope that's just an impression!" "It's best not to dwell on such minutiae."
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
"What the fuck are these people quoting?"
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
"In The Pale Moonlight"
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Harry: "What the fuck are these people quoting?"
MacBeth- Senator Vreenak is Banquo and Garak is Lennox.
Or not.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by Harry: "What the fuck are these people quoting?"
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