Heheh, I saw "Samaritan Snare" the other night and Wesley said to Picard that the Klingons joined the Federation. He didn't correct him? Anyone care to comment?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Comment the first: your title and content do not seem to be on speaking terms, as it were.
Comment the second: From the same history book McCoy read when he told Spock "No wonder you [Vulcanians] were conquered."
(Comment the third: thrill to backstory being created in real time!)
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Well the title was just - for fun!
the 'conquered' line - maybe he was mentioning something like the Vulcan civil war and devestation that it brought to Vulcan?
third comment: what the!?!
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Vulcans were conquored: someone went back in time and inserted explosives in their foreheads: if they get out of line...BLAMMO!
Same with the Romulans and Klingons: that's why they're so bitchy. They have a quater stick of C-4 in their skulls.
The future is ruled by the Tholians with their squeaky voices and their Radio Shack- built detonators.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
There really isn't any context for McCoy's statement. It's just a jab he delivers in an early episode, back before the backstory was nailed down, hence comment three.
I suppose one could always try to dig up the earliest production notes and see what the deal was. I've wondered if it wasn't an attempt to make the "Wagon Train to the stars" concept more literal, with Vulcans in the role of the Indians.
If we want to rationalize I guess it could refer to any war in Vulcan's history where the Vulcans didn't necessarily win. I'm sure the good doctor wouldn't let facts get in the way of a good one-liner.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: The future is ruled by the Tholians with their squeaky voices and their Radio Shack- built detonators.
Ohh, can't wait to see/hear Tholians again - that episode from season 2 - "Cold Front"? The Tholians were uber-eerie with their crackling, distorted, twisted voices.
Also the problem with Wesley's comment - it was towards the end of SEASON 2!!
What was there before that? The Voyage Home and possibly at that time The Final Frontier - there was no "Undiscovered Country" etc to give the impression that Klingons had joined the Federation - was that their idea from "Farpoint" - with Worf on the bridge? Didn't we get an interspecies exchange mention in season 2 though? And I always thought that they wrote Worf from "Farpoint" as if he was a Klingon but a Federation Citizen - like he's always been written.
Maybe Wesley meant to say "when that KLINGON joined the Federation *spit*!"
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
My guess is that Wesley, while freaking brilliant with a warp field, is a bit of an idiot when it comes to politics.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
And Picard? He doesn't correct him, he says 'yes'. Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
Comments about this from Ex Astris Scientia:
quote:Klingons in the Federation? While they are en route to Starbase 515 in TNG: "Samaritan Snare", Picard is talking of his early days in Starfleet and the incident with the Nausicaans, when Wesley poses a surprising question: "Was that before the Klingons joined the Federation?" Picard confirms that. So are the Klingons members of the Federation at the time of the episode (2365) and had already been for some time? A view of the bridge of a Klingon ship from TNG: "Heart of Glory" seems to corroborate just that. Here we see the Federation emblem along with the Klingon emblem. It is not something electronically inserted into the image, but the two logos are obviously openly displayed on the Klingon vessel. Why would the Klingons do that if they were not members of the Federation?
On the other hand, there is overwhelming evidence that the Klingons were definitely no Federation members at the time of TNG and DS9. Episodes like TNG: "A Matter of Honor", "Reunion" and "Redemption" made it very clear that the Federation and Klingons were just allies, if at all. The Federation or Starfleet had no business in the Klingon Empire. In DS9: "The Way of the Warrior" the Klingons even fought against the Federation (before officially declaring war in DS9: "Broken Link"). Sisko said that the Klingons had not only called back their ambassador, but that they had even retreated from the Khitomer Accords, their mutual peace treaty. Logically the Klingons would have had to leave the Federation first before going that far. It seems very unlikely that their membership had ended soon after "Samaritan Snare" because this would have definitely been a major issue in the Klingon arc of TNG.
When TNG was first conceived it may have actually been the intention that there was more than just an alliance between the two galactic superpowers. In Roddenberry's eyes such a development would have been a quite palpable progress in the spirit of Star Trek. But with writers being fond of Klingons as mostly unpredictable, often mysterious and sometimes villainous alien allies, this idea was silently dropped and leaves us just with the two pieces of evidence from early TNG. We may suppose that the Klingon commander in TNG: "Heart of Glory" demonstratively showed the Federation emblem to gain an advantage just because the two powers were only loose allies. Wesley's remark and Picard's confirmation about a Klingon membership in the Federation is something we should rather overlook. Unless we found a way to re-interpret "joined the Federation" as just "became friends with the Federation".�
And comments concerning Vulcan's "conquest"
quote:The conquest of Vulcan There are two contradictory statements about Vulcan history according to which Vulcan may have either once been conquered or never been conquered. The following is taken from TOS: "The Conscience of the King":
Dr. McCoy: "Would you care for a drink, Mr. Spock?" Spock: "My father's race was spared the dubious benefits of alcohol." Dr. McCoy: "Oh. Now I know why they were conquered."
In TOS: "The Immunity Syndrome", on the other hand, this conversation takes place:
Spock: "Their [the Intrepid's Vulcan crew's] logic would not have permitted them to believe they were being killed." Kirk: "Explain." Spock: "Vulcan has not been conquered within its collective memory. The memory goes back so far that no Vulcan can conceive of a conqueror."
As with nearly all statements about historical events, we need to take them with a grain of salt. There are always different perspectives. Fortunately the fact that two different persons made contradictory statements facilitates the issue a bit. Whilst Spock may have indeed referred to an occupation of Vulcan with military violence like it has never taken place, McCoy may have meant the "conquest" of Vulcan after the planet has joined the Federation. On the other hand, there was practically no one and nothing alien on Vulcan in TOS: "Amok Time" or "Star Trek VI". Anyway, while Spock's statement is so definite that it doesn't allow a different interpretation, it should be taken seriously, unless we pretend that Spock was lying, for which there would have been absolutely no reason. If anything, then McCoy's casual remark may not have been what it seems.
Perhaps the Klingons had joined the Federation and left it at some point in the past, not recently, but some decades ago. Maybe they just didn't liek the color scheme or something. Wesley's statement about something happening before they joined could thus be true. He just didn't mention the part about them leaving a year later.
Posted by Vice-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
I'd say the Klingons joined the Federation in friendship... that's it. Wesley also needs to grow out and dye his hair blonde and start injecting himself with female hormones.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: And Picard? He doesn't correct him, he says 'yes'.
Part of Picard's plan to let Worf kill the boy, thus leaving his hands lilly-white.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: Heheh, I saw "Samaritan Snare" the other night and Wesley said to Picard that the Klingons joined the Federation. He didn't correct him? Anyone care to comment?
Looks like a RERUN to me. I think I even had pictures posted at one time to go with it.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
Well, it's forbidden to resurrect old topics like that, so what other option is there but to rerun?
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
You could slap yourself for thinking that there is a difference between resurrecting an old thread and making a new thread about old topics.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
There's also the option of just not, for no reason, stating something that's already been stated, but not adding anything new to it.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
An even more radical thought would be to have the thread's topic and content match in any way...
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
But why break with Flare tradition?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
No no: tradition is for the initial post to be relavant to the thread's title and then we all jump off into uncharted territory.
Posted by Footrama Goo (Member # 968) on :
Too many pennies on the train track....
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
The topic MAY have some relevance - it mentions Wesley - and you all know he has a penchant for black leather suits.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
That also usually happens when the initial post is by some newb looking for reference photos before he mysteriously vanishes into the ether from whence he came. Those are always an opportunity to practice creative topic generation.
Posted by Curzon Dax (Member # 1481) on :
Oh yea! He'd be just as scary as Walter Koeing in Bab 5.
:{)
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: The topic MAY have some relevance - it mentions Wesley - and you all know he has a penchant for black leather suits.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
It's scary that Koeing gets work at all. I mean, did you seeMoontrap?
Posted by Grand Master General Futurama God (Member # 968) on :
I dunno, without the Russian accent, the man sounds like he took one too many shots in the tator tots by Galliulin.
Posted by Curzon Dax (Member # 1481) on :
Unfortunatly. And to tell you the truth, I think I even paid, as in a video rental, to see it.
:{)
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: It's scary that Koeing gets work at all. I mean, did you seeMoontrap?
Posted by Curzon Dax (Member # 1481) on :
Actually, both of them would be as scary as Dougie Howser playing the Nazi mind reader dude in Starship Troopers.
:{)
quote:Originally posted by Curzon Dax: Oh yea! He'd be just as scary as Walter Koeing in Bab 5.
:{)
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: The topic MAY have some relevance - it mentions Wesley - and you all know he has a penchant for black leather suits.
Posted by FuturamaGuy (Member # 968) on :
Edit button must be broke on this page.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Black leather suits!
quote:Originally posted by FuturamaGuy: Edit button must be broke on this page.
Posted by Curzon Dax (Member # 1481) on :
Actually Seven would make a killer section 31 operative, and she even would look good in a black leather suit. (sound of whip cracking)
:{)
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: Black leather suits!
quote:Originally posted by FuturamaGuy: Edit button must be broke on this page.
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
Seven of Nine in Section 31? Er, no. For starters, she wouldn't be any good at it. We already saw one episode of Voyager which focused on her executing a covert operation at the behest of TimeFleet Command or whatever the name of Braxton's outfit was. She botched it up big time: she was discovered, she had to pass on her mission to another untrained person (herself), squealed the mission to Janeway, etc. Then you have Seven of Nine's personality. She seems much more interested and orientated towards the sciences than in political upheavals.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Not to mention that, if regular non-cloak-and-dagger-let's-play-at-spies Starfleet personnel have a few (probably justifiable) qualms about Picard's status as ex-Borg, the really paranoid would never trust Seven.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: Not to mention that, if regular non-cloak-and-dagger-let's-play-at-spies Starfleet personnel have a few (probably justifiable) qualms about Picard's status as ex-Borg, the really paranoid would never trust Seven.
Yeah, but who would notice? Everyone's attention stays about 4 1/2 feet from the floor.
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
Seven was a very well developed character. I'd say Section 36 at least.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Section 36 (DD unit)
Man, B'Lanna would never make that squad!
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Oh, meow.
Posted by Curzon Dax (Member # 1481) on :
Hellooooo drone!!! :{)
quote:Originally posted by Balaam Xumucane: Seven was a very well developed character. I'd say Section 36 at least.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
!?!
Seven in tight-black leather? A mirror universe version as The Indendent's sex slave/underling/protege Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
No No they make her wear a stylish tank-top!
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
I think I even had pictures posted at one time to go with it.