Was recently watching chain of command and began to feel some empathy toward the spoonheads, when Madred speaks about how children were starving on the streets and how the military had no choice other than to conquer weaker races and steal their resources, it opens up questions about weather they really were wrong to annex Bajor, maybe it was a case of 'your world survives or mine does' Also i've always been intrigued by the level of hate shown by morally superior 24th century humans toward the cardies, O'Brien, Maxwell, Jalleco, the Maquis. Didn't the Talarians attack Federation colonies and massacre civilians in the past? No one gets in cold sweats about them...
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Maxwell had his family slaughtered by Cardassians. O'Brien was in a Vietnam type situation and killed for the first time because of them. Jellico was under orders to stop them. And the Cardassian military annexed the Maquis' land and started roughing up the people that lived there. So I'd say a little animosity is pretty human in those situations.
To bring it down to a modern day level, say all Asian people you'd ever seen (or Indians, or whites, or whatever) killed your family, stole your house, and started a war with your A/V Club. How would you feel the next time you saw someone of their race? No matter how morally superior you've become, it's going to have an effect.
According to whose moral standards are we to have pity on the Cardassian Military for annexing Bajor, instituting slave labor, raping women, and torturing, murdering and humilating citizens all in the name of preserving their race? Just because they were out to save themselves doesn't jusitfy acts of genocide.
Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn (Member # 1490) on :
Surely the Klingons have acted with as much savegry as the Cardassians. The Breen used slave labour. The Talarians massacred Federation citizens along the borders. Indeed the occupation only spiralled out of controll because the structure of the Cardassian military allowed its members to operate with impunity, rather than these actions being agreed as policy. As Garak said, 'just another swaggering self-important Gul with too much vanity and not enough ability' surely an SS situation if ever there was one, with criminal elements sneaking into an organisation and carrying out horrific acts due to a lack of adequate oversight.
Posted by Vice-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
I wouldn't say the Cardassian Military Command had a lack of adequate oversight... more like they were allowed to do whatever as long as the Union prospered. Hell, the Obsidian Order knew what the citizens were doing in their own homes, I would think they knew what the military was up to but chose not to get in the way so the order can do covert ops.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
And people showed just as much aminosity towards the Klingons in STVI. But by the time of TNG, they'd been friendly for decades. The crimes that they commited in the past weren't directly felt by the current generation.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
There seems to be a slight difference here, though, in that most TOS characters seemed to hate or fear the Klingons, whereas very few TNG characters showed enough interest in Cardassians to either hate or fear.
Apparently, the Klingon conflict had touched the Federation much more broadly (if not more deeply) than the Cardassian one. Perhaps this would be because of an astrographical proximity of the Klingons versus the "border wars" status of the Cardassian nastiness. It's like a vet going "I fought at Guadalcanal" and getting all Oohs and Aahs, and another saying "I was at Mogadishu" and getting lots of Huhs and Ehs... Some conflicts are more "popular" than others.
And some go out of fashion faster than others. PsyLiam makes a good point about the Feds having completely overcome their hatred of Klingons by TNG, although there is some residual fear in the first few seasons. (That evaporates when we move on to the "drunkard hasbeens" characterization of the Klingon Empire, though.)
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
And come to think of it, the only real contact we've had with the Cardassians has involved the military. And it's the military that seems to draw the venom from the humans who have issues with them.
I would wager that Starfleet would be just as eager to protect the Cardassian civilian population as that of any other enemy. And Maxwell was attacking Cardassian starships that were at the very least under the supervision of the military.
The people who have what might be called bigotry issues with the Cardassians have all had personal experiences that probably skew their outlook. And nothing earns the military pity points for the brutality of the Occupation, as you're suggesting. Not even "the officers got big heads" argument.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
The Cardassian military society is the antithesis of Federation society- no fair trials, secret police, military rule.
It's no wonder that there's no sympathy towards the Cardassians- even the Klingons allow for a (mostly) far and honorable trial.
quote:As Garak said, 'just another swaggering self-important Gul with too much vanity and not enough ability' surely an SS situation if ever there was one, with criminal elements sneaking into an organisation and carrying out horrific acts due to a lack of adequate oversight.
An "SS situation"? that's probably the single most thoughtless thing I've ever seen posted here.
Go read up on the SS sometime- they were ruthless, effecient and there was no "criminal element" involved- they had a mandate to do all the horrific things they did- it was officially encouraged at the highest levels.
Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn (Member # 1490) on :
I know plenty about german military (or indeed para-military) history thanks! I was reffering to the Waffen SS and at no time where they actively encouraged to commit criminal acts, instead they were given a mandate to get the job done without fear of punishment. The totenkopf (deaths head) division for example commmited numerous war crimes because their commander Theadore Eicke was an arsehole, he schooled them in aggressive tactics and came out with things like "hardness saves fear, in fact hardness saves more, it saves worry, it saves hardship, it saves sorrow" On the other hand the Viking Division was a unit of equal size (20,000) and as good a combat record, and yet recorded no war crimes. Their commander was Feelix Steiner who was a respected former army officer who treated his men with a fair hand. The point i was making is that this kind of system is probably what the Cardassians operate because they do not answer to a government or its people, for instance the occupation under Dukat was probably very different to what it would have been under Legat Ghemor. (Yes I know he killed some monks) There was no 'Policy' as such Think of it this way, if a crop eating disease struck the USA, and "millions starved, bodies went unburried, disease was rampant" :-Madred. And General 'Smith' rose to power dissolving the presdiency and the Senate, he then agreed a deal with the UN that the USA could exchange oil for food, he sent Colonel Red to Iran and Colonal Blue to Saudi and told them they were to extract a million barrels of oil a year through any means neccesary, and that there would be no oversight, no press, no civilian concern, they simply had to deliver, everything would then depend on what kind of men they were. Colonal Red may introduce a carrot and stick approach where as Colonal Blue may introduce slave labour, no one back home would find out, and even if they did they wouldn't be arsed as long as they weren't dying in the streets.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
What, no Colonel Green reference?
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Madred's rantings about his personal misery sound rather hollow in light of the later DS9 assertions that the Cardassian government was stable and had been stable for the past 800 years. And judging by episodes like "Civil Defense", field commanders and prefects and the like were apparently kept on a pretty short leash after all.
Perhaps there was a "get it done" mentality at play, but everything that was done was still part of endorsed policy. Up to and including the final withdrawal, in which the military meekly followed the cease-and-desist orders of the government (or, as "Cardassians" would have put it had the terminology been invented at that point, the Detapa Council overruled the Central Command). Space Nazis or not, byzantine backstabbers in the higher echelons or not, these people were *organized* and *loyal* to the very end - a fact that actually sealed their miserable fate.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
We never saw anything to indicate any "criminal element" among the Cardassian military.
Despite the DS9 writers using such comapritive terms as "labor camps" and "occupation", the Cardassians seem much better- and more structured- than the Nazis.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
And nothing in your illustration would absolve General Smith or any of his officers of being judged as violent, sending officers into sovereign nations to extract their resources soley for the benefit of is own country. The people it benefitted might not mind, but what would that say about the people as a society?
So again, according to what standard of morality are we to use self preservation as an excuse to commit blatantly aggressive and oppresive acts?
Perhaps instead, General Smith's country should offer themselves as a work force and *earn* the resources they need.
Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn (Member # 1490) on :
section 31 are a form of secret police, and the Federation council was nearly dissolved by Admiral Leighton and would if then potentially have been under a type of military rule. I totally agree with it being norally wron but is it morally indefensable? All empires were born and grew for two reasons, greed and prestige/arrogance (Roman, Persian, British) There is no example of an Empire conquering others because its only other alternative was extinction the way the Cardassians did. Also, not counting Bajor, the spoons have been more sinned against than sinners, two Federation starships have gone on the rampage behind their lines killing at least 700 people (including a civilian science station and merchant ship) And they were also invaded by the true barbarians of the Star Trek universe, the Klingons, who attacked when they were in the middle of long sought after political reform. What crimes do the Klingon's commit against the peoples they supress (the Kriosians for example) yet have their actions conveniently ignored by the Federation because they are allied.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Sinned against? Hardly. The Cardassians massacred civillian populations on Cetlek III (though it's unclear if the military command knew they were civillians and just told the troops otherwise).
The incidents with the Phionex and Defiant were rarities (as was the Cardassians trying to destroy the Stargazer despite a treaty in effect, I suppose).
I dont think the Kriosinas were under Klingon rle (though there may be more than one race with the same sounding name in trek).
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
The Klingons actions are *not* ignored. But the Prime Directive clearly forbids them from interferring with internal political or military decisions. Look what happened when the Klingons actually did go on the offensive against the Cardassians... at least one officer and crew felt it necessary to defy orders in order to warn the Cardassians.
The alliance agreement doesn't go away just because the Klingons are doing ther things the Federation doesn't like.
The destruction of the Cardassian ships by the Phoenix was a tragedy, even if they actually were running weapons. But no more so, I'd say, than torturing captured Federation officers. Or Maquis. Or, hell, their own citizens. We're talking isolated incidents of agression against them versus a way of life that uses fear to keep its populace in line, then gives them reasons to stay afraid.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
In general, Trek is replete with incidents where thousands get killed and obvious acts of war are committed, yet both sides act with great restraint afterwards. One might deduce that the threshold of going to war is very high because the potential loss of life in Trek-style warfare is so utterly intolerable. Sacrificing a few thousands or even a few millions must look quite acceptable if the alternative is sterilization of entire planets.
Certainly massacring a colony or two "by mistake" is considered relatively mundane in Alpha quadrant realpolitik. And one may put part of the blame on the "innocent civilians" who must have known the risks of settling in the frontier.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Nim' (Member # 205) on :
Um, the klingons went apeshit after one of their crazy captains were killed by a balding starfleet guy in self defense (kicking victim repeatedly in face with boot heel).
And I don't remember how many Trek-episodes have featured a crew member being falsely accused of murdering a local alien and has to race against the clock to bust conspiracy case wide open and avoid war/other form of apeshit.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
No- the klingons went apeship after the Federation(longtime enemies at that point and at best, tolerated neighbors) ecretly developed a device that anyone except the polyanna Fedeartion would use as the ultimate WMD.
That dead klingon captain just added insulrt to injury.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Well, the Klingons thought it was a WMD, and they didn't want the smoking gun to be the destruction of their homeworld, and besides, they just wanted to liberate the Genesis Planet.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
They did: they got rid of that threatening Oberth class starship after a bitter struggle in which the mighty klingon warriors risked all for honor!
Truly, it was a battle worthy of song!
Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn (Member # 1490) on :
Ha ha! yeah, the Klingon's are full of Shit, they hide amongst wreckage because 'in war, nothing is more honourable than victory' and they are supposed to kill themselves when captured unless 'there is hope of escape or enemies to fight' and crimes can be covered up for 'the good of the empire' They make this honour code up as they go along. The Klingons need to be sterilised, if the Remans ever get their act together I hope they head straight for Qo'nos, and I hope a movie or new series concept is there to see it!
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
"The Remans getting their act together" is indeed a possible future plotline, ranking right alongside "The Pakleds take over the galaxy" and "The Empire emerges from a transrealm rift, tries to take over the Milky Way, and is promptly defeated by aggressive tribbles".
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
But war and shooting and think of the FX oh man!
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I WANT TO SIGN UP TO YOUR NEWSLETTER!! Hang on...
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
You know, I don't think anyone has ever thought about the inconsistancies in the Klingon code of honor before. It's certainly not like that aspect of the culture makes them relatable or realistic in any way.
Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn (Member # 1490) on :
yawn, temporal causality loop.
Posted by Marauth (Member # 1320) on :
quote:Originally posted by Aban Rune: You know, I don't think anyone has ever thought about the inconsistancies in the Klingon code of honor before. It's certainly not like that aspect of the culture makes them relatable or realistic in any way.
Cough*Take off of the frankly quite dodgy samurai code*cough*.
Excuse, me that's quite a bad cough I have there. The problem with the Klingons is that a truly honourable people wouldn't make for very interesting enemies, you'll notice all the truly honourable Klingons side with the Feds, Martok and co. while families like the ill-fated Duras always gun for the eviiil humans and have less honour than a new-labour cabinet minister.
P.S. The Remans are the most hideous creation ever and hopefully the next producer will say 'Nemesis' - what, that never happened!' and we can all go back to having Romulans living on Remus, Data alive (for the purposes of novels that are better than the show now, I doubt Spiner will ever want to take up the role again) and most importantly of all no bloody dune buggies... Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn (Member # 1490) on :
Indeed the Remans where pants and i have no intention of defending them, I just would like to see the Klingons lambasted in the strongest possable terms, oh and forgive me for mentioning something which may have been mentioned before, but the star trek universe being what it now is, that something we're all gonna have to learn to live with!
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Aban Rune: You know, I don't think anyone has ever thought about the inconsistancies in the Klingon code of honor before. It's certainly not like that aspect of the culture makes them relatable or realistic in any way.
Doesn't Admiral Jerok mention something about how the Romulans used to the honorable ones...?
Somewhere between TOS's movies and TNG the writers flipped that particular coin.
As to Remans, we're stuck with them. I'd prefer to see them used as cannon fodder ans as slaves in any depiction of the Earth/Romulan war than have them conviently swept under the rug. Better to take the hard road there.
Mabye they can establish some major disaster (war or mining dilithium) on Remus that makes the planet such a hellhole (who knows? it could still be a garden spot in Enterprise's era).
As long as they dont give us any bullshit about "their ozone will be depleted in ten years", I'll be happy. Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn (Member # 1490) on :
These inconsistencies are not between individual good and bad Klingons, they are inconsistencies of 'policy' i.e one minute its not good to get captured but then it is, depending on the circumstances. Troi describes the Romulans as honourable in her briefing to Picard, although an attack on Khitoma 'when they were supposed to be our allies' -worf) doesn't sound promising in the honour stakes. It tends to just be a loosely used word in the Star Trek universe, especially among the Klingons
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Sort of like it is in our universe. Klingons base their honor on what other people think of them. The truly honorable Klingons or Romulans or whatever, in the Star Trek stories, or those who base their decisions on Human morality.
Worf for instance does what's right in spite of the fact that it will cost him his honor, or standing in Klingon society.
Attacking someone might be considered honorable because it looks good to other Klingons, in spite of the fact that to Humans it's considered cowardly. Being captured and slaughtering all your captors... likewise honorable to Klingons. Being captured and spending the rest of your days rotting in fetters... not so honorable. Remember, Martok had the opportunity to kill Jem'Hadar and still entertained the possibility of escape.
And like pretty much every other moral issue, yes we're going to find differences in interpretation. Any Klingon who says, "It's dishonorable to so-and-so" is just as likely to be speaking about his own beliefs as he is about any kind of moral policy of the Empire.
Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn (Member # 1490) on :
I always theought that simply being captured was a disshonour? thats why the Klingons in the Romulan prison camp in the Kariar system refused to go home and bring shame to their families. Why was it okay for Martok? ALso, why did the Federation ever agree to an aliance with the Klingons in the first place, was it simply a matter of convenience? Everything about them is opposite to Federation beliefs, they are brutal, savage, empire builders who turn on their allies at the drop of a hat. As troi says about the Son'a, "why are we allied with these people" The Klingons refer to starfleet officers (as a rule) with contempt, the Klingon general in Aquiel and Gowron refer to that 'child's uniform' There's also a mention in Equinox that Ransom was once pursued (pre-war) by a bird of prey, we can infer that this incident did not provoke a response. I seriously hope that any future incarnation of the franchise deals them serious punishment.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
"Why was it okay for Martok?" Because Martok has different beliefs. He obviously viewed the opportunity to kill an enemy, however small, as something worth living for, and the possibility of escape as somethign honorable, perhaps to report back abotu the Jem-Hadar. The prisoners in the Koria system felt differently.
"Why did the Federation ever agree to an aliance with the Klingons in the first place?" Because the Federation are in the business of making peace, and being at peace with someone is better than having to look over your back all the time. They still kept their eyes on them and it wasn't a "we'll support you in everything you do" kind of thing. They opposed their actions towards the Cardassians and, doing so even led to hostility. It was a peace agreement. Peace good. Slaughtering each other bad.
I too vote for a series entirely devoted to annihilating one of the more interesting and well developed species in the franchise. Why? Because they suck and they smell bad. And because one of their swords showed up on an epsiode of SG-1 and that kind of cross-series discontinuity must be destroyed.
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
Maybe that particular Goa'uld (Tok'Ra?) was a fan of Earth TV? It's obvious that Star Trek as a TV series exists in the Stargate universe.
B.J.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
Yes, but get this: at least half a dozen people in the Gateverse look and sound exactly like Trek characters! OH MAN!
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
No wonder Colonel Simmons knew so much...
Re: Klingons and capture: Klingons have rather a strong dislike of Romulans. Perhaps being captured by such a "dishonorable" enemy is considered dishonorable of itself. Whereas, being captured by a worthy adversary like the Jem'Hadar is less so.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
A good point. Klingons view Romulans as cowardly, sneaky p'taq. The Jem'Hadar were the enemy, but at least they were worthy opponants.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Where was the Klingon sword on Stargate? (And which kind was it?)
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
I can't remember if it was a standard bat'leth or the sword of Kahless.
B.J.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
There was a Bat'leth hanging on the wall in Consu's throne room in the episode "The Other Guys".
"Nerd." "Geek."
EDIT: BJ beat me by like a second...
Posted by FuturamaGuy (Member # 968) on :
you both suck
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Obviously the real Goa'uld problem with Earth is the insidious invasiveness of our pop culture. Young Goa'uld coming home with their caps turned backwards and listening to this Jay-Z instead of practicing their hieroglyphics and lording it over the slaves.
Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn (Member # 1490) on :
As a slight aside to the Stargate banter, I wonder if the Cardassians are the only Empire that actually forceably occupy planets? When the false hol-image of Weyoun and Damar planning the invasion of the Star-Empire is recorded, Weyoun mentions the 'Outlying colonies will begin to look out for themselves once we occupy the homeworld' perhaps the Romulan Empire consists of Romulus, Remus, and a few colonies with no occupied worlds with other races enslaved by them...
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Perhaps.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Well, in the books the Romulans do indeed subjegate worlds in their space.
Of course the books have always been considered canon and must be considered gospel- particularly to the writers of the TV shows.
Unlike us fans, the writers take continuity very seriously.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
Was that sarcasm or am I missing something? What books are considered Star Trek canon?
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
Was that sarcasm or am I missing something? What books are considered Star Trek canon?
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
None.
None.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Yes that was sarcasm: the lack of an emoticon is my attempt at subtlty.
Worked too.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Also, Keith DeCandido's recent novels do their damnedest to portray the Klingons as competent empire-makers and subjugators. There's also canon support to the idea that Klingons subjugate (rather than sterilize) conquered planets: their actions at Organia, the concept of a multi-species gulag in ST6, the rebellious world of Krios...
With the "Nemesis" revelation of Reman identity, we're also given a canonical reason to believe that Romulans, too, subjugate alien scum to serve their empire.
So far, though, only the Dominion lets "subjugated" peoples serve aboard their starships. And not everybody may agree with the use of the word "subjugated" in case of the Jem'Hadar or the Vorta, although at least the latter are a preexisting, conquered and THEN genetically manipulated species.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Manticore (Member # 1227) on :
Don't forget the refugees from Klingon space in ENT's 'Judgement.'
(Though I'm betting that some of you are trying to...)
Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn (Member # 1490) on :
I don't know if the Jem Hadar or the Vorta can be called subjugated, they are the instruments of conquest of other races. I don't think that at any time the Founders ever travelled through space enslaving solids, rather than they created their army on some rogue planetoid and unleashed them when they were ready. One interesting point is that Weyoun states the dominion 'has not surrendered in battle since its founding ten thousand years ago' yet the female shapeshifter says to thott gor, 'for two millenia the Jem Hadar have been our first line of defence' we can probably infer from this that a prototype of the jem hadar existed at some stage, and almost certainly resembled the Legion of Doom.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
The So'na, on the other hand, seemed to use 2 subjugated races aboard their ships. Either that, or they were allies.
My understanding has been that the Jem'Hadar and the Vorta were genetically created by the Founders.
The Federation space seems to be replete with various indigenous civilizations. The Delta Quadrant was similar. If this is typical of the galaxy as a whole, and if Klingon and Romulan territories each are roughly the same size as the Federation, then it would stand to reason there should be other indigenous civilizations within their borders. They gotta do something with them and neither the Klingons nor Romulans strike me as the type to simply "live and let live" with them.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
weyoun's account of how the Vorta came to be as they are made it pretty clear that they weren't conquered. IIRC, a primate-ish Vorta helped an injured Changling. The Changling remembered the race and used them as administrators in their empire. Though, one could consider the fact that the godhood of the Changlings is now embedded within their genetic structure to be a form of conquest, I suppose.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
The So'na took over two pre-warp civilizations and, while the extreme boost in technology was probably a huge boon to both "conquored" races, the So'na basically took over.
OTOH, it's quite possible the two races view the So'na as heroes (eliminating such trivial things as starvation with their replicato tech would do that, I'd think) and follow of theiir own volition.
It seems at least possible, considering the extremely few So'na could not hold two races hostage for long (once those races were educated enough to be trained in starship operations and such).
As to the KLingons, the notion of them as "empire builders" and not just conquoring thugs seems possible as far back as TOS, when the klingon troublemaker from TWT says "that's whay they're learning to speak klingonese". It implies that at least some members of the Empire join of their own volition (possibly for protection from the Romulans, if their worlds are along the border between empires).
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
The internal workings of the Dominion seem particularly strange. (The cynical might even suggest that they just acquired traits at random as plots required.) Some members of the Dominion don't appear to know they are members. The Dominion is hugely powerful, and yet no one from the Gamma Quadrant seems to be quite sure about the details. Some future TV show could get some interesting stories out of an attempt to make the Dominion make sense. (Or, I suppose, alternatively, could sink into an unwatchable morass of contradictions.)
I don't think it would require too many Son'a to subjugate their client planets, depending on how they went about it and the relative levels of technology at work. They probably make sure the subspace radios they hand out can only pick up the "Son'a Are Awesome And Friendly Giftgifters" channel.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
I read an interview somewhere that likened the Dominion to the ancient Romans. A city or civilization either voluntarilly joined the Roman Empire or else the Legions marched in and forced the city or civilization to join the Roman Empire.
So it's quite possible for some to view the Dominion as being great and others having a different opinion.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
The "problem" isn't that some planets in the Dominion want to be there and some don't, but that some planets know that the Dominion exists but nothing else, some planets know (or I guess think they know) that the Vorta run the Dominion, some planets know I don't know what all else.
I don't think the Roman analogy works in this regard. Like, to match up, a place like Gaul would send tribute to Rome, but think that Rome was run by the Greeks, while Egypt sends its tribute out to some secret location off the coast, where it is retrieved by people no Egyptian has ever seen.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Also, for the Roman thing to sync, the Dominion would have to activly protect it's citizens from outside dangers. A Roman citizen was (at one time) a representative of Rome wherever they traveled.
Most Dominion worlds are probably happy to be members- the Karemma for example, dont really complain about being members- they are just greedy enough to risk dominion reprisals by doing business with the Alpha Quadrant.
With the Dominion not having any Prime Directive (aside from "Serve The Founders") races like the Karemma may have aquired all their higher technology from the Dominion (agricultural worlds in particular).
It's not as though the Dominion requires so much in return- they need no conscripts or even food for their armies and a low-tech world would have little to offer aside from raw materials.
In exchange, they'd get advanced medicines, replicators (probably anyway) and the protection that enforced peace within the Dominion would offer.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
What are the negative sides of being a Dominion member? Have we heard of any?
The Karemma imply it's not good to ask questions from or about the Dominion enforcers. They also tell they get "orders" every now and then. Is there something particularly sinister behind this?
The Dominion was blamed for driving the T-Rogorans from their territory, after which they in turn harrassed the flakyfaces whose name escapes me. Were the T-Rogorans a member race? Nothing is said outright.
It does seem that joining the Dominion is a pretty good idea - obviously in light of the negative aspects of the alternative, but also on its own merits...
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn (Member # 1490) on :
The occupation of DS9 didn't seem to grim. I think the Roman analogy is pretty good in the sense that Rome expanded its borders in order to neutralise potential threats. A barbarian race was any race that was not Roman and needed to be pacified, with their entire military destroyed. Likewise if they could not conquer they would destroy, employing the poison well technique to kill everyone they couldn't conquer (much like the blight) The founders viewed all races outside their juristiction as potential threats who needed to be neutralised. I think also that to be part of the Dominion would certainly have its downside, for instance if the Bak ku planet was in their space the founders would have given the go ahead to iradiate the planet with no attempt to even remove the population, such was their apathy toward humanoid suffering. There were also some sinister sounds coming from the female changeling toward the end, with odo asking "whats going to happen to them (the solids)" with her replying "what must be done will be done, its as simple as that" and also "you can't help them no matter how much you may want to, its too late for them." We could speculate that the founders campaign against the solids was about to be escalated, perhaps with concentration camp style treatment on the agenda for the races who had no use to them...
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)