posted
Was recently watching chain of command and began to feel some empathy toward the spoonheads, when Madred speaks about how children were starving on the streets and how the military had no choice other than to conquer weaker races and steal their resources, it opens up questions about weather they really were wrong to annex Bajor, maybe it was a case of 'your world survives or mine does' Also i've always been intrigued by the level of hate shown by morally superior 24th century humans toward the cardies, O'Brien, Maxwell, Jalleco, the Maquis. Didn't the Talarians attack Federation colonies and massacre civilians in the past? No one gets in cold sweats about them...
-------------------- The disappearance of Donald Love
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posted
Maxwell had his family slaughtered by Cardassians. O'Brien was in a Vietnam type situation and killed for the first time because of them. Jellico was under orders to stop them. And the Cardassian military annexed the Maquis' land and started roughing up the people that lived there. So I'd say a little animosity is pretty human in those situations.
To bring it down to a modern day level, say all Asian people you'd ever seen (or Indians, or whites, or whatever) killed your family, stole your house, and started a war with your A/V Club. How would you feel the next time you saw someone of their race? No matter how morally superior you've become, it's going to have an effect.
According to whose moral standards are we to have pity on the Cardassian Military for annexing Bajor, instituting slave labor, raping women, and torturing, murdering and humilating citizens all in the name of preserving their race? Just because they were out to save themselves doesn't jusitfy acts of genocide.
posted
Surely the Klingons have acted with as much savegry as the Cardassians. The Breen used slave labour. The Talarians massacred Federation citizens along the borders. Indeed the occupation only spiralled out of controll because the structure of the Cardassian military allowed its members to operate with impunity, rather than these actions being agreed as policy. As Garak said, 'just another swaggering self-important Gul with too much vanity and not enough ability' surely an SS situation if ever there was one, with criminal elements sneaking into an organisation and carrying out horrific acts due to a lack of adequate oversight.
-------------------- The disappearance of Donald Love
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posted
I wouldn't say the Cardassian Military Command had a lack of adequate oversight... more like they were allowed to do whatever as long as the Union prospered. Hell, the Obsidian Order knew what the citizens were doing in their own homes, I would think they knew what the military was up to but chose not to get in the way so the order can do covert ops.
-------------------- "It speaks to some basic human needs: that there is a tomorrow, it's not all going to be over with a big splash and a bomb, that the human race is improving, that we have things to be proud of as humans." -Gene Roddenberry about Star Trek
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posted
And people showed just as much aminosity towards the Klingons in STVI. But by the time of TNG, they'd been friendly for decades. The crimes that they commited in the past weren't directly felt by the current generation.
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
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posted
There seems to be a slight difference here, though, in that most TOS characters seemed to hate or fear the Klingons, whereas very few TNG characters showed enough interest in Cardassians to either hate or fear.
Apparently, the Klingon conflict had touched the Federation much more broadly (if not more deeply) than the Cardassian one. Perhaps this would be because of an astrographical proximity of the Klingons versus the "border wars" status of the Cardassian nastiness. It's like a vet going "I fought at Guadalcanal" and getting all Oohs and Aahs, and another saying "I was at Mogadishu" and getting lots of Huhs and Ehs... Some conflicts are more "popular" than others.
And some go out of fashion faster than others. PsyLiam makes a good point about the Feds having completely overcome their hatred of Klingons by TNG, although there is some residual fear in the first few seasons. (That evaporates when we move on to the "drunkard hasbeens" characterization of the Klingon Empire, though.)
posted
And come to think of it, the only real contact we've had with the Cardassians has involved the military. And it's the military that seems to draw the venom from the humans who have issues with them.
I would wager that Starfleet would be just as eager to protect the Cardassian civilian population as that of any other enemy. And Maxwell was attacking Cardassian starships that were at the very least under the supervision of the military.
The people who have what might be called bigotry issues with the Cardassians have all had personal experiences that probably skew their outlook. And nothing earns the military pity points for the brutality of the Occupation, as you're suggesting. Not even "the officers got big heads" argument.
posted
The Cardassian military society is the antithesis of Federation society- no fair trials, secret police, military rule.
It's no wonder that there's no sympathy towards the Cardassians- even the Klingons allow for a (mostly) far and honorable trial.
quote:As Garak said, 'just another swaggering self-important Gul with too much vanity and not enough ability' surely an SS situation if ever there was one, with criminal elements sneaking into an organisation and carrying out horrific acts due to a lack of adequate oversight.
An "SS situation"? that's probably the single most thoughtless thing I've ever seen posted here.
Go read up on the SS sometime- they were ruthless, effecient and there was no "criminal element" involved- they had a mandate to do all the horrific things they did- it was officially encouraged at the highest levels.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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posted
I know plenty about german military (or indeed para-military) history thanks! I was reffering to the Waffen SS and at no time where they actively encouraged to commit criminal acts, instead they were given a mandate to get the job done without fear of punishment. The totenkopf (deaths head) division for example commmited numerous war crimes because their commander Theadore Eicke was an arsehole, he schooled them in aggressive tactics and came out with things like "hardness saves fear, in fact hardness saves more, it saves worry, it saves hardship, it saves sorrow" On the other hand the Viking Division was a unit of equal size (20,000) and as good a combat record, and yet recorded no war crimes. Their commander was Feelix Steiner who was a respected former army officer who treated his men with a fair hand. The point i was making is that this kind of system is probably what the Cardassians operate because they do not answer to a government or its people, for instance the occupation under Dukat was probably very different to what it would have been under Legat Ghemor. (Yes I know he killed some monks) There was no 'Policy' as such Think of it this way, if a crop eating disease struck the USA, and "millions starved, bodies went unburried, disease was rampant" :-Madred. And General 'Smith' rose to power dissolving the presdiency and the Senate, he then agreed a deal with the UN that the USA could exchange oil for food, he sent Colonel Red to Iran and Colonal Blue to Saudi and told them they were to extract a million barrels of oil a year through any means neccesary, and that there would be no oversight, no press, no civilian concern, they simply had to deliver, everything would then depend on what kind of men they were. Colonal Red may introduce a carrot and stick approach where as Colonal Blue may introduce slave labour, no one back home would find out, and even if they did they wouldn't be arsed as long as they weren't dying in the streets.
-------------------- The disappearance of Donald Love
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posted
Madred's rantings about his personal misery sound rather hollow in light of the later DS9 assertions that the Cardassian government was stable and had been stable for the past 800 years. And judging by episodes like "Civil Defense", field commanders and prefects and the like were apparently kept on a pretty short leash after all.
Perhaps there was a "get it done" mentality at play, but everything that was done was still part of endorsed policy. Up to and including the final withdrawal, in which the military meekly followed the cease-and-desist orders of the government (or, as "Cardassians" would have put it had the terminology been invented at that point, the Detapa Council overruled the Central Command). Space Nazis or not, byzantine backstabbers in the higher echelons or not, these people were *organized* and *loyal* to the very end - a fact that actually sealed their miserable fate.
posted
We never saw anything to indicate any "criminal element" among the Cardassian military.
Despite the DS9 writers using such comapritive terms as "labor camps" and "occupation", the Cardassians seem much better- and more structured- than the Nazis.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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posted
And nothing in your illustration would absolve General Smith or any of his officers of being judged as violent, sending officers into sovereign nations to extract their resources soley for the benefit of is own country. The people it benefitted might not mind, but what would that say about the people as a society?
So again, according to what standard of morality are we to use self preservation as an excuse to commit blatantly aggressive and oppresive acts?
Perhaps instead, General Smith's country should offer themselves as a work force and *earn* the resources they need.
posted
section 31 are a form of secret police, and the Federation council was nearly dissolved by Admiral Leighton and would if then potentially have been under a type of military rule. I totally agree with it being norally wron but is it morally indefensable? All empires were born and grew for two reasons, greed and prestige/arrogance (Roman, Persian, British) There is no example of an Empire conquering others because its only other alternative was extinction the way the Cardassians did. Also, not counting Bajor, the spoons have been more sinned against than sinners, two Federation starships have gone on the rampage behind their lines killing at least 700 people (including a civilian science station and merchant ship) And they were also invaded by the true barbarians of the Star Trek universe, the Klingons, who attacked when they were in the middle of long sought after political reform. What crimes do the Klingon's commit against the peoples they supress (the Kriosians for example) yet have their actions conveniently ignored by the Federation because they are allied.
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posted
Sinned against? Hardly. The Cardassians massacred civillian populations on Cetlek III (though it's unclear if the military command knew they were civillians and just told the troops otherwise).
The incidents with the Phionex and Defiant were rarities (as was the Cardassians trying to destroy the Stargazer despite a treaty in effect, I suppose).
I dont think the Kriosinas were under Klingon rle (though there may be more than one race with the same sounding name in trek).
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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