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Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn (Member # 1490) on :
 
Since its patently obvious the current trek production staff are about as insightfull as a Pakled withdrawing from White, the bright cats on this board should start prompting them with ideas of their own.
A story i started knocking together a couple of years back but couldn't be arsed finishing was about a fleet of Fed ships that flee a battle with the dominion (possibly the 7th) believing all is lost and escape through a wormhole which also happens to send them back in time a millenia (a la Red Dwarf episode something or other) their offspring then return to reclaim the Federation from the Dominion, only to find they didn't win afterall and instead become a rival for the real Federation. In their absence they'd developed their own culture and technology, and were basically a Federation with an alien ideology. I freely admit it was inspired by the clans from Mechwarrior, the human offspring of Korenski who preached 'the rights of the traveller and the reasons for exodus' and were intent on reclaiming earth.
 

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Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
 
Yes. Because we know so much more about television than the people who actually make a living from it.

But since it's been a while since we had a thread like this, I'll play along.

Frankly, I don't think any 'conservative' spaceship-series is going to work anymore. All has been said and done (multiple times) on that front.

I also feel that the current ST Universe is completely bogged down on trivia and technobabble. There simply is too much continuity. Perhaps a comic-like 'reboot' of the franchise might be a good idea. Start from scratch, focus on just a few ideas, resist the Alien-of-the-Week urge. You can focus on stories, and forget about the pointless details.

OTOH, I haven't got a clue.
 

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Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
 
About the only thing left is "Time Trek". Just about every other storyline has been used/abused beyond salvage. An Academy theme wouldn't last long,IMO, to few story possibilities. It's apparent that anything pre-TNG is going to have trouble fitting in, just like "Enterprise" did. I would almost rather they did a TOS era series with another starship and crew.

OR.... they could do a Fed-Expedition to pick up the Kelvans. Have them get REALLY lost so that there isn't a way home PERIOD and create there own federation. Trouble is that everything that gets proposed seems derivative of something else.

Maybe its time for Trek to boldly go into the Black Hole of no more series.
 

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Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
 
Ferengiiiii.... innnnn... SPAAAAAAAAAACCCCEEE....
 

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Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
 
How about a trek set in the mirror universe. It wouldn't focus some much on storylines, but on how far they could push the envelope. Hell it could even be on HBO, and we would be free to stuff it with loads of cussin, violence, and nudity. It would be the trek I always envisioned with the hookers and the blackjack.

But if that fails, there's always the "Tholian Love Connection".

But in all seriousness I think we should start from square one again. Come up with new alian races with the possiblility of sacrificeing old ones like vulcans and klingons. Also the Federation shouldn't be so politically correct and should be more realistic to the behavior of humans. It should have many faults like preaching peace and tolerance while committing sordid business or starting unjust wars.
 

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Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
 
I've wondered if an expansive total reboot of the series might not be best. Wipe EVERYTHING, start at the beginning, and re-do it all. Keep what elements work well, but make the whole thing massively multi-threaded over all 300 years of history that we've seen.
 

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Posted by Zefram (Member # 1568) on :
 
I've enjoyed the Star Trek: SCE (Starfleet Corps of Engineers) series of e-books and would love to see a series based on it or something similar (e.g. Starfleet Engineers boldly going where others have gone before in order to fix what they screwed up or analyze what they discovered). However, I doubt there would be enough people interested in such a show to keep it going.

You could always base a show on an alien crew. This has been done in the Star Trek novels: the I.K.S. Gorkon novel series follows a Klingon starship.
 

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Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
 
Mars Needs Women: "But in all seriousness ..."
Wait a minute... I'm not going to agree to that.

Omega: Wipe EVERYTHING
Then why even bother to call it Star Trek?

If nothing about it remains Trekish, then they should just come up with another franchise. Otherwise it's just name dropping. So with as much absurd onesidedness as the thought that noone that works for the Star Trek productions knows what they're doing, I will defend the position that Star Trek needs to take a good long break. If they can make a cool movie without angering me... cool. But I can't envision another series working. Not right now. Even if it resembles a Red Dwarf episode.
 

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Posted by David Sands (Member # 132) on :
 
I am shocked, nay, appalled that this article has not been discussed anywhere today on Flare.

I have to admit, I don't think Card's off his rocker, but I still love the ST world anyway.

Kind of like how we all love Cookie Monster as adults. No, wait, they're taking at away from us too.
 

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Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
 
Well, PC would say that he isn't a MONSTER but an inhibitionlessly challenged individual that indulges in antiquated Americana baked goods.
 

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Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
 
If nothing about it remains Trekish...

Try reading my post more thoroughly.
 

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Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
 
Sorry Omega. You're right, I missed the bit at the end. I think I understand what you mean, but I don't think it would be accepted by fans or newcomers.
 

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Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
No speculation that Enterprise's basic premise (humans, standing in for America, go out and unite a number of diverse and often angry aliens into a peaceful, lasting, and powerful alliance) was rendered 100% unbelievable after 9/11 and the subsequent responses?

Not that there should be, I guess, because I'm as tired as anyone of overwrought arguments about The Day Everything Changed, but the thought has sort of occured to me, off and on. I mean, contrast Enterprise to the only other space opera to start on U.S. network TV this century, in which there's a huge disaster and afterwards democracy falls apart.

("Hey Sol System, what about Stargate Atlantis?" I am ignoring it because it does not fit perfectly into my hypothesis. Though note that Atlantis' setup allows it to totally ignore Earth and the various events and attitudes there, if it pleases to.)

Ron Moore and Brannon Braga raise the question of "rebooting" Star Trek in their First Contact commentary, even going so far as to namecheck Crisis on Infinite Earths, though they don't remember the name exactly. (Nor do they mention how it was all very complicated and quickly ignored.) On the pro side, it would let the creators set things up however they wished, to allow for the stories they wanted to tell. Con: how much of Star Trek's appeal is its built-up fake history?
 

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Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
So maybe Star Trek needs to be produced by (and for) cultures at the peak of their succcess, and Paramount should sell the rights to a Chinese or Indian company.
 

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 
I would point out to O. S. Card that his books aren't exactly perfect. Under his by-line, they mention that he's the author of Ender's Game and Ender's Shadow. There's a reason they didn't mention any of the books in between.

Anyway, his railings against the show seem pretty unsubstantial. Basically, it sounds like the show just isn't his cup of tea, so he responds to it with name-calling.

And, maybe I missed something in only having seen part of an episode or two, but in what way is "Lost" science fiction? I thought it was about people trapped on an island where fantastical things happen. Where's the science?
 

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Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 
O.S. card is one of those "Babe Ruth Authors"- guys that write so much that people only recall the large number of good stories.
Though only about half are really good.

He's kinda sci-fi's Stephen King.

...still, I'd rather hear his perspective than that bitter old shitheels fuck Harlan Ellison.

I think a long-range exploration/colonization mission might be workable- something far outside the Federation, with no familliar raced that are not brought along, and lots of non-humanoid (CGI) inteligences.
I'd use the sci-fi writing community to create the plots and have the established scripters (familliar with Trek and it's moral limits) do the dialogue.

Dan Simmons got apporached by Voyager's produced to write, but the produced did not go for Simmons' concept (citing that the CGI would be too costly), and did not know what a binary star was when Simons' did his phone-pitch.

Little things like that disheaten a sci-fi writer.
 

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Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
Lost is one hundred percent science fiction.

Or, if you prefer, is probably as science fictional as The X-Files, though potentially slightly more so, since the producers have claimed that there is a moderately realistic explanation behind such things as: the invisible monster that kills people, the young boy with the apparent ability to wish things into existence (such as polar bears on a tropical island), a sequence of numbers that have very strange effects when, for instance, used on a lottery ticket (or to guess the number of jelly beans in a jar), and I don't know what all else.

I mean, ultimately it might prove to be more fantasy than science fiction, but it is squarely within the unified sf genre.

Part of the classification problem comes from the causes of most of these mysterious things being hidden, with only their effects visible.

It's also the best show on TV. SAYS ME.
 

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Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
 

quote:

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I freely admit it was inspired by the clans from Mechwarrior, the human offspring of Korenski who preached 'the rights of the traveller and the reasons for exodus' and were intent on reclaiming earth. [/QB]

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and watching who ever plays Max Liao shit himself at the table....

would be a dream cometh true. [/QB]

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Originally posted by Jason Abbadon:

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and watching who ever plays Max Liao shit himself at the table....

would be a dream cometh true.

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Somewhere...there's a fetish website for even you. [/QB]

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you don't understand. it's not meant as a scat joke per se. it's simply like... well, say you have a BIG party, invite all your friends and assholes you hate and you tell them, yesterday, you went and fucked all their parents, the grandparents and the family dog and the parents LIKED IT. That kinda of WTF? reaction to learn your greatest enemy is currently fucking 3/4 of your realm and succeding!
 

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Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 
Yah. I figured (though I have not read Mechwarrior).
I think Gundam would be a better live-action series (if they can resolve which version history they would use).

I'd kill to see some real sci-fi books made into faithful miniseries- Eon, Hyperion, etc. or some of Lovecraft's works made into an ongoing series- it'd be like X-Files in the 1800s...except the main characters regularly die....horribly
 

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Posted by FawnDoo (Member # 1421) on :
 
I have to admit that mister Card did come off in the article as someone who just didn't like Trek and I have to say I found his argument just a little bit patronising, not to mention slightly stereotypical.

If you don't like it, don't watch it. Simple solution. Just don't rail against and have a go at people who do.

quote:

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They started making costumes and wearing pointy ears. They wrote messages in Klingon, they wrote their own stories about the characters, filling in what was left out � including, in one truly specialized subgenre, the "Kirk-Spock" stories in which their relationship was not as platonic and emotionless as the TV show depicted it.

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Could I possibly move for a Trek amendment to Godwin's law, whereby anyone who brings up the old, tired, hackneyed and pretty much just shite "a tiny percentage of Trek fans dress as Klingons/wear Spock ears, therefore every single Trek fan is a wanker of the highest order." argument is deemed to have immediately lost the plot?

:-) And yes, you may have noticed that this has touched a slight nerve with me.

FD
 

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Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
 
Simon touched on why I think a reboot wouldn't work...because it would ultimately be pointless. The Marvel Ultimate Line is doing this at the moment, starting from the beginning and retelling the story. So we've got a new version of Spidey's black suit, a new version of the Dark Pheonix storyline, and stuff like that. This creates two problems:

1/ The appeal is in redoing old stories and doing them better. However, that's also the reason why it fails. So they reboot Star Trek. We get to meet the Borg for the first time and the continuity is not messed up. Woo, and indeed pee. What have we gained? Not much.

2/ Once they've told all the classic Marvel stories, the universe line will end up exactly where the current line is. With the same problems of hideous amounts of backstory. So do we then reboot it again?

The mainstreem Marvel universe has gone on for (essentially) 40 solid years without a reboot. DC has. And you wouldn't pick up a Superman comic and say "thank god this is all much less confusing that the Fantastic 4". Rebooting strikes me as a lazy cop out, and a chance of trying to recapture past glories without actually doing anything new. Sure, we get 300 years of history that are consistent, but that doesn't mean we get good stories.

(Besides, wasn't TNG pretty much a reboot anyway? They changed the status quo fairly drastically [the Klingons], originally refused to use lots of TOS aliens [Romulans and Vulcans], intentionally made Picard completely different from Kirk, and set the whole thing 100 years in the future where the basic groundwork was the same but many of the details had changed.)
 

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Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
Here's the thing, though: The Ultimate line has outsold regular Marvel titles by a wide margin. There's more to it than just retelling stories; it lets you change characters and situations in fairly substantial ways. And apparently in ways that appeal to a lot of people.

I should note that I've never read any. And that the relative sales have started to slip, I believe.
 

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Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 
The ideal solution is to keep all that backstory (because fans like me really hate when they "reboot" a timeline and all my favorite stories no longer mean shit) and move on with fresh characters/new situations.

It both keeps the background and lets new viewers in as a starting point.

The problem with comic books is that they cant leave their staple characters behind, yet they also cant explain why Peter Parker is not pushing sixty.

Trek can -and has- leave estabished characters behind (though with varing degrees of success).

Either they need to take another jump forward timewise or a jump away distance-wise so that the same tired storylines are avoided.

Some exploring would be nice as well- getting back to the original "wagontrain to the stars" premise.
 

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Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn (Member # 1490) on :
 
The very first response on this says something along the lines of "yes because of course we know more than the people who actually produce it"
Yes we do, because we're fans just like Ira behr amd Rodenberry were and not money men hooked up to the execs.
There's no point wiping the slate but a new arc driven show would be better. Dealing with a cataclysmic event and its aftermath. The idea of a 'Dark Federation' still gives me a bone. Dozens of black galaxy-class starships emerging form a wormhole staffed by alien hating human fascists who are in service to a Khan-like genetically engineered Emperor. The real federation forced to defend the Alien races of the alpha quadrent against these spawn of a Dominion war fleeing fleet. Rodenberry's humans vs the ones we will probably become...
 

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Posted by OnToMars (Member # 621) on :
 
I don't consider a reboot to be that big of a deal. If you consider that Star Trek is one of the great stories, mythos if you prefer, or our time, one of the great works of art or literature or whatever you want to call it, than different interpretations that are mutually exclusive aren't such a big deal. Art history is littered with the same few collection of stories told over and over again in different ways. Nobody ever said, "Well, gee, I'd really like to paint the Annunciation or Christ on the Cross or such and such instance from Greek mythology, but son of a bitch, Michelangelo, David, Caravaggio, or whoever already beat me to it."

That being said, what I'd like to see is what "Enterprise" was sort of supposed to show us, though perhaps, a little earlier. What I would like to see, and I'd imagine a miniseries anthology would be the best format, is Earth's actual recovery from World War III.

Begin in a world that is more or less our own (plus a Sanctuary District or two) that undergoes a massive , devastating conflict as a result of the social ills that currently plague us and then witness - truly and rightly see - the horrors of attempting to live in a post-apocolyptic age: trying to survive in small communes, becoming nomadic in order to find enough resources to live, fighting in tremendously primitive ways over what scarce value still remains.

From there we can go to the first warp flight, James Cromwell or not, and subsequently see this shell of humanity try to regain its dignity by trying to fill the shoes of its former civilization while also attempting to live with the guilt of all of its previous ills.

Troi's line is something like, "War, poverty, disease; within fifty years those will all be gone" and Enterprise more or less picks up at the fifty year mark, skipping out on Earth's actual Reconstruction Era.

And it's not that I picture hourly episodes in which an Arab and an Isreali fight over the same old same old and by the end some kindly North American show them the virtue of getting along, or alternatively that the kindly North American very dramatically tells them that they HAVE to get along to survive. My conception is that with World War III, history and conflict would be reset in the eyes of civilization and all nations and peoples would be reduced to the same level of existence. The Isrealis are as disenfranchised from their power as the Saudis and the United States, nobody has a hold over anybody anymore, and nobody can worry about past grudges affecting today's survival anymore.

It is at this point that humanity's theme becomes that of, "Let me help."

As we watch humanity recover, we see the return of institutions, of rule of law, of the infrastructure of society and culture, and eventually, the return to space exploration and development.

And I suppose a good finishing point would be the launching of a new deep space ship tasked with true and peaceful exploration of the galaxy.

Though I'll be damned if my miniseries is going to end with Scott Bakula on the bridge of the Akiraprize.

That's what I would like to see, though I'm the kind of person that watches Lost each week hoping that they'll explore political and economic philosophy by how they organize their island society.
 

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Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
 
I'm wholly against any kind of reboot. As others have said, if you want to start over again with a clean slate then make a *new* series/franchise and don't bother slapping "Star Trek" in front of it. It would probably be more successful that way, anyway, because reboot or no reboot, people watching anything called "Star Trek" will undoubtedly hold it in comparison with what we've seen thus far.

That being said, there is a great and definite need to change things up and get new people in charge of things creatively. Berman and Braga have been running the show for nearly two decades (well, not quite that long for Braga, but still) and have gotten quite repetitive in their ideas. It can only be a good thing that they are now out. It's a shame to lose people like Manny Coto and Mike Sussman in the shuffle but, as they say on Earth, c'est la vie.

IMO, Trek's greatest asset is its history and its richly elaborate, multi-threaded universe. It should continue to be made use of. There is still history to unfold between ENT and TOS, and there is always the future after VGR. But whichever era is chosen to explore, TPTB need to not try to duplicate the style and characters of previous series. IDIC, yo.

-MMoM
 

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Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
 
I was doing some thinking today, and it occurred to me that it might be cool to do a series that dealt with civilians rather than Starfleet, perhaps settlers at a frontier colony. Brave, rugged people working together to build a world for themselves from the ground up. That sort of thing.

If you wanted to, you could bring some SF personnel in as colonial protection, and there could be potential dramatic conflict between colonists who embrace their presence and those that would rather go at it alone, free of governmental/military entanglements.

-MMoM
 

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Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
 
That certainly has potential. It might have a more Firefly feel to it. But it wouldn't really be Star Trek, even though it was set in the same universe. I'm not saying that's not a reason to do it... it would just have a comletely different dynamic to it. The exploration concept would have to be pretty much 100% planetside.
 

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Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
 
The exploration of that huge Dyson sphere they found on TNG would also provide material for a whole series, but if they did it right now someone would say they're rippping off Stargate: Atlantis...
 

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Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
 
I think a change from the "classic" Trek formula is much needed in the next series. The whole "lone starship crew exploring space" has been done to death over the decades following TOS. Much of TNG, whole seasons of VGR and even some of ENT were terribly boring because of the alien-of-the-week factor, and because there are only so many dramatic scenarios that can be played out in the course of such missions before episodes start feeling like retreads of previous ones.

DS9 dared to part from this formula at its onset, to (IMO) excellent results. As a matter of fact, the only parts of DS9 (again, IMO) that weren't good were the early episodes where they were exploring the Gamma Quadrant and meeting aliens-of-the-week. Fortunately, that sort of just went away after a while, making room for more interesting things.

TPTB: Please note that I am NOT saying I want any future series to be a copy of DS9!!

-MMoM
 

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Posted by The Ginger Beacon (Member # 1585) on :
 
After the dreadful wrap-up of DS9 in season 7, most of VOY, and the attempt to capture the climate of fear zeitgeist in seasons 2 and 3 of ENT, I reckon there is only one possible solution.

Get in touch with Krenim and make SERIES?
Currently, this seems (apart from the very late start with bits from ENT's 4th season - eg IaMD, & the Klingon forehead conundrum) to be the only thing remotely original or entertaining with the Trek label slapped on it.

But I'm new here, so I'll be quiet.

Bring on the Braxton!
 

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Posted by AH_Solid_Snake (Member # 1624) on :
 
In response to the colony builders / settlers idea put forward there is a series of novels called New Earth that deals with a similar idea, its based in the Kirk era between TMP and TWOK, possibly part of its post refit 5 year mission.

I think it has a strong base for a series, although it might reek of Battlestar Galactica ripping.

Myself i'd go for a timeframe of between TMP and TWOK and a single starship exploration again, sorry its not a more original idea. Although i do like the colonisation notion.
 

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Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
 
I've been thinking about the colonization idea and I agree it has merit/potential.

Perhaps the idea could be expanded to be colonization/establishing a new starbase.

If you remember from TOS, the starbses were on planets, not just some orbiting space station. Perhaps a colony of 50,000 could be on the planet with Starfleet personell there to run a new starbase. In orbit could be a couple of ship drydocks and a small station to transfer people between the drydocks and the surface.

More stories would have to be character driven than action oriented, however, there could be plots revolving around exploring the new planet and whatever starships arrive to make use of the starbase facility.
 

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Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 
Whatever it is, empathy, telepathy and ESP should be completely left the fuck out.

Nothing's as annoying as Troi "getting a feeling" from an image on a viewscreen of a person millions of kilometers away.
 

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Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
 
I would argue that any time Archer started grandstanding or Neelix said anything or The Traveller self-projected were all more annoying that Troi's 'I'm sensing...the total obvious.' (Was that Galaxy Quest where they break it to the one character that she never had special powers?) As far as I'm concerned read Niven's Kzin for how to do telepathy right.
 

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Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 
Unless the telepath has some extra physical organ that can sense another brain's electrical impulses and translate them into thoughts (and you'd still have a huuuge cultural/species/language barrier to overcome) I dont think it's remotely possible.

Much less from millions of KM distance.

For a universe chock full of (semi) plausale technobabble, telepathy is conviently glossed over.
Even warpdrive seems far more plausable.

Thank god DS9 (with all it's Duex Ex machina moments) never stuck in a telepath.

Only the ol' Vulcan Mind-Meld seemed sorta possible- with physical contact and it being risky (unfortunately blown right into hoo-doo katra mysticism and worse- interogation technique by the end of the TOS movies).
 

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Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
 

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Originally posted by Jason Abbadon:
Unless the telepath has some extra physical organ that can sense another brain's electrical impulses and translate them into thoughts (and you'd still have a huuuge cultural/species/language barrier to overcome) I dont think it's remotely possible.

Much less from millions of KM distance.

For a universe chock full of (semi) plausale technobabble, telepathy is conviently glossed over.
Even warpdrive seems far more plausable.

Thank god DS9 (with all it's Duex Ex machina moments) never stuck in a telepath.

Only the ol' Vulcan Mind-Meld seemed sorta possible- with physical contact and it being risky (unfortunately blown right into hoo-doo katra mysticism and worse- interogation technique by the end of the TOS movies).

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Originally posted by Pensive's Wetness:

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Originally posted by Jason Abbadon:
Unless the telepath has some extra physical organ that can sense another brain's electrical impulses and translate them into thoughts (and you'd still have a huuuge cultural/species/language barrier to overcome) I dont think it's remotely possible.

Much less from millions of KM distance.

For a universe chock full of (semi) plausale technobabble, telepathy is conviently glossed over.
Even warpdrive seems far more plausable.

Thank god DS9 (with all it's Duex Ex machina moments) never stuck in a telepath.

Only the ol' Vulcan Mind-Meld seemed sorta possible- with physical contact and it being risky (unfortunately blown right into hoo-doo katra mysticism and worse- interogation technique by the end of the TOS movies).

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