Question: Would Excelsior have been a better prequel concept than Enterprse?
I say no. However, I *do* think it would have been successful if anyone had pitched it as a TV-movie miniseries.
Who says yes?
Mark
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
First off, it wouldn't really be a prequel, would it?
Secondly, just basing a show on the USS Excelsior, Captain Hikaru Sulu commanding, leaves a lot of work to do. It's unlikely they'd adhere too much to the cast as established in ST:TUC - Rand too old, can't act; Valtane died of retconitis - they could maybe bring Tuvok into it (but how popular a character was he in Voyager?).
So, first you have to put together the cast, and there's all sorts of ways that could go wrong. Takei is old, his action days are behind him (that said, Patrick Stewart is only about 5 years younger, and the action scenes in Nemesis didn't trouble him at 60) so they'd probably have a younger hunkier (or sexier, needn't be male after all) first officer to provide sex appeal.
Then there's the plot. I still maintain that very little that's new was being done by Trek in its last few years, so. . .
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
The idea itself is not inherently better. And the same people would have been in charge of it. So I don't see why it would have been any different.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Does anyone think it's time for another Trek to take place in a space station? After all everyone says that Star Trek cliched, but I think its the premise that's cliched (ie ships zipping throught space). This time it could be a Federation constructed station like a starbase and maybe without an ubership attached to it.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
All due respect to Mr. Takei, but if "Flashback" is anything to go by I don't think he'd make a good lead.
But ultimately this all boils down to taste in set design, I bet. As Lee says, there's no show just waiting to leap out of Star Trek VI or "Flashback." It would have to be totally invented from the ground up, so all we've really got to make our decision is whether we would want X years of movie-era set design.
Also, I guess, if I were asked to choose an era, sight-unseen, I'd probably choose Enterprise (or even, as Sternbach talked about, some period even earlier). There isn't any particularly new ground for Sulu to cover. His show would have all the pitfalls of a prequel (can't introduce anything too novel without breaking continuity) with none of the benefits Enterprise had (the ability to go back and introduce core Trek concepts).
Now, having said all that, I like movie-era design just fine, and complaints about his ability to fill the lead role aside I'm sure I'd be willing to give Takei the benefit of the doubt for awhile. But anyway an Excelsior series never had much to recommend it, in my view.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mars Needs Women: This time it could be a Federation constructed station like a starbase and maybe without an ubership attached to it.
Exactly what is that offering though? Part of the appeal of DS9 was the fact that Quark, Kira, Garak and Odo weren't Starfleet. They could do things that Starfleet officers could have. And for however much they were intergrated into the "gee wizz Starfleet" dudes as the show went on they still provided an alternative point of view when necessary, such as in "The Reckoning" and the like.
A show set on a Federation Starbase would, to me, involve Admiral McBeardy talking to Lieutenant Sensiblehair about which ships were due to arrive and whether they'd need any maintanence work.
(And to be fair to the Defiant, it wasn't really an uber-ship. Sure it had Kewl guns and a cloak, but that was about it. It was quite often outclassed by enemy forces. We're talking about a ship that could tear through half a dozen Jem Hadar fighters, not one that could take on the entire Romulan Empire.)
Posted by Toadkiller (Member # 425) on :
I think what most people like about a "Sulu show" is that it would be set during the TOS-movie era. This is, arguably, the most popular time frame for trek.
We had most of the gee-wiz stuff of TNG, but with the classic look of TOS. But, I think that the reason it is thought of as looking the best is that 1) it had movie level budgets, 2) It was the only game in town as far as Star Trek goes.
Captain Saavik of the NCC-1701-B would likely be just as popular, with a third actress playing the part. Which would eliminate the age factor inherent with George. Again though the problem is the writing. Unless the studio was willing to employ actual sci-fi literate writers then we're probably better off watching "Lost".
Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
When ST III was made, the idea was that Excelsior woudl take the place of Enterprise, but it was unpopular with fans, so we got the Enterprise-A instead. Gotta wonder how the follow-up movies and TNG would have been different if Kirk got Excelsior at the end of IV.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
If the old post IV DC comics were any indication, not really that much.
Mark
Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
I may have been less opposed to an Excelsior series than I was to Enterprise. But I agree with Sol System that there would have been no way making this era into a series because there is hardly any new ground for stories, characters or just for set design.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
Well, why not a Next-Next Generation? We know the pitfalls of trying to avoid continuation problems with TOS & TNG, so let's move forward a century. How about intergalactic adventures. (We never really found out what happened to the Kelvins). Perhaps even a Trek based on some of the timeship tech. You get to goof around with history (without "discovering" Nazi planets or Gansta planets) and can have episodes set during ALL the previous series venues. (Think: "Trials & Tribble-ations")
I don't think Trek is dead. But I think its going through a Phoenix phase and needs to be reborn into a new format, not just a new setting for the same old Trek.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
So... Forrest Gump in space? The problem with a time-traveling Trek is that:
A) You can only have our heros drop into "classic" Trek moments so often before it gets really old and stretches credibility.
B) You can only have our heros be the ones who "really" made everything work out for the other era crew so many times before it gets really old and stretches credibility.
C) You can only have our heros have an adventure whilst simultaneously barely avoid damaging the timeline so many times before it gets really old and stretches credibility.
Now, wherever I said "so many times", insert the phrase "3 or 4 times" and we suddenly have a series comprised of 12 shows.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
I didn't say it had to constantly interact with classic trek shows. I would not do more than 1 or 2 for each setting/series. My point is that it could be advanced tech with classic props that could tell stories that do not involve ANY of the previous series crews.
Kirk, Picard, & Sisko were not the ONLY people that "saved the Federation". There had to be other ships & crews that didn't just show up to blow up. I think these would make for good storylines. Say a new clue pops up about the loss of the U.S.S. Abaddon in the Lesbos sector 50 years ago. The TimeTrekkers could go investigate etc.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bernd: I may have been less opposed to an Excelsior series than I was to Enterprise. But I agree with Sol System that there would have been no way making this era into a series because there is hardly any new ground for stories, characters or just for set design.
Oh, I disagree.
(Man, this feels like deja'vu) About 11 years ago (before the release of Generations and the premier of Voyager) I toyed around with a series concept dealing with a female captain of the newly christined Enterprise-B. I even came up with plot ideas for about 2 seasons worth of episodes.
Looking through the Chronology book helps set the tone for the times during Sulu's era as Excelsior captain.
Sulu took command in 2290. The first mission (cataloging planets and gasious anomalies... whoopee...) lasted 3 years, with ST:VI set in 2293.
We don't know how many missions Sulu commanded Excelsior. But let's focus on the time between 2290 and 2311. An Excelsior series could have easily been set anywhere within that time period.
2290 Kang, Kor and Koloth pursuid the criminal known as the Albino. What crimes did he commit? Did they involve any activities within the Federation? What about unexplored space near Klingon and Federation territories?
Curzon Dax was alive and well during this time. in 2289 he conducted talks with the Klingons. Did he handle any other negotiations or talks during this time? Jadzia and Dax weren't joined until 2367, leaving this time wide open for Curzon to be a recurring character with much development.
Klingon sleeper ship T'Ong was launched. At this time tensions were still high between the Klingons and the Federation. Was this the only sleeper ship launched?
2292 Klingons develop a ship that can fire while cloaked. Tensions are still high and could provide a host of stories with Klingons as bad guys.
2293 Events of ST:VI. Tuvok assigned to Excelsior.
Despite the Khitomer accords, there could be plenty of disgruntled Kliongs and Federation opposed to the treaty. Small border skirmishes could still occur. Additionally, humanitarian stories could be told dealing with the salvation of Qo'noS.
Spock becomes an ambassador. What treaties did he mediate?
The Romulans are still a villanous force at this time, despite their begnign actions during ST:VI
2309 Cardassians offer assistance to the people of Bajor. We do not know when first contact with the Cardassians occured. We do not know what kind of feelings existed between the Cardassians and Federation. We do know that at some point after the first contact the Federation and Cardassians engaged in a prolonged border war. How long? We don't know.
2311 Tomed incident. What was the Tomed incident? Was it a ship? Was it a colony? All we do know is the Romulans killed thousands of Federation citizens. Obviously tensions were high before this point. After Tomed, the Romulans had no contact with the Federation until 2364.
Figures of the time Most all of the TOS cast, including Saavik and Sarek Curzon Dax Guinan Tuvok Demora Sulu Mark Jameson (later Adm. Mark Jameson from TNG's "Too Short a Season)
Undeveloped/Underdeveloped Aliens (Presuming ENT never happened) Andorians Gorn Tholians Trill Society Tellarites Orions
Unanswered TOS questiones/Whatever happened to... The Melkots The Medusans The Doomsday Weapon The First Federation The Guardian of Forever The Whale Probe The Kelvans The Andromedan androids on Mudd's Planet The Talosians The Horta Eminiar and Vendikar Yonada (TOS: For the World is Hollow...) Where did the Preservers go and why did they do what they did? When was first contact with the Cardassians? With Bajor?
What, we can't have a series because there is no new ground for set design? That seems like a weak excuse. TNG and DS-9 didnt change their sets after being established, yet both series ran 7 years.
On the other hand, what about all these other alien cultures? Surely they have designs we haven't seen, such as the inside of a Gorn ship, a Tholian planet, etc...
No new ground for characters? Might as well stop making any Star Trek then. New characters can be created and developed all the time and established characters could have been fleshed out. What all do we really know about Sulu, Saavik, Sarek, Curzon Dax, Uhura, etc...
Say what you will about Sulu and the adventures of the Excelsior; there still is fertile ground for stories set between the TOS movie era and TNG season 1. It just takes imagination, quality writing, and a passion/care for what has already been established.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Fuck Sulu- they'd have been better off making Captain Harriman into a strong lead, then using several of the loose ends you brought up to establish a plot for the series.
...though no one knows anything more about the Preservers by TNG, and a lot of TOS issues are better off dead-The androids and anything "Mudd" related in particular. That Yonada thing too- skip it.
Posted by Da_bang80 (Member # 528) on :
Why make the series about the Feds? I'd like to see a seies about a Klingon captain for once. Maybe a Qud class BOP during the Pacification War or something. Or maybe a female Romulan Tal-Shiar captain who has a thing for Klingon hookers. Interspecies Lesbian action.
Posted by Wee Bairns (Member # 1324) on :
As big of a Sulu fan as I am, I'd rather see an Enterprise-B series than an Excelsior series. You could completely remove every character from Generations if you wanted to, introduce a cast of unknown characters (maybe keep Demora in there, Harriman too if Ruckman is up to the task) and the series would still be set in that golden heyday giving us TOS movie tech and settings with the ability to show more. Mind you, I'd probaly feel bad for the actors who would be wearing those gorgeous-but-heavy movie uniforms week after week.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
Why feel sorry for them? They can make money for the rest of their lives going to conventions and signing photos. "Yes, I was redshirted crewman #2 in that episode where I delivered my line of 'Aye, aye captain' with Shakespearean demeanor."
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Ever been to a con with some no name as guest star? I was commenting on it a few years back with some older guy that turned out to be Jeremy Brett (Boba Fett) nad he agreed, but it was just "weekend money".
Aaron Eisenberg (a gret guy to hang out with) walked through a show several times talking with me and no one else knew who he was....imagine the strangness of being one of those "red shirts".
I only knew Casey Biggs by his voice- he's got blonde hair offscreen. Also very cool to talk with though- that "Damar" voice is aawesome and really how he talks.
Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
There's definitely a lot to explore in the Sulu era. But we have to distinguish what fans would like to see and what the producers can and want to do. Much more than in Enterprise, the style of a Sulu series would have been predetermined, as would the basic setting of the series. I doubt that B&B or anyone of the creative staff would have seen the Sulu series as the challenge that Enterprise obviously was to them.
Well, the fourth season of Enterprise proves that exploring and explaining the known universe is a good (even redeeming) idea, but this was done only after preparing new ground in the preceding three seasons. I would have loved all of Enterprise to be like that, and I may have enjoyed a (short?) Sulu series along these lines too, but it doesn't have enough potential for seven seasons.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
quote:Originally posted by Da_bang80: Why make the series about the Feds? I'd like to see a seies about a Klingon captain for once. Maybe a Qud class BOP during the Pacification War or something. Or maybe a female Romulan Tal-Shiar captain who has a thing for Klingon hookers. Interspecies Lesbian action.
Setting up a series that appeals primarially with a small, core/nitch audience may be a cool idea, but it won't have a broad enough appeal to pull in the viewers and ratings.
The majority of the people are going to watch a series they can relate to. Sadly, the majority of people aren't going to relate to Klingons or Romulans as the main cast.
This is the same reasoning why we here in the United States have programs that focus on Americans. We don't have any programminmg where Japanese or other foreign nationalities are the main focus of the cast. People are so myopic they can't identify or relate to anything that is too different from themselves.
This is the same reasoning why in Trek all the lead role captains have been human and why humans make up the majority of the cast/crew. It's also why the majority of the starships and plantes have been named after American ships, people or places with strong historic connections to our Anglo-Saxon/Roman/Greek heritage. It's what people know and understand. You name a ship "Gettysburg" and you don't have to explain it.
Posted by Da_bang80 (Member # 528) on :
The series could always explain a few things, like Klingon History 101.
I always liked the Klingons way more than those wussy feds.
Fed Captain: "OOH AHH! I'm a big fat wussy! Let's go explore and make friends!
Klingon Captain: "Let's kill everybody and get drunk."
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Da_bang80: Klingon Captain: "Let's kill everybody and get drunk."
If yuou ever had a friend like that, you'd know it gets old real fast. Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
quote:Originally posted by Da_bang80: The series could always explain a few things, like Klingon History 101.
I always liked the Klingons way more than those wussy feds.
Fed Captain: "OOH AHH! I'm a big fat wussy! Let's go explore and make friends!
Klingon Captain: "Let's kill everybody and get drunk."
But thats what Star Trek is about! At least to me it is. But beyond that, its about the human condition, and its a little hard to explore that if you don't even have humans. I'd much rather watch the same old show than a show thats not only the opposite of why I like Star Trek, but would compleatly alienate me as the viewer.
That and the make-up costs would be huge.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
It's be cool to see some dramatic moment from both sides. They could do the Tomed Incident anthology i one season by focusing on the Romulans one week and the Feds the next- if done well, the viewers would grow to like characters from both sides (and hate some too!) and the season would build to one climatic battle- ending with most of the characters deaths and a bitter peace established in the final episode.
I'd love to see a Captain just say "enough" and retire at the season's end.
It would break the mold a bit and give a real culture to the Romulans- like how DS9 remade the Cardassians from TNG's lamest new aliens into Trek's most complex species.
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
That would, indeed, be interesting.
Posted by Da_bang80 (Member # 528) on :
I like that idea. Instead of having a whole show dedicated to the crew of one starship, make a show about one ship exploring some wierd region of space that only the best treknobabble can explain. The nex week the show would have the crew of a warship fighting in a war. Then maybe a show about the commander of a starbase dealing with some catastrophe. Kinda like an anthology of short stories in Star Trek or something.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Er...more like the show "24" than that. Each season would be it's own contained story instead of week-to-week.
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
You could set a season on DS9 and call it 26 Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
It's sooo sad that I got that joke immeadeately.
So sad.
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
I'm the one that thought of it in the first place
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
DS9 having 26 hour days? Lame jokes?
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
I made the joke in the first place, so while you got it, I obviously have to have had the useless trivia just floating there for me to make a joke about it at the mear mention of Star Trek and the show 24
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Ahh...I've never actually seen 24 though. I just hear others talkin about it now and then. Seems pretty farfetched to me.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
Jason, like you have said yourself, you need to get out more man....
As for the show, the eps I caught seemed okay, but I am not a big fan of Sutherland....
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I liked him a lot in Dark City.
Back to topic:
While I hate te calls for a "dark gritty fall of the Federation series, they could make an incredible Trek series where the Klingon and/or Romulan empires crumbled and the federation had to deal with dozens of small factional governments rising from the wreckage (remember that both empires have many member species worlds within their borders) and the crime, refugees and blackmarket weapons that stem from an empire's collapse.
Kind of a parable for the former Soviet Union, they could play to modern concerns about missing WMD (and in Trek, that's pretty darn serious), immigration and sentient's rights.
Trek started out by showcasing flaws in society with a sci-fi premise (as did Outer Limits, Twilight Zone and a score of other classics). It could work today, if handled well... Mabye have the show centered around a Diplomat and his team as they work off various starships (that would keep the charcaters fresh) and travel from planet to planet resolving disputes and trying to avoid war.
They could even keep the general Trek cast structure- the (strong character) Diplomat runs things (in the captain's role), has a right hand man (a starfleet commander as liason) two or three diplomatic specialists (I'd go all out and make them three diffrent species- mabye Vulcan, Andorian and Telerite to showcase the founding races) and two or three security officers (two starfleet and one independant to get around regulations when required and to have shady contacts). The traveling "conflict resolution team" would allow them to shocase unsen worlds both in and out of Federation territory, new races and, by traveling on whatever starship is available, give the viewers a look at all the purdy ships firsthand- mabye they could limit it to three ships total- that way they could introduce intresting secondary charcaters (like DS9 did). -mabye even a strained shipboard romance or two. Opinons?
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
Face it, Jason REALLY wants Andorian Porn.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Ohh yeah- women with handlebars: what's not to love?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I'd put it in and around postwar Cardassia, myself.
But as much as I dream of my ideal Star Trek: West Wing series, the problem with the basic concept is how interiorized and isolating it is. I can't imagine the made-up sci-fi politics audience being a very large one. The problem is, as I see it, that while it is the limitations of Star Trek (its canon, if you wish) that make it popular, they're also what's driven it to a halt. I guess. I mean, if you want to tell really innovative, out-there science fiction stories the Star Trek universe is not going to be where you want to set it. Star Trek is a 1960s future. And yet, at the same time, it is that concentration of stuff, the canon, that made Star Trek popular. So a reboot or a reimagining seems futile, since it is all those accumulated events and characters that are your main draw. I think. In other words, Star Trek doesn't really seem premise-driven, in the way that, say, Battlestar Galactica was.
However, having said that, the idea of a cohesive background isn't really derivable from the original series itself, now that I think about it. The original fans had to imagine most of the details themselves, and it was later that that more detail-oriented attitude came to be reflected in the actual productions. So I don't know.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Dan Simmons had an idea of "getting the crew out of the tin can" wherein they had the option of altering their bodies for space flight (though not FTL). It was bold, innovative and totally not Trek.
Still, it could work as a big leap into the future (Enterprise J anyone?).
Trek's big failing (if you can call it that) is that so little progress has been made in what humans are.
I mean, they still age, get diseases and die just like we do- no real advancements there at all- no virtual afterlife or knowledge storage of experiences, no matter regeneration as a medical tool (though we saw it as a cop-out in several episodes, transporters should be able to instantly heal anyone that it holds a pattern for- only their recent memories would be lost) lots of shit would be radically diffrent.
Not only that, but many human colonies would likely have become non-human after decades of exposure to alien bacteria, radiation and genetic diseases native to their new world (this might yet explain the Romulans not being 100% vulcan in biology).
Heck, if even Trek's alien races were non-humaoid (like farscape's but moreso with regards to motivations) it would breathe new life into the franchise.
Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
What comes to mind for me, is TNG, set in the movie era, with the Excelsior instead of the 'D'. probably the same writers and stories. The only real difference I would expect to see in an excensior series would be more 'Wrath of Khan' type, sequel stories.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I cant agree- a LOT of TNG was dependeant on Picard's character- Sulu as the star would have yielded very diffrent results.
Though I agree we would have seen the inevitible "sequel stories".
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
An arguably much worse series, since I can't imagine Sulu's character being anywhere near as good as Picard's.
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Trek's big failing (if you can call it that) is that so little progress has been made in what humans are.
That's always been one of the defining parts of Trek - that humans may be "better" but they are still recognisably human. You change things too much as you'd have the same disassosation of empathy that you'd get with a truelly alien species. In fact, the one time Trek veared towards making humans too different (early TNG, where no-one got angry and the cold had been cured), the writers realised what a mistake it was and pulled right back so we had shouting and people being sick (which may seem like a small point, but it shows how we, as an audience, are more comfortable watching people who can get a cold just like us.)
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
It's just a hamper when so little changed between TOS and TNG- they got story ploys like Holodecks and Replicators, but very little real changes in humanity. Heck, a lot of what we think of as "re-writing continuity" (nanotech for example) should have been a given with TNG's tech level. Everyone "Ohhhs and Ahhhs" Wesley's little Nanite experiment, but Dr Crusher can replace Picard's arm and undo all the Borg's mods as "simple microsurgery"?
TNG does indeed seem to regress a bit after first season into more dramatic(and recognizable) modes of behavior (corruption withing Starfleet being a tired old bag).
Then we see Earth on DS9 and get a good blend of both the realism of human flaws and the whole "Utopian Society" og Roddenberry's vision.
If they do another "leap forward", they'll definitely need to take more risks iwth regards to human advancment. Shows like Farscape pulled off very believable "human" characters even when they were puppetts, so some starfleet personell with genemods (like from Pacifica, for example) would be very possible.
Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
Uhm. I don't think that Farscape is exactly the best example of how believably characters can be depicted. People who get along one day and who are on the verge of killing one another the next day aren't what I think of as realistic. The new BSG suffers from the same problem, although here is at least a basic consensus among the characters.
Generally I believe that multilateral and alternating character conflicts are too often just an excuse for not having a strong enough plot thread. Such as in the already classic situation when the ship is under attack, and the people on board have nothing better to do than continuing with their petty quarrels. I am glad that Trek (for the most part) showed crews as a unity, although Voyager could have had a bit more of the Maquis conflict.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Farscape worked that way because you had a bunch of people crammed together by circumstance into an almost family like atmosphere for months on end (running away on Moya).
Trek's characters should be more professionsl that that, naturally.
Farscape showed how well puppetry can make non-humanoid aliens...real. Even the puppett/alien of the week on Farscale was more believable than Geordi's character seven years and four movies!
Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
That may be because comical or villainous characters (also those played by real actors) are created in a way to first take away some of their basic credibility, only to add overall consistency in their unusual behavior. In Star Trek we usually don't have such extremes. Decent human characters like they are common in Trek are more demanding in my view.
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