Just watched the rerun of "Legacy" on G4. I had some questions & thought we could have a good-natured debate. Anyway...
1. The silly little line about Picard meeting Tasha when Tasha's ship came to someone's rescue, "as had mine" (Picard's quote). Apparently this small portion of dialogue had later caused quite a bit of confusion when it was contradicted by "All Good Things..." and to further complicate matters, people started looking into this line as proof that Picard had a "missing" ship command between the Stargazer and the Enterprise-D.
The thing is, at the time of the episode, the writers clearly meant the "as had mine" line to refer to the Ent-D. However, since it was later contradicted, I'm not saying that people are wrong to think JLP had another ship. It's just that he never said ONE WORD about this mystery vessel, yet blabbered all the time about the Stargazer. Also, the "NCC-7100" printed on the ready-room Stargazer model DOES NOT mean that it was the mystery ship, IMHO. I mean, c'mon, TWO Constellation class ship commands?
It's my opinion that to make logical sense of the line, Picard probably meant that he happened to be aboard a ship, perhaps as an observer until getting his new command, and said ship happened to meet Tasha's ship. He never said he was captain of the ship after all.
2. The Turkana colonists constantly refer to their weapons as "phasers" and that they are all of older design. The movie-style phasers are clearly seen to prove this, but they also carry weapons that look similar to the Klingon "pain-sticks." (Sorry, wish I had screencaps to show...Lee?) Are these supposed to be the equivalent of movie-era phaser rifles?
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
1. I think we've all wondered what Picard was doing between the loss of the Stargazer and his command of the Enterprise. I think it was a fairly good chunk of time. I don't see any reason why he couldn't have had starship commands ... he could be sentimental about the Stargazer because it was his first command, and one he feels guilt about (the circumstances surrounding her loss).
Regardless or what he did after being aquitted at his court-martial and gaining command of Enterprise, I agree that he was most likely on a starship -- as a passenger -- when the disaster happened. I think he probably abreviated some of the story for Tasha's sister.
2. Maybe they're privately-manufactured phasers, intended for civilian -- rather than military -- purchasers.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dukhat: The thing is, at the time of the episode, the writers clearly meant the "as had mine" line to refer to the Ent-D.
Nuh-uh. Because in the same conversation, a sentence or two later, he says "I knew then that I wanted her on my next command" (or some such). Thus, the writers either intended it to be a Stargazer reference, and didn't realize at the time the problem with the time-frame involved, or else some other ship commanded or ridden in by JLP. But not the E-D.
--Jonah
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Picard may have served as a trainer for starfleet or as an admiral's liason officer (Hnason's?) for a while...probbaly while Enterprise was finishing trials and testing.
Possibly even overseeing a refit schedule on the ageing Constilation class (though that might have proved traumatic).
We've also seen specialists from all branches of the fleet show up as experts on specific missions- mabye Picard was on some diplomatic gig between ships.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Redacted on account of I misread a comment. Only I don't have anything to put in here instead. Don't we know how many years there were between the destruction of the Stargazer and "Encounter at Farpoint"?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I dont think so, really.
It's never made clear- presumably a few though, for Picard to have so completely blocked out the details.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
If the Encyclopedia is to be believed, the Stargazer was lost in 2355 and the E-D was launched in 2363.
Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
Heh... I tried to tackle this problem with my very first post on this forum...
Whatever Picard did, it was apparently something so remarkable that it gave him the command of Starfleet flagship, despite the fact that he spent previous 20 years as the captain of old, underpowered vessel
(My theory is that he was busy getting on the first name basis with as many admirals as he could )
Posted by FawnDoo (Member # 1421) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kazeite: (My theory is that he was busy getting on the first name basis with as many admirals as he could )
Picard did seem to be on friendly terms with a lot of the brass, didn't he? :-) Perhaps he got a staff assignment at Starfleet Headquarters for a while after the Stargazer incident. I mean, even though he was cleared of any wrongdoing the fact remains he was court-martialed for loss of a ship: that might have counted against him for a while in terms of commands being assigned.
It is quite a meteoric rise though...from captain of a rather undistinguished old ship to commanding the biggest, best and most celebrated ship in the Federation. If the encyclopedia is right and there is an 8 year gap and if he didn't have another ship in the meantime, he's got to have done something to get his name noticed.
After all Starfleet is a very competitive environment: Hansen was worried that Riker was going to look like he was standing still in BoBW and wanted Picard to kick him into a captain's chair before he was overtaken by the next generation of command-level officers coming up the ranks. No reason why that wouldn't have been the same in Picard's pre-Enterprise days.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Isn't it claimed in "Measure of a Man" that Starfleet holds a court-martial or a court of inquiry after any ship is lost, as a matter of procedure? I think that's real naval policy, even, in many navies, though I can find only a brief Wikipedia reference to back me up.
But anyway the investigation wouldn't count against him, or rather wouldn't count against him any more than losing a ship in the first place did.
Posted by FawnDoo (Member # 1421) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: But anyway the investigation wouldn't count against him, or rather wouldn't count against him any more than losing a ship in the first place did.
I think you're right - the court martial cleared him of any wrongdoing, but he still lost the ship and I think that would stay in the minds of people at command for a while. This might account for his 8 year gap between Stargazer and Enterprise: perhaps he was working his way back up the list of Captains until he was assigned a ship again?
We have seen evidence that Starfleet keeps a close eye on its personnel and can even "blacklist" someone and essentially bar them from ever getting a command of their own: doesn't Sisko inform Worf of something to that effect after he destroyed a decloaking Klingon transport full of civilians? (for once the "episode title" circuit in my brain has failed me, sorry) I am sure there is a line in that episode that runs along the lines of "Basically this means you'll not have a command of your own in the future."
Okay so Picard wasn't barred, but maybe he had to work a little after the loss of his ship...get back a little trust, a little backing from Starfleet Command? What do you think?
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
I thought the line about Worf never getting a command came in that ep where he abandoned an attempt to rescue a Cardassian defector in favour of saving Jadzia. . ?
For some reason the DVD caps I have, courtesy of TrekPulse, aren't very good. They might as well have been taken off a VHS copy! So much so that I don't even really recall identifying the colonists' weapons. I'll have a look tonight.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Missing years, get's the best ship, familiar with Starfleet brass...
Maybe he was in... Section 31! Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Is that really so far-fetched? It would explain why he's never spoken about the command.
But I've always been under the impression that this line refers to a 'tweener command. As has been stated... he had to be doing *something* important.
Posted by FawnDoo (Member # 1421) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lee: I thought the line about Worf never getting a command came in that ep where he abandoned an attempt to rescue a Cardassian defector in favour of saving Jadzia. . ?
You're quite right: it comes from an episode called "Change of Heart". Sorry about that - for some reason the one with the Klingon transport ("Rules of Engagement") is the one that is stuck in my head.
Sisko does say that the incident with the defector will be entered in Worf's permanent record and even if he won't go through a court-martial (because it was a secret mission) he wouldn't get a command of his own...which points to Starfleet having a long memory for people who screw up.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Seeing as we have DVDs now - wasn't there some sort of tiny ship seen in Legacy entering the planet's atmosphere?
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
Picard is hardly the cloak-and-daggery type S31 wants.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
You might want to qualify that. He seems quite adept at the "dress up in nice black ninja pyjamas and infiltrate Cardassian biogenic weapons labs" cloaks-and-daggery bits, but less so at the sneaky, underhand, moral-grey-area "developing a cloaking device when they're actually banned" cloak-and-daggery bits.
Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
Which seems to be exactly the type of stuff Section 31 excels...
Unless Section 31 in 2350s was gentler, kindler, "your mission, should you choose to accept it"-like, and not "let's develop a biogenic weapon guys!"-like Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I think the ship that was seen at the beginning of Legacy was the one that crashed. We only see it for a second and it's very small. I think it's been stated by someone on the staff of the show that it was just something existing they used, nothing new. Possibly the same ship design that beamed sexy terrorist girl off the Ent D in "Starship Mine".
Posted by The Ginger Beacon (Member # 1585) on :
If Picard was had a skill that Section 31 could use, I see no reason why they wouldn't try and use him.
Bashir was tested, and despit his moral attitude, he was accepted (he didn't join them, but it isn't the sort of thing where you post them a copy of your CV and wait for them to get back to you).
What I'm getting at, is that S31 finds the right person for the job, recruits them and tells them only what they need to know, and that the very fate of the federation is relying on them succeding. If JLP was working for them, he may never have found out about the full extent of their nasty plans. There is also the fact that they used people, in the same way they used Bashir in Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges.
And don't forget, Sloan was not the only S31 agent - there could have been other recruiters who were better at the job than him.
But, even though I don't buy JLP ever being in S31, it's a neat idea.
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
I think you guys are trying to stretch S31 too far out. There is a Starfleet Intelligence division that could handle the *legal* cloak-and-dagger stuff. S31 was created to do things "by any means necessary". That being said, I'm not sure I could even picture Picard doing things for Starfleet Intelligence that he couldn't talk about, but it's another possibility.
B.J.
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
Perhaps he did something (or over 22-odd years somethings) on the Stargazer that secured him command of the next Enterprise and there just wasn't one ready for him when the Stargazer was lost. He need not have been doing anything special between the two.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Yah, but you can't just be sitting on your butt for 8 years, then boom, be captain of the flagship.
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
Well, he likely would have been doing something, but it need not be something so amazing that it landed him the flagship.
He may have spent some of the time getting to know the Galaxy class and the Enterprise itself. The ship (according to the Technical Manual) left drydock for the first time in 2358 for its first tests and the Galaxy two years before that.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
"All Good Things" establishes that Picard had never been on the ship before arriving to take command.
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
Does it rule out time spent on the Galaxy? It seems like a realy bad idea to give command of one of Starfleet's newest ships to someone who knows next to nothing about them.
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
Picard did say he hadn't stepped foot on a Galaxy before, but he also said he's familiar with the blueprints and the specs.
Posted by JupiterStation (Member # 1811) on :
Maybe Picard was doing some kinda of diplomatic "trouble shooting" job, kinda going all over the Federation and such, helping to establish good relations with first contact civilizations,putting out fires in diplomacy hot spots. That sort of position would have him traveling on various starships, and would explain his image as diplomat and skilled negotiator. As well as gaining favor with the Admiralty
Kinda like what Kirk was doing in one of those Original series novels about the years after the first five year mission, but before the V'ger...
Posted by RLF (Member # 1396) on :
Re: Picard going from "rustbucket" Stargazer to "look at the shine on this here flagship" Enterprise.
While Picard did make a wry comment to Scotty about his old command being "old and underpowered," the reactions of his officers when boarding USS Stargazer is rather telling. Most of them seemed to respect the ship and its place in history. LaForge was deep in awe-struck hero-worship territory. Not the responses of people who are unimpressed with some obsolete hulk.
It is possible that Picard's achievements commanding USS Stargazer at least put him on the list of possible captains for a Galaxy-class starship. If nothing else, his record made it clear that he could keep a crew functioning over a long period in deep space.
Re: What Picard was up to between starships.
Well, he seemed very familiar with Klingon culture, language, and politics towards the middle of TNG's run. Maybe he spent a little time in the Empire?
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Everyone seems so keen to remember that Picard lost the Stargazer, but I haven't seen any mention of what he did to save the crew. It was evidently so effective they named it after him and taught it at the Academy.
Remember also that April was a roving Ambassador-at-Large, as recounted in "The Counterclock Incidnet", and Picard was, too, in no less than two alternate/illusory futures.
We know Crusher requested the Enterprise, and presumably Riker did, too, as Picard seemed to be uncomfortable with Beverly there, and didn't know Riker at all. He tapped (no, not like that) Tasha, but seems to have mostly gone with Starfleet's judgement on crewing the Enterprise -- so he wasn't hand-picking a crew. He might have been a part of the diplomatic team that helped put together the first Cardassian treaty. He wouldn't have needed a ship for that. I personally think there was enough stuff around the end of the Cardassian Wars to keep him busy long enough for Starfleet to finish getting the Enterprise ready.
--Jonah
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Didn't Picard have a whole angry encounter with Riker about Riker's attitudes towards a captain's prerogative in "Encounter at Farpoint"? Therefore implying a certain degree of familiarity with his record?
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Well, we later learn -- I think in Pegasus -- that Picard DID in fact hand-pick Riker from scores of officers applying for the Enterprise's XO position. The encounter over Riker's attitude towards COs beaming to planets seemed to be Picard's final test for his XO, and I think Picard mentions at some point that if Riker had caved on it, Picard would've stopped the orders and sent Riker back to the Hood.
I don't know how much latitude Picard had in picking the ship's senior staff -- remember, he also picked LaForge (who I thought had been a member of the Hood's crew, but apparently not), and of course, as mentioned, Yar -- but it seems Starfleet gives some free-reign to COs for some at least some of their staffing needs.
Given the frequently changing CEO position, it seems unlikely Picard had much of a say in that (although perhaps he picked LaForge for that, then had to wait as Starfleet kept assigning officers). Worf might've been a political apointment by Starfleet Command -- a Klingon on the Federation flagship? I don't think Picard would've requested Beverly Crusher, given their past, and there's also no evidence either way on Data or Troi (although perhaps Troi requested the Enterprise after learning Riker had gotten the job).
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Oh -- I think the most possible explanation for Picard's post-Stargazer assignment would be some sort of diplomatic trouble-shooting post. It makes sense -- you wouldn't want someone who would shoot first in command of the flagship, and since you'd most likely be sending that same flagship in for trouble-shooting on sensitive issues (how many times did the Enterprise actually "Boldly go exploring", anyway?), you'd want someone with a proven track record.
I'm not suggesting Picard went directly from the Stargazer to trouble-shooting, no, hardly, but he could have started negotiation for Federation Archeologists to have access to off-world planets, a position where he would've been able to enjoy his hobby and at the same time demonstrate his diplomatic abilities. We've often seen Picard mediate disputes between two races, and I would say Picard has a background in diplomacy.
Also -- I don't put too much weight in Picard seeming to know all of these Admirals. We know he's put off his own promotion to flag rank several times -- these could be old classmates of his, as opposed to respecting him for some possibly imagined heroics in his pre-Enterprise life (and perhaps old classmates of his were the ones who put him in Enterprise, I think he was until Tyrla Scott, the youngest person to make captain ever?), alternatively, wouldn't every Admiral want to be on a first-name basis with the captain of the symbol of the Federation and Starfleet?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Mabye he went to Romulous, knocked up some Romulan babe, she gave birth to Shinzon nad croaked during labor. The baby got shipped off to work the mines and to be potential blackail fodder for Picard, caught some radiation-based rapid ageing sickness and was just told he was a clone.
Dr. Crusher could have been wrong about that last part- god knows she's an idiot most of the time.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Here's a little detail of Picard's story to Ishara: Doesn't he pretty much say that he saw Tasha do her hero thing on the planet? If he was down on the planet's surface, there would have had to have been some reason for him to be down there. I can't remember if he gave the background on why the ships were going on the rescue mission. Was there a diplomatic incedent of some kind? If there was, I can accept the fact that he was not the CO of the ship, but merely on board in some kind of ambassadorial capacity. But if it was just something more action-based, why would he be on the planet during the action were he not a member of the crew?
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Aban:
The impression I had was that he could've been on this random ship as a passenger, being taken from some distant location to Earth, where he would take command of Enterprise (he might not have even known what ship he was being given). In his capacity as passenger, when this disaster struck, he volunteered his services to the captain of the ship he was on, and found himself coordinating some sort of action on the planet's surface.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Could be. It's not as if we've never seen Picard in civilian situations before. I just find it less plausible that he would refer to such a ship as "his", or that a high ranking Starfleet officer would be traveling on a civilian vessel. I suppose it's possible that he was being transported on a Starfleet craft with a lower-ranking CO, and when the distaster struck, he took command of the ship.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Aban,
I've said it before, and I'll say it again -- I think Picard was over-simplyifing the circumstances for the benefit of Tasha's sister. Why would she need to know all the background information? All she needed to know was about the bravery her sister displayed.
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