I don't know what's going on, but it's on now for me. Will post comments. So far:
-Yes, the movements are more smooth. But the CG shots are not distracting at all.
-No enhanced bridge effects AFAIK.
-The shots we've seen of the Enterprise over Earth are in fact of the Enterprise over Miri's world.
-They are keeping the original opening credits showing just Shatner ans Nimoy at this juncture.
-It's in 4x3 as suspected.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
-The cleaned up picture does look fantastic. The definition does have downsides, though, as some of the disease appliances look really glued on.
-They have a "closed captioning provided by" bumper, showing the new CG model firing a torpedo.
-There is no indication in the titles or otherwise that these are "enhanced" episodes.
-So far anyway there is no enhancemet of the planetside cityscapes, etc.. Probably won't be thie time out.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
-The phaser effect when Kirk stuns the chick is new & blue. Is the sound effect new too? It certianly wasn't the standard electronic whine, but this early on in the first season they hadn't yet settled on the final effect.
-One noticable consequence of re-doing the effects is shown in this episode: when we come back from each commercial break, the Enterprise is orbiting over a DIFFERENT part of Miri's world, and not the same shot over and over again.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
-The effect of Bones' diseased bit vanishing seems to have been touched up, instead of simply fading from one stage to another.
-No new warp effects - just the usual speeding off.
-Aside from cleaning it up, the end credits haven't changed at all. They added a modern Paramount graphic slide afterward, but that's it.
-No big complaints about this concept. My only question mark is why they decided to do "Miri" as part of the initial batch - it was hardly one of the stronger episodes. Methinks that they were behind on getting "Balance of Terror" done due to the number of shots to be done.
-Will I watch every new episode? Probably only the "big FX" ones, for me. This really wasn't a good example of what could be done, since so few new FX were needed in this one. I'll wait or "BoT" before calling it worthwhile, though.
Mark
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
Miri was early first season. Are they restoring the episodes in season order?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
The various press releases seemed to suggest that they were doing the popular ones first, though I'm not sure who this episode is popular with. It isn't the worst TOS episode featuring children, at least. (Actually, I don't think I've ever seen "And The Children Shall Lead Them.")
I wouldn't be surprised to learn that their project was taking longer than expected, because they can't have been doing too much work on it before announcing it, and they just announced it a month ago. It seemed like an awfully ambitious schedule to me.
(My favorite thing in this episode is the way McCoy spins that tricycle wheel.)
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I just checked and it seems that both "Balance of Terror" and "Miri" are done, and some markets are showing both of them this weekend, and others are splitting them up over two weeks.
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: I just checked and it seems that both "Balance of Terror" and "Miri" are done, and some markets are showing both of them this weekend, and others are splitting them up over two weeks.
i guess this is what happens when you move, gain limited access to the net and loose touch overall...
someone wanna give me cliff notes on WHAT your discussing? i'm in port for at least a couple weeks so i suppose i can look back here, curious minded...
MOO.
Edit: reads more.
Oh. Remasters. does this mean they reshot battle scenes now? like say, how they battled the Doomsday machine or M-5? like remaster so i can master.... hmm.... ?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I saw Balance of Terror! I guess I missed Miri (but that one sucks anyway).
It was really very good with a couple of exceptions:
The good: Enhanced picture is great to see- everything is crystal clear and I noticed many intresting lighting techniques for this episode- like them shading all of Kirk's face exceept for his eyes in a kind of "reverse racoon" pattern.
The GREAT: the new Enterprise shots are so good and generally match the original's shots...except for when the ship gets nailed by that "debris nuke"- then the ship is listing badly. The RBOP is very VERY nice- an exact replica of the original (no matching the one Eaves made) except in one shot where you can see various hull panels in a sort of checkerboard pattern (not quite the "aztec" of a federation starship, but the general look is close). The plasma weapon is new and looks much better- a big red ball of flame.
Disapointing:
No new computer screen shots- we're forced to look at the horribly dated cardboard diagram of the Neutral Zone and it really does not match the crispness (newness?) of the show. The RBOP just "fizzles" into cloak (like the original version) when the pattented cloaking effect would have been much better. No new background for the outpost's interior we see- the commander still looks to be hailing from a broom closet. The phasers still look and act like torpedos- bright blue blobs from vaguely the correct spot that (somehow) blow up into big blue coronas of light as they sweep the area for the RBOP.
Nothing to say it's new or improved at all! NOTHING! If they'd announce it was the NEW version, people would watch- as it stands, most will tune it out as "the same old thing".
The timeslot sucked ass- 6AM on what is the WB for one more week- nothing known after that.
Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: The phasers still look and act like torpedos- bright blue blobs from vaguely the correct spot that (somehow) blow up into big blue coronas of light as they sweep the area for the RBOP.
I readon the ST site that they did consider fixes for this sequence but ultimately just went with enlarged beams (something about "Proximity Phasers")
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Nothing to say it's new or improved at all! NOTHING! If they'd announce it was the NEW version, people would watch- as it stands, most will tune it out as "the same old thing".
The timeslot sucked ass- 6AM on what is the WB for one more week- nothing known after that.
That's the fault of your local channel, not UPN. Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Are these going to be... err... on the net?
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Legally, no. Illegaly, what isn't?
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
I looked for the episode on a bunch of torrents, but found nada.
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
I don't think Miri played here, but Balance of Terror did. I enjoyed it. I was surprised how little was different considering the industry mindset. There are a few things I might have done differently, but I can understand the dicisions they made.
Only real problem is the way the effect for the engine is done. Its a little too bright and fakey.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I also saw "Balance of Terror," and aside from the uncomfortable realization that maybe the episode doesn't actually make much sense, the updating seems lukewarm. I mean, they've changed it, so purists (like me occasionally I guess) won't be happy, but then they haven't actually changed enough of it to update anything. So it's a thin coat of gloss, is all, which, OK, fine I guess.
One thing this highlights is how the polygon count of your models takes a backseat to how you direct them. The technology of the time meant that effects shots needed to be static, in all sorts of ways. (Only ever seeing one side of the ship, for instance.) And now they've updated the look, but not the style, so the show still feels of its era.
I thought it would be neat to see Enterprise-level effects in a TOS context, but the shows aren't put together in such a way as to support cutting to elaborate effects shots. One would have to either make them longer, warping the act structure and thus fundamentally changing them, or cut existing interior stuff out which would be terrible, if only from an internal integrity point of view.
To sum up: not enough changed to make you angry, and not enough changed to make you excited. (Well, assuming you = me.)
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Yes, well, I know I'm the lone naysayer on this one, but I still have zero idea of what the point of this was. Replacing fake-looking motion control work with faker-looking CGI? C'mon people, I can't be the only one...what is the purpose?
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
I've now seen "Balance of Terror", and if this is all they're changing, I'm not gonna make a thread for every episode. I agree with the last couple posters - not enough is new to warrant talking about it all.
To be honest, until we see "The Ultimate Computer" and "The Doomsday Machine"...
Mark
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
I think I'm the only one that had BoT shown at a decent timeslot - 1:00 PM on Saturday. The downside there being it's on at the same time as College Football, so it still had to be recorded.
I thought the changes looked good, and they were done well enough to not pull me out of the episode. I was actually impressed that they didn't just repeat the same footage of the phaser bursts every time.
As for the promotion of this, I haven't seen it advertised *anywhere*. If it wasn't for Flare and TrekBBS, I wouldn't have known about it.
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
quote:Yes, well, I know I'm the lone naysayer on this one, but I still have zero idea of what the point of this was. Replacing fake-looking motion control work with faker-looking CGI? C'mon people, I can't be the only one...what is the purpose?
No, Mim, you're not the only one who finds this a bit pointless. As I said before, unless they make major changes (i.e. replacing the three stock-footage Enterprises in "The Ultimate Computer" with three brand-new distinct ship designs), then it's just watching the same show with CGI VFX instead of 1960's VFX. Big deal.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
quote:Originally posted by B.J.: As for the promotion of this, I haven't seen it advertised *anywhere*. If it wasn't for Flare and TrekBBS, I wouldn't have known about it.
Sigh. Man, you can't please everyone. If they changed it more, then the purists would complain. If you don't change it enough then people complain whats the point. Maybe they didn't advertise it heavily *because* it wasn't a big change and it was only fan-hype made it sound like it was supposed to be the Second Coming. Changing the effects can't cost much money, but its a good excuse to put the episodes back on TV and prepare them for release on some high definition DVD format.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
I've schooled myself a ton on this whole thing over the past weekend. My real verdict on this is that we'll never be satisfied, and with this latest re-tooling we aren't meant to be.
According to multiple sources, the whole idea with this retooling is just to REPLACE the original effects with shots analogous to the original, and to match the original as much as possible while removing obvious faults and limitations of the FX technology of the time. The reason behind this is that with the HD release, the old effects (shot on 16mm film) won't transfer the same way as the live action masters (shot on 35mm). So instead of perpetually fuzzy releases of the original VFX in HD, we'll get
Thus, the whole idea is to preserve the original as much as possible. We'll never see huge sweeping changes to the makeup or blocking of VFX shots. The doomsday machine will still look like a half-smoked joint, but it'll move smoother. The four other Connies in the wargames will bear correct registrations, but will move in the same formations. That's what they're trying to do in the first place, and with few exceptions and dramatic liberties, that's all we'll get.
Mark
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
I've seen screenshots and posted my opinion on my blog:
Uh-oh ... ST:TOR First Looks
"The Original. Remastered." is the tagline on ads for the new TOS, so I'm assuming TOR is the appropriate three-letter designator.
In any case, TrekMovie.com has some images of the remastered Balance of Terror. The images are at standard definition quality, so it's not the HD glory we're hearing of.
While it's unfair to judge based on these screenshots, I have to say that perhaps the attempt to replicate the 1960's over-lighting of the Enterprise was not the best plan. The ship looked pretty good rendered in the ST:ENT lighting style, but while I haven't seen her in motion yet, in these images the ship looks flat and kinda cartoony, with only the vaguest hints of the details seen in the beauty shots posted online. Of course perhaps the show looks better in HD, but perhaps TOR is not the best thing for standard-def.
One thing that seems clear, though, is that the forward nacelle caps are crappy, with none of the multicolored christmas-light look. I don't get it either . . . the ship looks absolutely frickin' gorgeous in the beauty shots, lit properly and with nacelle caps that are multicolored and very wait-is-that-the-real-model?-esque. But in the images we're seeing the nacelles look like they were done in Windows 3.11 Paintbrush with the Pepto-Puke color selected.
Hopefully the situation will improve, and Balance of Terror (serving here as the "pilot" for TOR) will either look really great on HD or else will be redone to do so. Or, most hopefully, maybe the screenshots are just crappy and things look great in full motion.
Fingers . . . crossed.
Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: The doomsday machine will still look like a half-smoked joint, but it'll move smoother.
As long as it doesn't move like ST:NV's DDM! Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
NOTHING should move like the NV rendition of the DDM.
In fact, none of the ships, none of the effects, none of the lighting should ever be done like NV. Graceful these ships are, not barrel-rolling fighters! Some of NV's choreography was downright painful to watch.
Mark
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"Man, you can't please everyone. If they changed it more, then the purists would complain. If you don't change it enough then people complain whats the point."
So, instead, they found the exact middle ground, wherein they please nobody.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
I really doubt the distribution of the fans has its peaks at the extremes, where the majority of fans are extreme worshipful purists or extreme VFX-hunting fanboys. I suspect that that the distribution is (as in most cases) a normal distribution, where most people can appreciate a minor update without expecting more. We (as a group that posts online about ST) is by definition abnormal and more vocal than that silent majority.
As with those DVD re-releases of Stargate SG-1 or X-Files that I've been seeing at much lower prices than the original release, I suspect that their plan is to eventually re-release these at a cheaper price than the originals and with higher quality to entice those that haven't bought-in yet.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
No, the plan is to sell the HD (or Blu-Ray? or both?) versions.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I agree about the nacelle caps - they sort of stand out and look CGI-ish - they can SO do better than that now-a-days.
That's just looking at those caps though - I wonder if they will show these in Australia!?!
Andrew
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mucus: I really doubt the distribution of the fans has its peaks at the extremes, where the majority of fans are extreme worshipful purists or extreme VFX-hunting fanboys. I suspect that that the distribution is (as in most cases) a normal distribution, where most people can appreciate a minor update without expecting more. We (as a group that posts online about ST) is by definition abnormal and more vocal than that silent majority.
1.) It's a "minor update" that was not in any way needed. 2.) Not only was it not in any way needed, it was not in any way imaginative or original. 3.) I don't give a rat's ass about the "silent majority" of people who don't really care about Star Trek one way or another.
To sum up: I am totally against an update, but I feel just as strongly that if it's going to be done it shouldn't be lukewarm and half-assed.
-MMoM Posted by Charles Capps (Member # 9) on :
quote:It's a "minor update" that was not in any way needed.
My understanding is that most of the effects shots were done on 16mm film, and ended up looking like ass when blown up to HD resolution.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
I keep hearing this argument and I'm simply not convinced. Even if it has validity, the fact that HD will only make the CGI more blatantly obvious seems to cancel out any benefit for me. If I could see what the original effects looked like in HD then perhaps my opinion might be slightly mitigated, but it seems that we won't have that opportunity.
Posted by emperorkalan (Member # 1821) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon:
The timeslot sucked ass- 6AM on what is the WB for one more week- nothing known after that.
You think that sucks? I'll trade you: The New York affiliate has it scheduled for 3:35AM, but thanks to late-night schedule shuffling due to the previous evening's football game running long, they ran it early, so that anyone tuning in or starting recording at the proper time was treated to the last 10 minutes of BoT and 40 minutes of "Access Hollywood".
Arrrrrgggggggghhhhhh! Posted by emperorkalan (Member # 1821) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: Thus, the whole idea is to preserve the original as much as possible. We'll never see huge sweeping changes to the makeup or blocking of VFX shots. The doomsday machine will still look like a half-smoked joint, but it'll move smoother. The four other Connies in the wargames will bear correct registrations, but will move in the same formations. That's what they're trying to do in the first place, and with few exceptions and dramatic liberties, that's all we'll get.
That's mostly the case, but there was some implication in the interview on StarTrek.com that there may be some small additions, like (perhaps) the Antares in "Charlie X". But we'll just have to wait to see if that pans out.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: I agree about the nacelle caps - they sort of stand out and look CGI-ish - they can SO do better than that now-a-days.
That's just looking at those caps though - I wonder if they will show these in Australia!?!
Andrew
The ship actually looks much more like a model than the Defiant did on Enterpeise. The end caps look spot-on to me.
As to VFX, I really had to watch close during the first Enterprise shots to make certain it was the new version I was watching (not having seen BoT in several years).
As to "not making everyone happy", I'm happy with TOS for probably the first time since childhood- it looks great and not overly re-done (nit-picks about old screen graphics aside).
The real test for me will not be Doomsday Machine or Ultimate computer, but will be Arena and Journey to babel where they had no "bad guy" ship due to bugetary constraints and just used a glowy effect. I want to see a Gorn ship! An Orion ship too!
quote:To sum up: I am totally against an update, but I feel just as strongly that if it's going to be done it shouldn't be lukewarm and half-assed.
Mim! WATCH it first, then bitch about it! The new version of BoT was neither un-needed or half-assed. More than anything else, they really cleaned up the original footage with this version and it looks amazing- as clean as the restored and added stuff in DS9. For probabaly the first time, TOS looks like it could be part of the TNG and DS9 universes and not just some cheesy 60's show with the same name.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: No, the plan is to sell the HD (or Blu-Ray? or both?) versions.
How do you know? I haven't read anything about *any* release of these new episodes. But I'd *suspect* that they would release the new version in as many formats as possible in order to maximise sales.
Mim: You may not care about the silent majority, but "they" do. They've probably decided that they've exhausted selling TOS to purists and uping the quality in order to create a selling point for a re-release. Demographically, they probably figure that they will gain a larger audience than what they'd lose by this update and they're probably right.
Heck, even with the Star Wars Special Edition thing (where they re-did the effects, released once, then re-leased the original without the new effects) they probably sold more by releasing in this order because more ended up buying both than being turned off altogether.
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
One thing I would probably change is the lighting temperature. The new effects shots look 'warmer' than the old ones did. The following is about 10 minutes of work in Photoshop, and also includes an attempt to make the self-illuminated surfaces look more like they used to. Its not a great job, but it gets the idea across.
Posted by Lurker Emeritus (Member # 1888) on :
Yes, nice job, Boh. I certainly prefer the original warmer colour, which might also imply subtly different paint colour to that seen later. The pictures of the redone episodes I've seen suggest that the Enterprise is a dark battleship grey, which doens't jibe even with the Defiant from Enterprise, which itself was a much brighter, better colour.
I haven't seen any of the episodes (obviously, as I'm a member of a second class market) but based on comments people have made about the Bird of Prey episode combined with the apparently unfavourable scheduling choices, it makes me wonder if this initial screening is not simply to test the waters. If the first feedback is good, perhaps there will be a future advertising campaign and better scheduling. Does that sound likely?
btw can people try to cut down on the use of three letter acronyms to describe the less obvious references, please? By all means, use the obvious, universally recognisable ones like TOS or any of the series names, but I had real trouble figuring out what BoT was before someone mentioned the full title in their post, despite the Bird of Prey references (sorry, I can't call the Bird of Prey a "bop". It looks silly, but perhaps that's just a British thing). In the end I had to check the episode listings on Jammer's Reviews just to be sure.
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
I'm not sure about other stations, but this week its moving to 6PM on Saturday on CW11/KSTW in Seattle.
Posted by OnToMars (Member # 621) on :
What did the man just say about acronyms?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
(Station call letters don't stand for anything.)
quote:Moving on this afternoon, here's something else that's very cool from Comic-Con. File this as Rumor Mill-worthy, but I learned while down in San Diego that not only is Paramount working to release The Ultimate Star Trek Movie Collection in high-definition on HD-DVD and (possibly) Blu-ray Disc... the studio is quietly remastering all 79 episodes of Star Trek: The Original Series for eventual high-def disc release as well. Paramount also has sparkling high-def masters of all 4 seasons of Star Trek: Enterprise to release on disc.
Now, however, I was fairly certain that this information was in all the press releases too, and apparently it isn't.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Well I was somehow able to attain a copy of the enhaced version of Balance of Teror and I must say I enjoyed it. I was actually more pleased with the crisp image quality of the original live action scenes than the CGI scenes, though they weren't bad either. I did note that the Bird of Prey seemed more "bulbous" than I remembered.
Also while surfing YouTube I found this. Not for the faint of heart, especially with the sound on.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
The stupid chills me just as much as the original videos did. Maybe more because that's the worst music ever. EVER. Simon will back me up on this.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
had to watch that clip with the music off- i particularly hate how the sratships and planetkillers "rev-up" to move forward quickly...(shudder). Still, if the CGI was used with an art director withsome sense, it could be cool.
Er....without Elvis, for fuck's sake.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
I especially like it when one of the Connies' deflector dish moves. I also find it interesting that the Guardian of Forever is big enough to have a Connie fly through it. Seriously, did they even watch an episode of Star Trek when they did this?
Posted by Johnny (Member # 878) on :
I love the Connie at the beginning that looks like it's ice skating.
The moving deflector dish actually seems like a good idea to me though. I mean, if you're constantly going to use it as a weapon to fire deus ex machina beams at everything, it might as well be pointed in the right direction.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
Actualy, MNW, if you inflict upon yourslef watch the whole "episode," you see that they found a much, much larger Guardian that Lasalle says, "oh yeh, I can fly through that summat good, right?"
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
LoL!!!!
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Johnny: I love the Connie at the beginning that looks like it's ice skating.
The moving deflector dish actually seems like a good idea to me though. I mean, if you're constantly going to use it as a weapon to fire deus ex machina beams at everything, it might as well be pointed in the right direction.
Except, of course, threy never did. The moving deflector dish looks too "Direct TV" for my tastes.
It's fun to watch the starships with the sound off and make engine-revving/tire-squealing sounds as they peel-out and slide into turns.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
quote:Originally posted by Captain Boh: I'm not sure about other stations, but this week its moving to 6PM on Saturday on CW11/KSTW in Seattle.
Whoa, wait -- you're in Seattle, too, Cap'n?
--Jonah
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Everyone online lives withing five miles of you and we've been trying not to tell you....! Thanks Capn! Ass. Blew the whole fucking gag- Nim's whole "I'm from Sweden" was a classic too.
Sweden, for God's sake...
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
quote:Originally posted by Peregrinus:
quote:Originally posted by Captain Boh: I'm not sure about other stations, but this week its moving to 6PM on Saturday on CW11/KSTW in Seattle.
Whoa, wait -- you're in Seattle, too, Cap'n?
--Jonah
Vancouver, BC acctually, but we get some of Seattle's networks on cable.
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