quote:
she's not being forced into wearing Starfleet rank.
Yes, the script makes that very clear:
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CHARLIE
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you just kind of an "observer" on this mission? I don't remember anyone telling me you were a member of Starfleet.T'POL
My Vulcan rank supersedes yours.CHARLIE
Apples and oranges. This is an Earth vessel. You're in no position to take command.
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I was at work & tooks a good hard look at T'Pol's uni on the cover of TV Guide.
Shik, please tell me that the rank pips weren't the ONLY thing you noticed about her uniform...
Actually, when I saw your thread title, I thought you were going to discuss the Starfleet rank pips. Does anyone else find it odd that the Enterprise's crew wears the exact type of rank pips as the TNG era? Especially since after ENTERPRISE and before TNG, the pips disappear in favor of sleeve rank braids in TOS?
Stripes would've been cool-ish. If they did stipes, they should've been on the shoulders like today's enlisted grades. But then everyone would be all "WTF??"
Stripes would've been cool-ish. If they did stipes, they should've been on the shoulders like today's enlisted grades. But then everyone would be all "WTF??"
The rank system we're familiar with from the TNG era could be an Earth tradition. When the Federation is formed and the Federation Starfleet comes into existence, all of the founding members provide input into the organization. Perhaps the Andorians, Tellarites, or Alpha Centaurians proposed the strip rank and the uniform look while Earth provided the department breakdown and color scheme. Eventually, someone else got the chance to do the TOS movie era through Pre-TNG ranks, and then Earth got custody of the Uniform Control Division. This may also explain why there have been three different uniforms in 14 years.
On a similar note, is Dr. Phlox in Starfleet? Of everything I've seen for Enterprise, only once has he been wearing something resembling a Starfleet uniform (namely, one of the promos where his back is to us and he's with Tucker). Then, it's only certain he's wearing a field jacket. Everything else has him in this light-colored jumpsuit.
I too would have prferred to see something different as far as rank insignia goes. Maybe some kind of shoulder stripes or something. Something that hints more at TOS than it does at TNG.
Maybe Lily Sloane suggested this ranksystem after she saw it aboard the E-E.
Frankly, yes, I'd like to see not stripes (except on dress uniforms), but the rank pins the Navy uses for it's khaki uniforms ... in other words, the TOS movie emblems.
Frankly, yes, I'd like to see not stripes (except on dress uniforms), but the rank pins the Navy uses for it's khaki uniforms ... in other words, the TOS movie emblems.
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but the rank pins the Navy uses for it's khaki uniforms ... in other words, the TOS movie emblems.
IMO those two rank pin sets are totally different.
Also, does anyone one precisely what species Dr Phlox is? Has it not come out yet, or has this entirely passed me by?
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IMO those two rank pin sets are totally different.
Yes, I'm aware of that -- I meant that the pins would be more in place for a newly space-faring navy then stripes (except on dress uniforms) or the TNG pips.
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I would prefer stripes too, but Starfleet uniforms and accessories have changed back and forth on a number of occassions so I don't think the rank pips are a problem, just another example of such things being introduced, being phased out in favour of another method, then reintroduced, etc.
Thats not a bad point, but the ever growning pile of it switched backisms is big enough. Why does everything have to be like the damn TNG era? Don't they have any creativity left in them at all? Don't like TOS? Fine then have it be completely different from both shows.
Personally, among other things swiped from the later series, I wish they'd dumped the dark, cramped look of DS9 and Voyager. I miss the bright, spacious corridors and rooms of TOS.
Stripes instead of pips:
Casual viewer 1: "What are those stripe thingies on his shoulder, there?"
Casual viewer 2: "How the hell should I know? Pikerd never wore anything like that."
Pips instead of stripes:
Casual viewer 1:"What are those suare looking thingies on his shoulder?"
Casual viewer 2: "Those are like them circles that Pikerd wore on that other Star Trek show. That means he's in charge...cause he has four."
Basically, the "casual viewer" knows who the captain is because everyone calls him/her/it "captain".
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Originally posted by Dr Phlox:
What about the Promenade? Anyway Bright colors wouldn't work on tv today and Paramount is going for a film look.
The Promenade was supposed to be big, but it never felt to me like it was very different from any of the multilevel engineering sets. Especially when they would keep it packed with people.
I'm not asking for the pastels of TOS, just a little more light. Besides, it's well known that colors have real, measurable effects on mood and it's illogical to stuff people on a starship for years on end with depressingly dark interiors. Nostromo and Galactica notwithstanding.
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You had to get about a foot and a half away from someone before you could tell whether or not to salute him.
Yeah, I hated khakis in the Navy for that reason. Every time you walk by somebody wearing them on the street you have to squint at the stupid pins to see if they're an officer or a chief.
CHEV-RONSSS!!
I'm with you, CaptainMike. Chevrons would be phat.
(though unlikely)
I follow a lot of military history and parlance, but im still not clear on what it means to go from 'warrant officer' (like obriens hollow pip indicated) to a master chief (which his chevrons work out to in most peoples reasoning) or if thats even likely.. anyone know?
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I follow a lot of military history and parlance, but im still not clear
on what it means to go from 'warrant officer' (like obriens hollow pip
indicated) to a master chief (which his chevrons work out to in most
peoples reasoning) or if thats even likely.. anyone know?
That would be a demotion. A warrant officer is superior in grade to any enlisted man. He or she doesn't have the rights and responsibilities of a commissioned officer (and therefore is junior to an ensign or 2nd lieutenant), but the warrant officer still receives a salute from enlisted personnel.
To throw another problem into the mix, consider this: O'Brien was tactical officer under Captain Maxwell. That would be a strange position for a chief to have, especially since a Nebula-class ship is an explorer, Starfleet's top of the line design.
but the fact remains.. there werent any officers on the frigate?
O'Briens had a lot of odd jobs though.. he wasnt originally a specialist in transporters, but was forced to learn fast by jury-rigging them during the First Cardassian War.. then Maxwell liked his tactical ability so much he had him do that.. then he became transporter chief on the E-D, then operations on DS9, which encompasses a lot more. And what happened when Starfleet assigned engineers who were officers? They had a few lines about it with Ensign Muniz in his episodes like 'The Ship' (O'Brien pointed out he didnt have to call him sir)
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Or that they'll salute, for that matter.
Following current naval tradition, one can only salute when covered (wearing a hat). There are no uniform hats for Enterprise.
And don't forget that he was at conn during "Farpoint".
"And what happened when Starfleet assigned engineers who were officers? They had a few lines about it with Ensign Muniz in his episodes like 'The Ship' (O'Brien pointed out he didnt have to call him sir)"
They got round that by conveniently having all engineering staff on the station and Defiant be non-coms. Which strains credibility. When Nog returned though, O'Brien was quite clearly still his superior officer (and I think Nog called him "sir" as well, although that might have just been out of respect).
The stint at E-D battle section helm could also be due to personnel shortages - the ship was missing many key officers, after all.
Aboard DS9, however, O'Brien did command a number of officers. Both Neela and Anara, the first-season assassin and her predecessor, seemed to be Ensigns, and so were many of the uncredited Starfleet extras doing O'Brien's bidding. One or two such exceptions I could understand, especially in a fuzzy joint command structure like that, but it became pretty unrealistic after a while.
Timo Saloniemi
I guess I don't find it that hard to believe that DS9 didn't have any officers in the engineering field. It was a backwater post that was never going to go anywhere. It needed alot of grunt work done when Starfleet first took over. Now, after awhile, and especially when the Defiant was stationed there, it would seem more reasonable to have a few officers on board.
Yet we did see plenty of officers from Starfleet there, wearing yellow and yes sir'ing O'Brien. Perhaps many of these people were actually part of the Security dept, though? Just like Security could borrow LaForge's men in "Chain of Command", perhaps O'Brien was loaning people from the officer in charge of Starfleet Security forces - Primmin or somebody like him, later Eddington, then probably Worf (that Klingon is a workaholic - he'd certainly want to pull double or triple duty aboard the station).
It seems weird, though, that the person in charge of these officer-level people would be so seldom seen. And that there would be so many officers in the Security force to begin with, when Engineering would have none. I suspect the role of the top yellowshirt on the station was not to usurp Odo's role in station law enforcement, but to stand by and train for military action like invasion repelling. Only in exceptional times would Primmin and his kind take Odo's place or help him in his task. A weird arrangement in any case.
Timo Saloniemi
What bothers me more is that, even though they finally acknowledged enlisted ranks in Starfleet after all those years by giving O'Brien chevrons on his collar, whenever they have crewpeople on VGR they just have blank collars.. i could imagine some variant of a single slash on the square or a single chevron on the square to indicate their rating, going along the system of O'Brien's 3 chevrons and two pippy things sewn on there
Possibly to avoid painful situations in which newly fledged ensigns start ordering the Chief Engineer of a starbase around
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Hm... If you oly have to salute when wearing a hat, could you avoid saluting by taking off your hat every time a superior walks by? Pretend to be scratching your head, or something...
Well yes. But then you would get busted for being outside without a hat on.
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What bothers me more is that, even though they finally acknowledged enlisted ranks in Starfleet after all those years by giving O'Brien chevrons on his collar, whenever they have crewpeople on VGR they just have blank collars.. i could imagine some variant of a single slash on the square or a single chevron on the square to indicate their rating, going along the system of O'Brien's 3 chevrons and two pippy things sewn on there
Something like this?
http://tylgre.tripod.com/Enlisted.gif
It was created for the LUG Star Trek RPG's Players Guide but ended up never being used. I rather like it.
[ September 14, 2001: Message edited by: Obi Juan ]