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Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :

Here's the article over at TrekWeb that lists some spoilers for "Dear Doctor." This is supposedly a "spy report" that doesn't mention the conclusion to the episode, so take this information with a few handfuls of salt.

Anyway, here's some basics about the episode. First, it's in a format similar to "Data's Day" in which the story is told through the personal correspondence of Doctor Phlox. In this episode, Elizabeth Cutler from "Strange New Worlds" makes another apperance and has a crush on Doctor Phlox. Archer and crew try to help a pre-warp civilization that is suffering from a plague that they can't seem to cure. These pre-warp aliens also put Archer in a tight spot by asking for warp technology. Archer has to decide whether to give them the technology or assume a position similar to the Vulcans in their dealing with Earth and refuse.

A couple of points brought up this "spy report." First, the aliens make a mention of having had Ferengis stop by recently. I have no idea what to make of this; my initial reaction is to hope that this part gets rewritten or written out in the final version. Another point brought up is that Doctor Phlox is revealed to be a Denobulan.

This sounds like it could be a pretty okay to pretty good episode. Other episodes done in this format include "Data's Day," "In the Pale Moonlight," and "Thirty Days." I personally liked all of those episodes. Some of the stuff rubs me the wrong way (such as the Ferengi reference and Cutler's crush on Phlox). It just seems to me that Enterprise is too close to Earth to be hearing a mention of the Ferengi. I suppose the romantic interests between Phlox and Cutler could be all right if the director and writer can get a good flow going with the characters.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Well, the Ferengi are bound to be "out and about" ... just because we hear about them doesn't mean Archer & Co. meet them ... ("The Ferengi? Who the hell are the Ferengi?")

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Well, it would contradict the Ferengi's first few appearences on TNG. But, uh, I'm not at all sure that's a bad thing. As for earliest contact dates outside of TNG...we never really got any, that I recall.

This seems to be another issue where the producers can't win. Create new aliens and fans ask where they went. Bring in old ones and fans ask why they're here already.

Anyway, I wouldn't have any real problem with the Ferengi being around somewhere. I'd like to see some Trill, while we're at it.

Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :

Well, i believe it was established that, before 'The Last Outpost' no Ferengi had been seen by humans. Could be wrong, that was my impressions. The Ferengi had certainly never seen the humans (surprised by clothed females, etc..).

Not enough was known about them for Picard to even establish that the Ferengi had assaulted the Stargazer.. he didnt even know who had attacked him until the Ferengi told him nine years later in 'The Battle'

But the Federation *knew* about them.. they were mentioned as early as 'Encounter at Farpoint'

I could imagine that, over the years, the Federation was constantly running into people who said 'Oh yeah, the Ferengi were just here, but you missed them' and then he Federation is like 'Oh those guys.. maybe we'll meet them...' *looking into the camera* '....someday!' *music swells*
But even better would be for humans to only hear a couple references to the Ferengi, so that even by 2355 they will be able to say 'well, weve heard of them four times but damned if we know who they are!'

Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :

Indeed, Deep Space Nine strongly implied that the Ferengi have been involved in the galactic millieu for some time previous to TNG. The Ferengi invention of synthehol being the most obvious example. Generations implies that Geordi knew at least a few cursory facts about the Ferengi during the Farpoint mission, and "Encounter at Farpoint" itself mentions them, eliciting recognition from Picard. So there's little doubt that the Ferengi were known of long before "The Last Outpost."

Is this a big issue? Well, Europeans knew of fantastic lands called China and India for centuries before they actually saw them. So I'm leaning towards "not," but what do I know?

A detail Sieggy missed: the spoilers make it pretty clear that Ferengi are really spanking new as T'Pol makes a comment about the Vulcans never having even heard of them.

[ October 17, 2001: Message edited by: The_Tom ]

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Yes, but almost everything from "The Last Outpost" was contradicted in DS9. This is generally regarded as a Good Thing.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

The Federation knew about the Ferengi for a good deal of time before Encounter at Farpoint -- they seemed to know rough information (a race of traders), and also their general territorial bounderies. First contact between official emissarys of the Federation (namely, Picard & Co.) didn't occur until The Last Outpost, although it was later implied that the Ferengi had had (I'm assuming, "third party") contact with the Federation beforehand.

To be honest, though, TNG itself altered the Ferengi more then DS9 did -- at first they were shown to be very militaristic, and then their economic background was showcased and the military aspect of their culture was abandoned.

The Cardassians apparently knew about the Ferengi for a long, long, long time before Federation contact -- perhaps the Federation learned of Ferengi business interests during the Cardassian Wars from Bajoran militia members?

One other thing -- the Federation had no specific data on the Ferengi. Data commented that they were roughly as advanced as the Federation, in that the Ferengi were more advanced in some fields, and less in others.

Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :

By the way, working off a 6-day week, an 8-day shoot per episode, and a shooting start of "Favorite Son" either on Sept 24 or 25, "Dear Doctor" is most likely episode 12 and will wrap at the end of this week.

We also should expect a formal announcement of an extended pickup from UPN beyond the initial 13-episode commitment in the next few days, as they've basically gotta get the money lined up for episode 14 by the time episode 13's on the soundstages.

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Count me in as approving of the Ferengi reference. The TNG heroes knew far too much of them in "The Last Outpost" for that to be the first real contact between the races. I'd say the Ferengi knew perfectly well what human *males* looked like at that point. They had only been fooled earlier by the fact that the TOS movie-era uniforms didn't reveal QUITE so clearly that there were females underneath some of them... (And perhaps size DD cups are not the norm even in the 24th century, but simply a Starfleet entry requirement?)

Also, the Ferengi have been characterized as moving slowly and cautiously ("Little Green Men"), yet they admit they have soiled their reputation pretty much across the entire known Alpha quadrant ("The Nagus"). So it would make sense for them to have had an early start!

Oh, and Denebola is of course a real star quite close to Earth. Apart from minor spelling differences, this sounds promising as the Doctor's hometown.

Curious that an interstellar pre-warp ship could be characterized as a "shuttle"... It wouldn't be able to shuttle between two points, really. And at this point, Earth would be in no position to consider all small craft as "shuttles", since it would probably still have numerous non-shuttle small craft of its own.

Timo Saloniemi

[ October 17, 2001: Message edited by: Timo ]

Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :

Thanks for the posts, y'all. I'm not really all that familiar with all of the backstory for the Ferengis. What I do remember is from "The Last Outpost" and the Stargazer episode of TNG. So it would appear that **places tongue firmly in cheek** I was allowing a line or two of insignicant dialogue completely turn off to the possibility of alternatives.

Obviously, latter TNG episodes and DS9 changed a lot of the references and such for the Ferengi backstory. Reading all of this (as well as Tom pointing out something I must have missed while speed-reading) makes me feel much better about a throw-away reference to the Ferengi.

Posted by Alshrim Dax (Member # 258) on :

I remember Picard saying that when the Stargazer met up with the Ferengis, it had been a 'first contact' situation.

The Stargazer approached an unknown ship.. and it attacked - and this ended up being the battle where he came up with the "Picard Maneuver".

Am I wrong in thinking they had never encountered a ferengi before that time?!

Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :

It's been a while since I last saw "The Battle," but if I remember correctly Picard's description of those events was a bit on the vague side. He said he had encountered an unknown vessel and attempted to make first contact with it. The unknown vessel opened fire on the Stargazer.

I would surmise that Daimon Bok's son either captured another species' vessel (since some Ferengi seem to do that per "Rascals") or it was a type of standard Ferengi ship that Starfleet had no record of. Unless they did an in-depth scan, they might not had realized that it was a Ferengi crew onboard.

Posted by Alshrim Dax (Member # 258) on :

Very Well. I simply do not recall there being any mention of contact with the Ferengi before that time.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Starfleet didn't realize Picard had encountered the Ferengi until they presented him the Stargazer and informed him that it *was* a Ferengi ship he had destroyed.

Posted by MIB (Member # 426) on :

Ferengis are mentioned in this episode? I approve.

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

The only problem I see is that Quark seemed to think that the Ferengi got warp drive after humans did. In "Little Green Men" he said, "...we'll have warp drive centuries before Humans, or klingons, or even the Vulcans."

He was talking about that being the outcome of changing the timeline, which would imply that in the "real" time line, Ferengi developed warp drive (or bought warp drive) after Humans.

So if the Ferengi don't have warp drive yet, how could they be out hub-bubbing with other species?

Posted by MIB (Member # 426) on :

For all we know, the Ferengi developed (or bought) warp drive just a month after humans did. If they bought it, they may have bought a highly advanced and very fast warp drive. Faster than the NX-01 even. If this is the case, even though the Ferengi may have bought warp drive 50 years after Humans developed it, they may have covered more ground because they had the faster ships.

Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :

"Little Green Men" canonically states that the Ferengi did indeed buy warp drive. Robert Hewitt Wolfe and Ira Stephen Behr further speculated that it was the Breen who sold it to them (with the implication given that it was a long time ago) in "Legends of the Ferengi."

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Quark's comment needn't mean the Ferengi got warp after humans. He's just happy because they're going to have it "centuries before" us. Before, maybe they only got it fifty years before us, so they weren't too far ahead of us. With an extra couple hundred years, they could advance far beyond us.

Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :

Alternately, the Ferengi could have bought a full-meal-deal warp-7 capable drive only about ten years before "Broken Bow" and instantly gone from far behind to way ahead of the humans.

Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :

I agree.. that comment does nothing to date the origin of Ferengi interstallar travel.

If Quark had sold warp drive to the Ferengi in 1947, they would have warp drive before anybody.

He wasnt saying they didnt get until after them originally, hes just stating the outcome of an action.

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

And even if a future ENT episode reveals that Vulcans in fact had warp before 1947, we can twist Quark's words easily enough. He had just found out from Rom that he knew how they ended up in the past, and that the ship could be repaired. He could have been planning on moving even further back in time, so that he could indeed give (sell!) the warp drive to the Ferengi centuries before anybody else on that short list of species had it.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Alshrim Dax (Member # 258) on :

All this "Quark Speculation" takes it for granted that he was successful in changing the timeline! Which, I'm not entirely sure he was.

Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The_Tom:
By the way, working off a 6-day week, an 8-day shoot per episode, and a shooting start of "Favorite Son" either on Sept 24 or 25, "Dear Doctor" is most likely episode 12 and will wrap at the end of this week.
We also should expect a formal announcement of an extended pickup from UPN beyond the initial 13-episode commitment in the next few days, as they've basically gotta get the money lined up for episode 14 by the time episode 13's on the soundstages.

Drat! Foiled! It appears "Dear Doctor" is episode 13, and that the powers that be are a few days ahead of where I reckoned they'd be.

This does mean that as of today, Oct 24, Enterprise simply must have been given a production extension. Ep 14 will shoot (or is shooting) any day now. Its budget must've been drawn up. Money must've been handed out. It would appear that the Hollywood newswires just aren't reporting the pickup (which was all-but-assured anyway, but would be nice to hear about nonetheless.)

[ October 23, 2001: Message edited by: The_Tom ]

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

It shows a few things, having "Enterprise" mention the Ferengi.

1. The PTB - Aka B&B are soo keen to have 'fan' support that they are trying to appease them with the 'continuity' situation. They do it the wrong way though - by mentioning the Ferengi. This wouldn't have happend on DS9. On DS9, most pre 2264 mentions of Ferengi were acceptable - usually only a few years earlier to fit in with early TNG. But TWO CENTURIES earlier... that's just laziness, or maybe even disdane for the fans. Why not mention a TOS race instead.

2. Maybe they are lining up potential Ferengi episodes to make use of all the prosthetic heads that I'm sure Mr Westmore has lying around his studio.

3. It shows the difference between the TNG production team and the ENT production team. I was reading in the Compendium I think, that for the episode Tapestry, they were gonna put a Ferengi in as a bar tender at the Bonestall Rec Facility - when someone (I can't remember) chimed in an reminded them of the fact that the Federation hadn't MET the Ferengi at this time - so they put another alien in there.

4. They are always going on about them keeping on meeting the same old races. So, what have we got now that was continually shown in the last 3 Treks? Klingons, Vulcans and Ferengi. (Oh My) ;o)

Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :

quote:
Originally posted by AndrewR:
The PTB - Aka B&B are soo keen to have 'fan' support that they are trying to appease them with the 'continuity' situation. They do it the wrong way though - by mentioning the Ferengi. This wouldn't have happend on DS9.

Ah yes, DS9, the show where the Eugenics Wars happened in the 2170s. The show where O'Brien joined Starfleet 22 years ago... despite being said to have joined Starfleet 22 years ago a few years prior in TNG. The show where the Setlik III incident moved to 2363. I love Deep Space Nine second only to the original series, but it wasn't immune from continuity errors.

quote:
Originally posted by AndrewR:
that's just laziness, or maybe even disdane for the fans.

Does anyone really believe that the producers have disdain for the people that put food on their tables? Come on now. Maybe they just have disdain for the people who expect them to be flawless and only give exactly what is wanted in exactly the form requested. Smear campaigns aren't exactly going to endear the producers to any fans they have disdain for, are they?

quote:
Originally posted by AndrewR:
Why not mention a TOS race instead.

Um, "The Andorian Incident," anyone? A whole episode is far better than a mere mention.

quote:
Origianlly posted by AndrewR:
They are always going on about them keeping on meeting the same old races. So, what have we got now that was continually shown in the last 3 Treks? Klingons, Vulcans and Ferengi. (Oh My) ;o)

They aren't (as of current rumors) going to show the Ferengi. They are going to mention them once, to the confusion of the humans and Vulcan that hear the name. Keep digging.

[ October 24, 2001: Message edited by: Ryan McReynolds ]

Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :

I definitely don't think this is a case of the producers showing disdain for the fans or that it is a sign of laxiness. Rather, I think this is a case of them trying to appeal to both TOS fans and TNG+ fans. I mean, fans of TOS can recognize the references to the Axanar from "Fight of Flight" and now we're going to have an entire episode dedicated to the Andorians in "The Andorian Incident." The TNG era fans are going to recognize the makeup technique of Klingons (as the fans of TOS movies will) and a throwaway line to the Ferengi.

Also, as Ryan pointed out, we are not going to be seeing the Ferengi. There is going to be a mention of this species' name and it will not register with the humans or T'Pol. It would seem that the Ferengi are a newly met race to the guest alien species in "Dear Doctor," anyway. This is likely something that will go into Starfleet's file of stuff that they heard about in passing but probably won't follow up on (the same file the Borg were in from the late 23rd century to TNG's "Q-Who").

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Siggy,

Sometimes you're so insightful I forget you like to prance around in pink bikini underwear and paste Liz's face on your body.

Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :

Umm... no comment on the pink bikini underwear.