lol"On another note, I asked in another, earlier thread why the Andorians were members of the Federation given their violent nature. I guess I now have a pretty good idea. I'm sure that after this episode, the Andorians probably have formed a strong trust for the Humans, despite the fact that they are allies with the Vulcans sense Archer ordered T'pol to give the Andorian commander a detailed scan of the spy facility under the monestary.
[ October 31, 2001: Message edited by: MIB ]
Didn't like:
>The transporter. I still would love if this were a shuttle only kind of show.
>Didnt get to see the Andorian ship
>Westmore is an ass for adding forehead ridges to Andorians (im pretty sure all the antennae moving circuitry was on the back of their heads, he really doesnt have a technical excuse for doing much with their foreheads). Would it be so hard for him to believe there is a species in the Galaxy that has pristine foreheads like humans? First he did it to the Romulans, and now this. On the up side he did a damn good job of making serious looking Andorians.
And they all had white (or yellow-whitish) hair. Whoever said they had brown hair was wrong. But thanks for messing with our heads.
Liked:
OOh so much.. Andorians, antennae, whatever..
This show adds a lot of credence to my 'The Vulcans arent being very logical at all' argument from Broken Bow.. they are smug and superior because they think they are right, and the fact of the matter is, they are wrong, in so many ways i cant begin to name. Hopefully T'Pol (who was not only angry at her human shipmates, but at her own people's foolishness) will be the one who puts the change in their attitudes towards humans into play.
"LOL Talk about unluckly for the Vulcans. If the Enterprise had beamed the Andorians up (only four of them) or had shot at them through the holes of the face instead of blowing it up, no one would have stumbled upon the scanner. Thank god for the explosive loving Brit guy! lol"
Thank god indeed! 3 cheers for the "Explosive Loving Brit Guy!!!"
Lets see...
1. Failure to detect the vulcan array after the third very detailed search....especially when the door is behind a tapestry...[could be vulcan sensor jammers?]
whatever...someone should have peeked at that particular wall more "closely" at least once.
2. Failure to spot the secret passageway in that room where the hostages are kept.
3. Failure to immediately detect tuckers transmission.
4. Failure to be alerted to reeds rescue team more quickly.
I do wonder what the andorians will do now, perhaps launch an attack on vulcan? I guess if they could they would have done so already.
So, i think that particular vulcan array is there to stay.
quote:
1. Failure to detect the vulcan array after the third very detailed search....especially when the door is behind a tapestry...[could be vulcan sensor jammers?]
whatever...someone should have peeked at that particular wall more "closely" at least once.
I was under the impression that the Andorians had never made it *into* the catacombs to begin with ... that's why the Vulcans had the old transmitter. The catacombs were so well hidden, the Andorians never knew about them. Presumeably, the rocks either blocked sensors, or the facility had a device to give Andorian sensors a negative result: "Nope, nothing here, move along now."
quote:
2. Failure to spot the secret passageway in that room where the hostages are kept.
Again, it seemed pretty well hidden.
quote:
3. Failure to immediately detect tuckers transmission.
From ... where? Thier ship would be the logical choice, right? But there were only four Andorians, and they seemed to be in the monastary at all times -- meaning, no one was watching their ships' scanners or sensors. Of course, it makes sense that the Andorians had someone in their ship -- otherwise, their threat to Reed wouldn't have made much sense. Then again, they weren't expecting the Vulcans to have any sort of transmission technology, and they thought they destroyed the Enterprise crew's communicators.
quote:
4. Failure to be alerted to reeds rescue team more quickly.
Looked to me like that one Andorian picked up Reed's team just about as soon as they materialized.
[ October 31, 2001: Message edited by: Malnurtured Snay ]
Those communicators are really fragile things, huh? I guess the body is made of plastic considering how easily the Andorian broke and shattered the communicators.
I still like the new Andorian makeup. The forehead piece, in my opinion, didn't detract from the overall scheme and was done with just the right amount of subtlety. It blended nicely into the hairline and antennae. The shade of blue I didn't like, though. I would have gone with a darker shade, but it still looked pretty good.
Yeah, overall, a pretty good and enjoyable episode. Not that much else to add, really.
Now I reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalllllllllllyyyyyyy want to see the Tellarites!
And the Andorian makeup? Perfection! No highly pronounced forhead ridges like the Rommies or Klingons, just a very cool, quite true to TOS, look.
-MMoM
We get to see, finally, a good working relationship between Archer and T'Pol only to have it blown by the Vulcan .. Tho' I think she was as shocked as Archer...
One thing... why did Archer take the beating to throw that relic down into the face in the wall? Why not... WALK UP THE STAIR TO SEE WHERE IT LED?
Reed got up there undetected enough to activate bombs..... I think the good captain could have saved himself a beating.
[ November 01, 2001: Message edited by: Alshrim ]
"THERE..... ARE .... ONLY .... THREE... LIGHT!!!!"
*in a small puny voice* .. with one little green flashing light in the eye there...
BOOM!!!!!!!
Reed: "Captain, for God Sake .. get a shirt on .."
Archer: "Sorry, Reed.. MUST... SHARE.. BLANKET WITH.. T'POL!"
quote:
Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay:
I was under the impression that the Andorians had never made it *into* the catacombs to begin with ... that's why the Vulcans had the old transmitter. The catacombs were so well hidden, the Andorians never knew about them. Presumeably, the rocks either blocked sensors, or the facility had a device to give Andorian sensors a negative result: "Nope, nothing here, move along now."
[ October 31, 2001: Message edited by: Malnurtured Snay ]
I'm pretty sure the andorians are well aware of the catacombs[Archer specifically argued that the andorians seen the ancient relics before in that last room, so why can't humans]
besides, if andorian sensors can't even detect the existance of the catacombs, then that pretty much add fire to my argumement that andorian sensors are crapola!
quote:
Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay:
Again, it seemed pretty well hidden.
[ October 31, 2001: Message edited by: Malnurtured Snay ]
Uh...to the naked eye maybe, but this is the third very detailed search the andorians conducted of the temple....why would the andorians not specifically search for secret passageways is beyond me,
do the andorians expect that the secret entrance to the sensor array is gonna have a huge neon sign pointing at it---saying:
"secret passageway to sensor array here: turn relic counter clockwise to access"
? yeah right.
quote:
Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay:
From ... where? Thier ship would be the logical choice, right? But there were only four Andorians, and they seemed to be in the monastary at all times -- meaning, no one was watching their ships' scanners or sensors. Of course, it makes sense that the Andorians had someone in their ship -- otherwise, their threat to Reed wouldn't have made much sense. Then again, they weren't expecting the Vulcans to have any sort of transmission technology, and they thought they destroyed the Enterprise crew's communicators.
[ October 31, 2001: Message edited by: Malnurtured Snay ]
huh?...why would the andorians need their ship when they have their own sensors equipment here in the temple, or some kind of console linked up to their ship's sensors?
Its not a big point, but for a planet without technology, they should have found any kind of energy signature going from the surface to orbit a bit odd.
"They weren't looking" is a lazy excuse for everything. They're idiots or their sensor tech suck.
quote:
Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay:
Looked to me like that one Andorian picked up Reed's team just about as soon as they materialized.
[ October 31, 2001: Message edited by: Malnurtured Snay ]
There is no denying the fact that andorian sensor tech is less than stellar or the andorians are incompetant.
This should explain why the Andorians just don't invade Vulcan regardless.
[ November 01, 2001: Message edited by: TheF0rce ]
[ November 01, 2001: Message edited by: TheF0rce ]
quote:
Uh....no...i'm pretty sure the andorians are well aware of the catacombs[Archer specifically argued that the andorians seen the ancient relics in that last room, so why can't humans]
besides, if andorian sensors can't even detect the existance of the catacombs, then that pretty much add fire to my argumement that andorian sensors are shit!
Well, the sensors in TNG have had troubles pentrating rock formations, as I recall. Is it really surprising that Andorian tech two centuries earlier can't, either?
I don't recall that arguement by Archer. If the Andorians knew about the catacombs, they would've a) found the radio transmitter and fixed it, and b) not put their prisoners in a room with access to it.
quote:
Uh...to the naked eye maybe, but you forget that this is the third very detailed search the andorians conducted of the temple....why would the andorians not specifically search for secret passageways is beyond me,
do the andorians expect that the secret entrance to the sensor array is gonna have a huge neon sign pointing at it---saying:
Well, since they didn't KNOW ABOUT THE CATACOMBS ... idiot.
quote:
Its not a big point, but for a planet without technology, they should have found any kind of energy signature going from the surface to orbit a bit odd. "They weren't looking" is a lazy excuse for everything. They're idiots or their sensor tech suck.
The energy signature from the facility was no doubt blocked somehow by the Vulcans so it didn't register on an orbiting ships' scanners.
quote:
There is no denying the fact that andorian sensor tech is incompetent or the andorians are.
There is no denying the fact that your grammar is as deficient as you are.
So, they did know about the catacombs, and if they didn't?.....then thats my point.
quote:
Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay:There is no denying the fact that your grammar is as deficient as you are.
LOL
oh my god,
what kind of loser are you?
Is this a personal attack or are you even trying to look upon the debate. Or do you even know the difference?
And WHY are you even trying to refute points that are not casting anything against the show? I've seen your quick tempered arguements in other threads where you "jump to the rescue" of what you percieve as "enterprise bashing", but comon, this is a little more stupid.
The andorians are pretty sure the vulcans are hiding it somewhere, so that means automatically they should be searching for secret passage ways don't your think.
Idiot.
[ November 01, 2001: Message edited by: TheF0rce ]
quote:
I'm pretty sure the andorians are well aware of the catacombs[Archer specifically argued that the andorians seen the ancient relics before in that last room, so why can't humans]
I got the impression that the Andorians had fled that way after the charges went off and so Archer was referring to the fact that the Andorians had already breached the sanctity of the reliquery, thereby making it only logical that they should be able to follow them in.
quote:
The argument took place right when the andorians are escaping into the catacombs, archer wants to pursue, then the vulcan complains that those chamebers are off limits, but Archer states something to the fact that Andorians have just about seen everything to these secret catacombs so why can't they now.
You're an idiot. The Andorians go into the catacombs after Reed blows up the bomb. There's no evidence the Andorians knew about them BEFORE that, now is there?
No.
Try and use your brain every now and then.
quote:
And WHY are you even trying to refute points that are not casting anything against the show? I've seen your quick tempered arguements in other threads where you "jump to the rescue" of what you percieve as "enterprise bashing", but comon, this is a little more stupid.
Uh ... I'm not leaping to defend Enterprise from legitimate complaints, but since you don't seem to understand half the episode (and since your grammar is bad) a smackdown is called for.
quote:
And another thing, if they didn't know about the catacombs, "uh yeah so?"
what does that have to do with locating the sensor array?
Well ... since its hidden in the catacombs, it has EVERYTHING to do with it, don't you think?
quote:
The andorians are pretty sure the vulcans are hiding it somewhere, so that means automatically they should be searching for secret passage ways don't your think.
Do they have reason to look for secret passages? Personally, I don't understand why the keep raiding the Temple. It's a big fucking moon.
quote:
Idiot.
Yes, you are. You quite obviously didn't understand the episode. Archer & Co. pursue the Andorians into the tunnels -- the Andorians didn't know about the tunnels until Reed blew up the big face -- and then you claim its proof they knew about them all along.
*SMACK*!
quote:
Originally posted by The_Tom:I got the impression that the Andorians had fled that way after the charges went off and so Archer was referring to the fact that the Andorians had already breached the sanctity of the reliquery, thereby making it only logical that they should be able to follow them in.
Thank god, an actual reply that tackles the a point in a correct debate manner.
What your saying, Tom, makes alot of sense.
I might look upon that quote now with a different light, but nevertheless,
The andorians have been there three times and some thing like the catacombs[foundation of a monastery] continnues to elude them each time points to the Andorians capabilities of this era
hehehehe
[ November 01, 2001: Message edited by: TheF0rce ]
How can the andorians miss the catacombs?, and yet still hope that they can find a sensor array?
MS, your an immature egotistical idiot, i can safely say that i never felt the need to so "rudely" refute a person's claims becuase he seems to be wrong[based on my own oppinion], nor can i justify the need to be rude becuase that person may be wrong.
Attacking a person becuase he seems to be wrong and uses phrases that don't agree to you...uh loser!
[ November 01, 2001: Message edited by: TheF0rce ]
quote:
Which is that the Andorian sensor tech. is too poor for its own good. Even the Enterprise sensors can detect the layout of the caves in "terra nova" and how many life forms were in it.
We don't know if Enterprise's scanners can penetrate the rock face beneath the Temple, or if Tucker provided Reed with beam-down coordinates. Different rock types, mind you. Even in TNG, the crew sometimes had difficulties locating structures (think: The High Ground) buried beneath rock.
quote:
How can the andorians miss the catacombs?, and yet still hope that they can find a sensor array?
This sentence makes no sense to me. You seem to be proceeding on the basis that the Andorians knew the sensor array was hidden in the catacombs. However, since they -- as its been pointed out to you on numerous occasions -- didn't know about the catacombs, why would they be looking for them?
Frankly, I don't understand why the Andorians were looking at the Temple at all. Seemed to be to be a big planet they were on.
quote:
MS, your an immature egotistical idiot,
I'd appreciate it if you'd either address me as "Jeff", "Snay", "Malnurtured Snay", "Deer-Killer", or something besides my initials. I don't say, "Hey, that TF is a real jackass, isn't he?" No.
a) I am not immature. I just don't like people who don't know what grammar is, or how to use it. I come down harshly because of it. If you don't like it, try using your "shift" key every now and then, okay?
b) I am not egotistical. I am, however, in this case, completely correct, and you are completely incorrect. This gives me the advantage.
c) I am not an idiot. You're the guy who thought that the Andorians should've known about the catacombs at the same time you're blathering on about how their technology sucks and they're stupid. Think about it, eh?
Now that you've been mashed into a tiny little paste, I'll use you to brush my teeth.
[ November 01, 2001: Message edited by: Malnurtured Snay ]
Unnecessary roughness. Five post penalty for both sides. Reference gets possession of the ball. Both sides must watch 24-hour marathon of Britney Spears and Celine Dion singing opera arias.
I think The_Tom is right about this. The Andorians didn't seem to know about the catacombs until Reed and his assault team were sneaking up the interrogation chamber. After blowing a giant hole into the icon, they snuck in to escape the fire fight. It would also seem to me that the Andorians weren't using their sensors to full power until after they detected the beam-in of the assault team. Being suspicious, they obvious didn't trust the hostages and began scanning the area more thoroughly.
As for why the Andorians didn't detect the sensor platform or communication relay, I think that there is either some sort of sensor-blocker in the catacombs or the surrounding rock offers a counteractive measure. Even Enterprise's sensors didn't detect the sensor station or comm relay. It's likely that Reed would have ordered a full-scan in order to validate the Andorians' claims. Since he didn't say anything or seem to otherwise know, I'll take this as the possibility that Enterprise didn't find it either.
The andorians, at the beginning of the ep, DID NOT know about the catacombs. It is why the Vulcan Cleric said as he showed the doorway to the underground that if the Andorians found out about the catacombs, it would desecrate all that they held important.
It was only after Reed blew up the 'Face' in the Anti-chamber, the Andorians escaped into the underground tunnels, that Archer went to follow them into the 'passageway' that led to the "Secret Artifacts" that Archer said, "Well the Andorian have seen them now, what is it going to harm if a human see them?" AFTER the cleric tries to stop him.
You keep on falling back onto the statement that the Andorians don't know about the catacombs and therefor they would not be searching for secret passage ways, one of my first points.
Uh, if you were an andorian and believe stubbornly that the vulcans, despite being in a temple, are hiding a sensor array where they can keep an eye on it with relative ease, and that the first search revealed the sensor array is obviously not above ground or in plain sight located in one of the monastary rooms...then you must....
Search for secret rooms and entrances!
The vulcans could have been blocking them with sensor jammers,
but the Andorians must know the vulcans would try to hide the array from both sight and scans.
They are not the enterprise, they went there for the third time still convinced that the sensor station is there and know now that is is beyond their sensors detection, and that it is in some secret hideout=catacombs.
People less paranoid than the andorians would have started searching for secret passageways and catacombs in an old monastery a long time ago.
quote:
Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay:
Now that you've been mashed into a tiny little paste, I'll use you to brush my teeth.
[ November 01, 2001: Message edited by: Malnurtured Snay ]
Oh my, more evidence of that loser conduct and need to feed one's ego.
sorry, i'll end it there Sieg.
[ November 01, 2001: Message edited by: TheF0rce ]
quote:
You seem to miss the point that the Andorians were searching the temple three times, over and over, sweeping every room again and again.
I seem to miss the point? You're the one who thought they'd been in the catacombs and failed to look behind a tapestry.
quote:
You keep on falling back onto the statement that the Andorians don't know about the catacombs and therefor they would not be searching for secret passage ways, one of my first points.
They didn't know about the catacombs. I believe I said that because they didn't know about the catacombs, why would they be looking for them?
quote:
if you were an andorian and believe stubbornly that the vulcans, despite being in a temple, are hiding a sensor array where they can keep an eye on it with relative ease, and that the first search revealed the sensor array is obviously not above ground or in plain sight located in one of the monastary rooms...then you must...
LOOK ELSEWHERE ON THE REALLY BIG PLANET?!
quote:
Search for secret rooms and entrances!
Considering the Andorians had been there three times, the secret rooms and entrys must've been hidden REALLY well, don't you think?
Hmmm, The_Force, I think I'm going to keep using you to brush my teeth.
How can anyone over look such a thing....god your an idiot.
Hidden elsewhere on the planet? Why don't they just hide it under the sea!
Becuase the vulcans priests would have no way of keeping an eye on it would they?
I can see how you need to brush your teeth due to all the shit you can spout.
quote:
Hidden really well? Uh the statue face has three holes pointing into the catacombs you moron!
Well, the Andorians didn't notice anything was behind it until Reed blew it up, now did they?
quote:
How can anyone over look such a thing....god your an idiot.
Maybe because they weren't looking for catacombs?
quote:
Hidden elsewhere on the planet? Why don't they just hide it under the sea!
Becuase the vulcans priests would have no way of keeping an eye on it would they?
The Priests weren't keeping an eye on it. In the shot of it, we saw Vulcans wandering around on it. Its clear it had its own crew, and that the one "priest" who pulled his weapon on Archer wasn't really there to study Kohlinar.
quote:
They were searching for an array that was hidden in the temple, its the same thing and requires the same method of search as if they were originally searching for an secret catacomb!
That statement makes no sense.
You make no sense.
Therefore, you are the statement.
They'd been over the Temple 3 times. They hadn't found the relay. I don't see why they kept coming to the Temple, and didn't expand their search to other locations on the planet. Might've made more sense.
Stop resorting to personal attacks since just about everything you've said has been mashed into the ground like an egg dropped from the top of the Empire State Building.
And you're still not using your "enter" or "shift" keys enough.
If they knew about the Catacombs, wouldn't they have spotted that transmitter and destroyed it? Wouldn't they have sealed up the entrence to where the Vulcans were kept so they couldn't escape or reach that transmitter? Wouldn't they have destroyed, damaged, or stolen those sacred relics?
And most of all, wouldn't they have noticed that huge carpet hanging there, and took a look behind it?
quote:
Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay:
That statement makes no sense.
You make no sense.
Therefore, you are the statement.
They'd been over the Temple 3 times. They hadn't found the relay. I don't see why they kept coming to the Temple, and didn't expand their search to other locations on the planet. Might've made more sense.
Stop resorting to personal attacks since just about everything you've said has been mashed into the ground like an egg dropped from the top of the Empire State Building.
And you're still not using your "enter" or "shift" keys enough.
Personal attacks? Thats an empty statement my good man considering you started it, and placed the plea on top and below yet another whole sale wave of your own contradictory diplays.
Anyway, back to the andorian sensors,
which i pointed out from the very start were not very *ahem* advanced.
[shockingly, somebody cared to argue against that when all evidence pointed otherwise]
Of the three points i made in support of the sensor capabilities[or lack of], 3 are still very valid. Even without sensor tech. a modern anti terrorist team would have most likely came upon the catacombs in one of their "raids". Especially since the vulcans never actualy resisted these raids with force. And considering the catacombs were several long corridors that empty into a crypt and a large storage room, it should not have been easy to hide such a layout in the monasteries floor plan and the space beneath it.
I take back my statement that the "Andorians know about the catacombs", since the above mentioned dialogue can also be interpreted in another fashion and in that fashion do hold more water.
But given the three raids by an overly paranoid and stubborn force that insits upon the array being in the monastery and no where else, you can see how i was led to believe that the Andorians must have known about the catacombs.
"Also, why do they not keep it somewhere else on the planet?"
Simple, criminal phsyc. 101 states that 80% of the time a person trying to hide something would actualy keep it quite close to themselves or a place where they can have easy access to so as to be able to check upon it. Since the few vulcan monks [responsible for overseeing it] cannot check upon it's security with a scanner before prayer, they have to resort hiding it in their own catacombs. There were people inside the array but those were tech. workers who were hardly responsible for making sure no one approached it from the outside. After all if someone started poking around the entranceway when the facility was hidden elsewhere, what should tech guys do?
[ November 01, 2001: Message edited by: TheF0rce ]
Now here's where we get into my problems with the episode. First off, I'd like to say that I enjoyed this episode very much. It was good to see Weyoun again. (Jeffery Combs Rules!) It was great to see some really good bad guys, and it's always a hoot to see the Captain get worked. The scene with T'pol was pretty funny despite her stiffness.
1) Three holes, right? Three trained security officers with phase pistols. Couldn't they have taken down team blue right quick without destroying any precious Vulcan artifacts? I guess Reed really is gonna be a trigger-happy. 2) Ok, from the first moment we discover than the Andorians are looking for the sensor station I knew that there actually was one there. That didn't bother me so much, as I'll tack it up to my superior intellect (he's kidding, really). 3) What did bother me was that Archer would expose the Vulcan listening post. (3.5) I mean not to mention: 'Time Out'. Like a paranoid Andorian is gonna stop shooting in the middle of a gun-fight because they found a big metal disk. I was kind of hoping, that the Vulcan monk would have shot the Andorians on the threshhold of the listening center (tr�s cool, IMHO), and Captain Archer would have been inadvertently involved in a cover-up. As it ended, there's gonna be a big mess not only between the Andorians and the Vulcans, but also the humans and the Vulcans. There was no reason, Archer had to give the Andorians that evidence, and we know from TOS that whatever friendship Earth establishes with the Andorians is short-lived. All told, I was a little disappointed. But for once it was because I really thought the episode was going somewhere. Little flat, really...
quote:
Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay:
Well, the Andorians didn't notice anything was behind it until Reed blew it up, now did they?
quote:
Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay:
Maybe because they weren't looking for catacombs?
quote:
Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay:
The Priests weren't keeping an eye on it. In the shot of it, we saw Vulcans wandering around on it. Its clear it had its own crew, and that the one "priest" who pulled his weapon on Archer wasn't really there to study Kohlinar.
[ November 01, 2001: Message edited by: TheF0rce ]
quote:
Originally posted by Balaam Xumucane:
I was kind of hoping, that the Vulcan monk would have shot the Andorians on the threshhold of the listening center (tr�s cool, IMHO), and Captain Archer would have been inadvertently involved in a cover-up
Thats very true, it would have made more sense if that vulcan shot and killed those two Andorians who have now seen the array with their own eyes.
It would have even more highlighted how devilish the vulcans can be.
I would loved to have seen archer's face after the vulcan did that and then made a threat to archer.
We will even get some interesting reaction from T'pual, who did show confusion and misgivings toward the affair.
[ November 01, 2001: Message edited by: TheF0rce ]
BalaamThe relations between the Andorians and humans didn't last long? I don't remember that. Do you remember which episode that was in?
Everyone still on topic: I think that it could be fairly easy for the Andorians to miss the catacombs on three searchs. What if the room where the hostages were kept is the only room with access into the catacombs? Is all of their religious icons really are down there, it would make some sense to have only one entrance to protect the secret. It would also be easy to overlook a seam or plane separation since it wasn't the entire wall that slid aside to open the catacombs -- it was just the fireplace or whatever that thing was.
Here's another reason that Andorians might not have suspected there being an underground network of tunnels. What if they weren't looking for something as massive as the sensor station turned out to be? They were searching personal quarters, so it seems that the sensor platforms they were looking for was about that size (let's say about 10' by 10'). The Andorians probably also didn't know that Vulcan sensor technology was so good that they could build a massive sensor station and plant and operate it from under the surface of the planet. The Andorian and Enterprise sensors couldn't pick up anything from below the surface of the planet; yet, the Vulcans could sneak an active sensor platform. Look at everyone's faces when they all see the sensor platform. Everyone from the terrorist to Archer to T'Pol is shocked by it. The Andorian leader shouldn't have been shocked by it because he knew it was there (on the planet near the monastery in general not the exact location), but he was shocked and I chalk this up to the sheer size and sophistication of it.
Another comment was about no one shooting Archer when he called for a "cease fire." I can find that believable because the gang is sitting in a holy chamber and behind the tapestry is a big metal door. Everything else in the catacombs had been without any sort of power or doors (let alone anything with a metallic framing). When everyone saw the door, they all knew instinctively that something was up. Then, they might have been in a position to stop firing to investigate. This is especially true for the Andorians since this could prove their case.
Anyway, i agree, everyone in the room were too shocked by what they saw to continue doing anything.
{except for that vulcan who must have kicked himself in the pants for firing on that tapestry]
It really was all his fualt for exposing the array. LOL hehehe
[ November 01, 2001: Message edited by: TheF0rce ]
The F0rce and Malnurtured Snay, calm the hell down! Both of you need to stop antagonizing each other!
It was fairly clear that the Andorians DID NOT KNOW about the catacombs, BECAUSE THEY WERE HIDDEN BEHIND A SECRET DOOR. That was the whole point of having catacombs BEHIND A SECRET DOOR in the plot, so the Andorians WOULD NOT KNOW ABOUT THEM.
quote:
Thats very true, it would have made more sense if that vulcan shot and killed those two Andorians who have now seen the array with their own eyes.
It would have even more highlighted how devilish the vulcans can be...
Um...you obviously don't have a very good conception of what sort of race the Vulcans are. Or perhaps you were being sarcastic.
quote:
The relations between the Andorians and humans didn't last long? I don't remember that. Do you remember which episode that was in?
Well, it was pretty obvious in "Journey to Babel" that none of the four principle races (Humans, Vulcans, Tellarites, and Andorians) got along like best buddies. The relations are still more or less intact, but tensions are high.
-MMoM
It seems to me that it might be possible that, uh, Combs' group of Andorians never get along with Vulcans, and become those renegades we heard about in TNG.
quote:
Originally posted by Balaam Xumucane:
The scene with T'pol was pretty funny despite her stiffness. Three holes, right?
Snicker...
(sorry, feeling silly today)
The Andorian government says "We can't find a spy satellite!"
Combs's character, "?! Let's go find it ourselves!"
Seems to me, if it was an actual government operation, there'd be more troops.
(well that the simplest explanation anyway and seems the most likely. ) Those of you that like to do non-simple explanations can say that the Romulans got to Romulus without having space travel. Occam doesnt like you.
Which raises the question.. Vulcan civilization seems to have hit a plateau, or even stagnated until they met the humans, who helped them make great strides in science and politics by the time of TNG when they are Federated and all of the super-TNG technology is developed.
Why do I think "The Andorian Incident" is the worst Enterprise episode so far?
1. Plot logic: Why do Reed and his team have to damage the monastery, endanger their lives and those of the hostages, if they could simply have beamed up the Andorians (they were only four)? Why do Archer and his crew try to "save" the Vulcan treasure chamber by following the Andorians and destroying half of the artifacts? They must have assumed that it was a dead end and should have just waited. Why has none of the humans ever heard of the Andorians, although the Vulcan database is permanently available?
2. Hideous Vulcans: These are simply not the Vulcans I know. Agreed, they (or better: some of them) may have their dark sides, but since the seventh DS9 season Star Trek is systematically destroying their reputation.
3. Archer's anti-Vulcan attitude: He was only looking for such an opportunity, and although he has not the faintest idea what the Vulcan-Andorian conflict is actually about, he takes the part of the Andorians.
4. Violence: Excessive beating and shooting just doesn't suit the series and can much less compensate for the lack of a good story with real suspense.
5. Trek spirit (or lack thereof): Aside from the evil Vulcans, Archer's rash decision and the violence, there is no discussion about the conflict except for statements from paranoid Andorians and Vulcans. There is also no bottom line to the episode. As a viewer I was as disappointed as the characters in the end. The fight of the peaceful but sneaky against the violent but straightforward will continue, but I just don't want to see it.
quote:
Originally posted by Bernd:
2. Hideous Vulcans: These are simply not the Vulcans I know. Agreed, they (or better: some of them) may have their dark sides, but since the seventh DS9 season Star Trek is systematically destroying their reputation.
Guess you never watched "Amok Time" or Star Trek VI, both of which featured Vulcans acting in exactly the same fashion... and both of which predate the seventh season of Deep Space Nine by some time. T'Pring was manipulative and had no qualms about either Kirk or Spock being killed. T'Pau, held in great esteem by humans and Vulcans alike, was openly derisive of humans. "Art thee Vulcan, or art thee human," she sneered, with dripping contempt. Then she conveniently forgot to mention that the fight was to the death, and refused to let the unfamiliar Kirk decline once it was revealed. And this was the first appearance of any Vulcans other than Spock! Valeris was a liar and traitor who plotted to begin a war between two massive empires. I'm afraid you're suffering from a case of selective memory.
You admitted that some Vulcans have dark sides, so frankly I'm confused by why this is any different. I submit that recent portrayals have been no more dark. All that the producers have done with Enterprise is what they've done always done: showing the Vulcans to be capable of just as much individuality as anyone else.
The more important issue is that if the Vulcans are truly logical, there is no room for emotional concerns about offense or even honor. Self-defense is logical, and if that means keeping the potentially dangerous humans "contained" and breaking a treaty to avoid invasion from the Andorians, then there is no logical reason not to do these things. It may well be that these lessons are what turns the Vulcans into the generally acceptable people you remember from chronologically-later Star Trek... even if "Amok Time," Star Trek VI, and "Take Me Out to the Holosuite" prove that there are still some pointy-eared assholes around. After all, "Breaking the Ice" shows that T'Pol is mellowing quite a bit. I bet her reaction is typical of Vulcans who spend time around humans, and with the warp five engine, a lot more interaction is bound to happen.
[ November 10, 2001: Message edited by: Ryan McReynolds ]
quote:
1. Plot logic: Why do Reed and his team have to damage the monastery, endanger their lives and those of the hostages, if they could simply have beamed up the Andorians (they were only four)?
Last time I checked, even in TNG, the primary means of locking on to a person with a transporter is through their com-badges. To do it by any other means would have been a bit difficult. With transporters being a very new technology in Enterprise and with sensors not exactly being as good as they were in TOS, TNG, DS9, or VOY, I doubt beaming up the Andorians would have been as easy as you made it out to be.
Silly humans, holes are for shooting through!
"I'd have to say that the mere presence of Jeffrey Combs makes this a superior episode."
In other words, the actual quality is unimportant? So, if Combs had played a crewman in the background of "Threshold", it would have been one of the best episodes ever?
Honestly, I thought Combs was severely underused in "The Andorian Incident". His presence can't help the episode much when he hardly does anything.
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Guess you never watched "Amok Time" or Star Trek VI, both of which featured Vulcans acting in exactly the same fashion...
Not exactly. In "Amok Time" it was somehow part of their culture, and T'Pau's behavior may be explained in that she felt disturbed by the presence of aliens who have never taken part in such a ceremony before. On other occasions we have seen a certain arrogance and sneakiness of Vulcan too, but this was never shown as something intrinisically bad. It was usually shown as a typical trait that in some rare cases developed like in ST VI.
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I'd have to say that the mere presence of Jeffrey Combs makes this a superior episode.
Why that? Combs didn't get a chance to show more than an Andorian who always asks the same questions and smashes bones and communicators.
ps-Incidentally, Dukhat, I would have to say that your own namesake would almost certainly be my fav DS9 villian. Greatest ST villian? C'mon, no one can hold a candle to Khan.
[ November 12, 2001: Message edited by: Balaam Xumucane ]
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His nervous energy was palpable. His contempt for the Vulcans was handled well.
Agreed on that. It is only that it was a one-dimensional thing. I mean, although Combs did have a certain share of the screen time, the role had not very much diversity. He was only showing his rage and shouting at the hostages. There were, for instance, no consultations with his people and there was no real change of the situation to him, except for the very end.
(1) Q. Why didn't reed shoot from the hole in the wall?
A. The second one Andorian went down the other three would know exactly where Reed and and his elite team of red shirts are. When you are shooting at an enemy from a tiny hole it's pretty f**king easy for the enemy to take cover. If they had any, the Andorians would've probably pulled out a grenade (or the 22nd century, Andorian equivalent of one) and blow the little face-wall-sculpture thing inward toward Reed and his marry men, killing, if not seriously injuring them.
(2) Q. Why didn't the Reed just beam down some stun grenades at the Andorians location?
A. Well. As stated in the episode, the Andorians will hear the stun grenades re-materializing. Sense the grenades are re-materializing at their exact location, they probably would spot them before they were done. Being extremely suspicious in nature, they would have either, destoryed the grenades before they could go off, or they would have cleared the room.
By doing the whole stun grenade thing, Reed would be taking a huge risk that if just one of the Andorians made it un-stuned, that Andorian would execute the hostages. Where as if he and his marry men were there in person there was a lower chance of that happening sense an un-stunned Andorian would have been pursued and most likely stopped before he would have the chance to execute any of the hostages.
[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: MIB ]
And, while you're at it, look up "marry" and "merry".
[ November 15, 2001: Message edited by: MIB ]