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Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
 
Remember "Trials and Tribble-ations", where the temporal cop corrected his compatriot in that there were, in fact, six Enterprises? Now, that line has usually been interpreted to mean that he knew about the E-E, but what if he was a history buff and knew about the pre-E? Or even had gone over some older time-travel records?
 

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Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
 
If he already knew about the NX Enterprise and intended to include it in his correction, he would have said SEVEN instead of SIX as he would still need to include the E-E. And then if he included that "Declaration class" starliner, he would have said EIGHT, and then if he wanted to include the space shuttle, he would have said NINE.

And this is assumming you're saying he said SIX because he knew of the NX Enterprise and you're counting 1701 through 1701-D and not including -E, which would be odd since we all know it exists at that time.
 

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Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
 
While it's possible, I doubt that its probable. The destruction of the Federation flagship had to have been big news, so I'd bet that the story would be followed through the investigations into the Enterprise-D's death up to the launch and commissioning of the Enterprise-E. In other words, I think it would have been a big news story that everyone would know about.

Also, I can't remember for certain, but I want to say that the scene was set up in that it was implied that the three of them were strictly talking about Federation Starfleet ships named Enterprise. But I'm not sure about that.
 

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Posted by Ferg (Member # 828) on :
 
Well, we could say that since the E-E had just been launched, the Time cops probably knew it couldn't have been that one Sisko was talking about? Of course the REAL reason was that this this episode was made before the Pre-E was thought up but still it's fun to make excuses!
 

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Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
 
Well, "Trials and Tribble-ations" is the sixth episode of season 5; best guesses place First Contact as being set roughly mid-season, right? So that gives us three options:

1. Second TBI Guy corrects First TBI Guy because TBI1 has missed or forgotten the announcement of the commissioning/launching of the E-E.

2. TBI2 reminds TBI1 of the often-forgotten NX-E, and doesn't count the E-E because it hadn't been launched yet/had only just been launched, and Sisko had already made clear in his initial report that he went back in time, giving him six Enterprises to choose from but not a seventh given it is effectively in the future.

3. "Enterprise" wasn't even a gleam in Rick Berman's eye back then and the dialogue was a blatant plug for the upcoming film, due to be released a couple of weeks after this episode.
 

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Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
 
Star Trek Answer: 2

Real World Answer: 3


 

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Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
 
I'm glad we settled this one, guys. This thread has been a roller coaster ride of theories, corroboration of real-life producers intentions, and conflicting viewpoints made whole. The issues discussed were controversial, and at times nearly explosive. good work paring the facts down to the truth contained within.. There were times, during the middle, when I thought no conclusion could be reached. We must continue to focus, however, as our attentiveness to other matters as severe as this, or more severe than this is the price we pay for holding up the torch of the highest caliber of fandom.

Ooh look!! A dog with a puffy tail!


[ June 13, 2002, 19:56: Message edited by: CaptainMike ]
 

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Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
 
Well, the E-E could still be included even if "Trials and Tribble-ations" took place before FC as Geordi mentions that she had been out for nearly a year at the time of FC. That means there's still around half a year that Sisko could go back in time and visit the early months of the E-E
 

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Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
 
they said six enterprises. they meant the 1701, the 1701-A, the 1701-B, the 1701-C, the 1701-D, and when he corrected him, meaning the recently built 1701-E. this was a plug/reference for the upcoming film. the reason NX-01 may not have been included is because it wasnt a Federation starship.. presumably when Sisko was telling the story, he told them exactly what they said on the bridge of his ship.. 'i'm detecting a Federation starship' or somesuch, thereby removing the NX-01, the SS Enterprise XCV-330, the WWI motorboat Enterprise and the HMS Enterprize from consideration.

why are we making this more complicated?
 

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Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
 
Because Omega made this complicated when he began the thread.

BTW, if I remember the dialog correctly, they never made namy mention of it being a Federation ship until they actually saw the ship.

[ June 13, 2002, 21:23: Message edited by: Dat ]
 

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Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
 
But we entered the original discussion more or less in mid-sentence. We have no idea how thoroughly Sisko was prepped by the agents, or vice versa, before the point of "you are number six" came up. The subject could have been narrowed down to UFP Starfleet ships already.

Or perhaps they were actually talking about how many examples of NCC-1701 (no bloody suffix) had existed throughout multiple timeline revisions? Sisko would say "And so our crew went back to James T. Kirk's Enterprise, NCC-1701", to which Dulmur and Lucsly: "Which of them? There have been five..." "No, six!" "... of them." Sisko: "Huh? How can there be six of one ship?" "Never mind. Forget we said that. It was just a weather balloon reflecting Venus onto interstellar gas anyway. In fact, I'd like you to watch this red light very carefully..."

Timo Saloniemi
 

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 
According to the script, we don't hear Sisko telling that part of the story. We see the flashback of it happening. Then we come back to:

          DULMUR
Be specific, Captain. Which
Enterprise? There've been five.
          LUCSLY
Six.
          SISKO
This was the first Enterprise.
Constitution class.

So, just before this, Sisko could have said something like "it was the USS Enterprise". That "USS" would have limited the choices to six.

[ June 14, 2002, 00:16: Message edited by: TSN ]
 

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Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
 
Of course, no-one knows yet how ENT will end or how exactly this Temporal War will change things.
 

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Posted by Eclipse (Member # 472) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by TSN:
According to the script, we don't hear Sisko telling that part of the story. We see the flashback of it happening. Then we come back to:

          DULMUR
Be specific, Captain. Which
Enterprise? There've been five.
          LUCSLY
Six.
          SISKO
This was the first Enterprise.
Constitution class.

So, just before this, Sisko could have said something like "it was the USS Enterprise". That "USS" would have limited the choices to six.

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It's Dulmer, not Dulmur. Both the agents' names are anagrams of the infamous duo from the X-Files, Mulder and Scully.

[ June 14, 2002, 03:59: Message edited by: Eclipse ]
 

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Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
 
Well, Sisko saying "the first one" seems to imply that either he thought that the "six" bit meant the E-E, or that he thought the comment insufficiently confusing to ask about. Oh, well.
 

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Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
 
You're all forgetting that people in the 24th century HATE the Enterprise NX-01. After all, it's crew was responsible for the "disastrous" first contact with the Klingons. They hate it so much that they try to forget that it even existed. And they certainly did a very good job of forgetting about it, too.
 

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Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
 
There is no evidence whatsoever that everyone in the 24th century hates the NX Enterprise. We just don't here it being discussed onscreen. They could still be talking about her offscreen when we aren't there. Talking and saying she was this and that with some saying she was great or whatever.
 

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Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
 
By that same token, the people of the 24th century must really hate the space shuttle Enterprise, the carriers Enterprise, most of the sailing ships Enterprise, and the Declaration-class Enterprise to that as well.

Come to think of it, they don't talk about the Enterprise-B, either. They must really hate that ship for "killing" James T. Kirk. Oh, the Enterprise-C has only been mentioned a couple times. Better add that too, since she's hating for "losing" to the Romulans and all. You know, the Enterprise-A isn't mentioned all that much, either. Hmmm...

The ultimate reason is everyone hates the Enterprise except for the original 1701. I mean, watch "Relics" and see the clear disdain Scotty has for the -A, -B, -C, and -D. I bet he hates the -E, too, just because.

[ June 14, 2002, 09:43: Message edited by: Siegfried ]
 

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Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
 
Apparently no one understands a good joke anymore. Sheesh...
 

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Posted by koy'peled Oy'tio (Member # 796) on :
 
let me get this straight...

NX
Enterprise
Enterprise-A
Enterprise-B
Enterprise-C
Enterprise-D
Enterprise-E

yep thats seven alright
 

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Posted by The BWC (Member # 818) on :
 
Now with the E nobody talks abnout the D. On the same token, nobody mentioned, except for a couple occasions (for instace, First Contact), the E as well.
 

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Posted by Snay (Member # 411) on :
 
WOW!

Koy'cainehead can COUNT! Good job, there. Now, if we can just get you to add, subtract, multiply and divide ...

Like usual, Buzzed With Crack isn't making any sense. I don't know why I'm surprised -- he never does.
 

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 

"It's Dulmer, not Dulmur. Both the agents' names are anagrams of the infamous duo from the X-Files, Mulder and Scully."

Don't tell me. Tell Ron Moore and Rene Echevarria. They're the ones who wrote the script...
 

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Posted by Snay (Member # 411) on :
 
Or tell whoever wrote the transcript. Or copied it.
 

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Posted by Fedaykin Supastar (Member # 704) on :
 
on soemthing which doesnt even matter..
did we ever learnt the name of the first officer on the Enterprise-B? during its maiden voyage?
...and just to stir things up..
wat are the names of the Captains and First officers that have ever held that position on a federation starship named Enterprise.
(include Robert April)

thanks

Buzz
 

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Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
 
I accept your challenge, suh!

NCC-1701:
CO Robert April with
XO Unknown
CO Christopher Pike with
XO Number One
CO James T. Kirk with
XO Spock (was Spock XO in "Where No Man Has Gone Before" or was Gary Mitchell? I can't remember)
CO Will Decker with
XO Xon (Phase II stuff here)
CO James T. Kirk with
XO Will Decker (ST:TMP)
CO Spock with
XO Sulu? Uhura? Scotty? (early ST:TWoK)
CO James T. Kirk with
XO Spock (latter ST:TWoK)
CO James T. Kirk with
XO Montgomery Scott (ST:TSfS -- speculative based on Scotty being number two for the destruct sequence)

NCC-1701-A:
CO James T. Kirk
XO Spock

NCC-1701-B:
CO John (some say James) Harriman
XO Doesn't arrive until Tuesday

NCC-1701-C:
CO Rachel Garrett with
XO Unknown although Chris Castillo filled that role during "Yesterday's Enterprise." Once the Enterprise-C returned to her own time, he became the CO and probably Tasha Yar filled in for a short-lived XO capacity.

NCC-1701-D:
CO Jean-Luc Picard with
XO William T. Riker
CO William T. Riker with
XO Shelby (Best of Both Worlds)
CO Edward Jellico with
XO William T. Riker (Chains of Command)

NCC-1701-E:
CO Jean-Luc Picard
XO William T. Riker

[ June 14, 2002, 23:40: Message edited by: Siegfried ]
 

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Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
 
oooh.. noncanon info opportunity

USS Enterprise, NCC-1701

CO: Capt. Robert April ("The Counter-Clock Incident")
XO: Cmdr. Lorna Simon ("Best Destiny"). The novel "Final Frontier" also establishes that, for one mission, security Cmdr. George Samuel Kirk served in this position.

CO: Capt. Christopher R. Pike ("The Cage").
XO: Lt. Cmdr. Number One (The novel "Vulcan's Glory" states 'Number One' was named such as she came from an Earth Colony, Ilyria, that practiced eugenics through selective breeding, and she was the prime candidate for the year she was born. The [u]Early Voyages[/u] comic states that her given name is Robbins, although it could be reconciled that an Earth surname appears on her records as a supplement to her colonial Ilyrian apellation). In the last mission chronicled in the comic series, while Pike was presumed dead and Number One was severely injured in battle, command of the Enterprise was assumed by Commodore Robert April, who named helmsman Lt. Sita Mohindas as his executive. The story was never published, though.

CO: Capt. James T. Kirk ("Where No Man Has Gone Before").
XO: Lt. Cmdr. Spock ("Where No Man Has Gone Before"). Some sources posit that Lt. Cmdr. Gary Mitchell was the original first officer, but I think this is unlikely, as science officer Spock would have no reason to wear command gold unless he was already serving as first officer at that point. Of course, he switched to science blue for the rest of his tenure as first officer due to his double position. Also, Mitchell wore beige (the precursor to the operations red uniform color) rather than command gold.

CO: Capt. Willard Decker
XO: *UNDECIDED* (Decker commanded the vessel during its refit, an 18 month period. Out of active service, it's unclear who would have been an XO, or if one was required for a non-active assignment. It's likely the position would've gone to Lt. Cmdr. Hikaru Sulu had the refit been completed as scheduled.)

CO: Adm. James T. Kirk
XO: Capt. Willard Decker (After Decker's apparent demise, the position was passed on to Cmdr. Spock)

CO: Capt. Spock
XO: Cmdr. Hikaru Sulu (This is the supposition of several novels, assuming that Scotty's duties as chief engineer precluded him from taking a command position higher than second officer, despite his seniority).

USS Enterprise, NCC-1701-A

CO: Capt. James T. Kirk
XO: Capt. Spock

USS Enterprise, NCC-1701-B

CO: Capt. John Harriman
XO: Cmdr. Tracey Dane ("The Captain's Daughter"). She arrived on the Tuesday after everything happened.

USS Enterprise, NCC-1701-C

CO: Capt. Rachel Garrett
XO: *UNKNOWN* (I'm sure this data was revealed in one a them thar novels I haven't read, Vulcan's Heart of Glory or somethin'). Seems the position was ceded to Castillo, and then maybe the command team of Castillo and Yar, only for the duration of the last battle. His first name was Richard, by the way, not Chris. But only his mother called him that

USS Enterprise, NCC-1701-D

CO: Capt. Jean-Luc Picard, briefly replaced by W. T. Riker, briefly replaced by Ed Jellico
XO: Cmdr. William T. Riker, briefly replaced by Elizabeth P. Shelby (under Riker), briefly replaced by Data (under Jellico)

the fake future in 'Future Imperfect' had a Riker- Data team

the fake future in 'AGT' had Adm. Riker with no budget left for extras to play and XO

USS Enteprise, NCC-1701-E

CO: Capt. Jean-Luc Picard
XO: Cmdr. William T. Riker

NEMESIS SPOILER

$

$

$

replaced by some Cmdr. Ed Madden dude, right?

an interesting alternate timeline in Q-Squared had an alternate Enterprise-D commanded by Capt. Jack Crusher, with XO Cmdr. Jean-Luc Picard, busted in rank for losing the Stargazer.

In 'Imzadi' the Enterprise-F was commanded by Commodore Data, with XO and science officer Cmdr. Blair, an allasomorph.

In 'DS9: Millennium' the E-E was destroyed saving the Rigel systems from a terrorist moon-crashing plot, and Picard and Riker commanded the E-F. Riker took over when Picard was promoted, with XO Tom Paris. They all died at the hands of the Grigari, who destroyed Earth.

*whew*

[ June 15, 2002, 00:19: Message edited by: CaptainMike ]
 

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Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
 
Between the two of us, I hope we've answered Fedaykin's challenge.
 

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Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
 
OK, now I want to read that Millenium book. . .
 

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Posted by Fedaykin Supastar (Member # 704) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Siegfried:
Fedaykin's challenge.

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