posted
Once again, our search for clues moves forward a notch. What was said or left unsaid on the subject in "TATV"?
As I understand it, there was no mention of the Romulan conflict as such. Which of the following were explicitly established, though?
-Timestamp of 2161 -This is the de facto and de jure founding of the United Federation of Planets -This is an alliance in which Earth is part -Earth is an equal partner -The alliance is military in nature -There is no war ongoing at the time of the founding speech -There hasn't been a war of note in the recent past
posted
By saying that it's the alliance that will give birth to the Federation, Troi possibly means that this is this initial formation of the Federation that will eventually become the Federation they know in their time.
Everything Daniels ever said indicated tha Archer had a part in the formation of the UFP.
-timestamp really is 2161. -the ceremony does tie into UFP founding. -Earth, Vulcan, Andor and Tellar are seemingly equal partners in it.
Nothing about the nature of the alliance, though. It certainly doesn't sound military, not with that "thousands of planets within reach" rationale. And nothing to suggest past or present war. At this point, I'd actually be happiest if the Romulan war happened AFTER these events, say, beginning with 2161 (a Romulan counterreaction to the forming of this coalition?)...
In any case, reading the transcript gave me no hint why Riker found the scenario relevant to what he was going through.
posted
The episode doesn't really change that. I think it had something to do with Trip being so eager to incinerate himself to kill some utterly forgetful aliens-of-the-week.
For a moment, I hoped the unexpected attack was from either Romulans or one of their proxies.
posted
You know, having the Romulan War occur after the founding of the UFP would fit in with established events on Enterprise. That is, the Romulan's using the holo-drones to discourage the forming of an alliance, etc.
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posted
Did they actually say "2161" at any point? I know someone said they had been on the ship for ten years, but it could be late 2160, and they were rounding up.
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posted
I remember the old FASA RPG game manuals placing the Romulan Wars with the Federation as opposed to just Earth. While Okuda and the offical keepers of all things Trek say it happened before the forming of the UFP, nothing canon would really be violated with it happening afterwards either.
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posted
1. The TATV event is clearly supposed to be the actual signing of the Federation Charter. It's the same event shown to Archer and identified as such by Daniels in last season's finale "Zero Hour," complete with UFP seal prominently displayed.
2. Someone should conduct a more thorough inspection of statements regarding the Romulan War and the Founding to determine whether or not a post-UFP RW is workable within the Canon. There is, of course, Spock's statement in "Balance of Terror" (TOS) that the war was an "Earth-Romulan conflict," though some might argue that this is in line with other "Earth" references in the first season before TPTB had come up with the UFP.
3. Even if #2 concludes in the affirmative, it should not necessarily be construed that such was the case. After all, it has been stated by such individuals as D.C. Fontana since the sixties that it was the RW which directly led to the Founding, and while ENT has not been a series to balk at repudiating long-standing popular dogma where Trek history is concerned, I doubt there was an intent to do so in this instance. More likely, the lack of mention in TATV is merely the result of poor writing or a desire to leave that area as open as possible for the next film to deal with.
4. In corollary to the above, we will undoubtedly receive more information and clarification on this issue with the continuing development and ultimate release of the next feature film.
-MMoM
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posted
Assuming it ends up having anything to do with that topic. At this point all we've got are the vaguest of rumors. By the time they hire the last writer to write the final draft of the script and the studio agrees to make it it could be about, well, anything.
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quote: Someone should conduct a more thorough inspection of statements regarding the Romulan War and the Founding to determine whether or not a post-UFP RW is workable within the Canon.
It's not all that difficult. TOS has only a single monologue relevant to this: "...a line of Earth outpost stations. Constructed on asteroids, they monitor the Neutral Zone established by treaty after the Earth-Romulan conflict a century ago. As you may recall, this conflict was fought, by standards today, with primitive atomic weapons and in primitive space vessels which allowed no quarter, no captives, nor was there even ship-to-ship visual communication. Therefore, no human, Romulan, or ally has ever seen the other. Earth believes the Romulans to be warlike, cruel, treacherous, and only the Romulans know what they think of Earth. The treaty, set by sub-space radio, established this Neutral Zone, entry into which by either side would constitute an act of war. The treaty has been unbroken since that time."
"A century ago" is vague for something spoken by Spock. If we accept the coincidence that this means exactly 36,500 days (perhaps the Romulans deliberately chose to attack on the centennial?), then the war ended in 2165 at the very earliest, in 2167 at the very latest. A ten percent fudge factor would allow it to take place before 2161, though. Also, the treaty may have come several years after the war, fudging things further.
"Earth" is used to indicate one of the historical combatants, but "Earth" also clearly denotes the Kirk/Spock/Enterprise side as of the 2260s when Spock speaks of how that side sees the Romulans.
UFP founding is nailed down as 2161 by Troi's comment in "The Outcast": "The Federation was founded in twenty-one-sixty-one." No two ways about it. Earth-alien alliances preceding that date are possible, however.
Connection between the Romulan War and the UFP Founding is vague. In "Homefront", Sisko says "They'll wage the kind of war Earth hasn't seen since the founding of the Federation". So a big war may have IMMEDIATELY followed the founding, or then preceded it by an unknown amount of time. Judging by lack of references in ENT, there was no such war prior to 2155. However, Sisko could be referring to the exceptional Xindi style of warfare, that is, merciless planeticide. Thus, no "actual", conventional war need have accompanied the UFP founding. And even if there was such war, it need not have been the Romulan one.
Was the Romulan war a big one? People of Kirk's time need to be reminded of the details - would this be true of members of today's Russian or Japanese military if queried on the Russo-Japanese war that ended a century ago? We never get overall casualty figures or mention of conquered or devastated planets. Only military casualties are ever mentioned, namely the Stiles family.
It seems to me that canon doesn't constrain us much when inserting the Romulan War into the timeline. Dates between 2155 and the late 2170s are all plausible; length and scale of conflict can be chosen rather freely; participating players may include "black horses" on both sides, implicit in Spock's reference to allies. Weapons used need to be "atomic" and "primitive" by 2260s standards, but we did see in "IaMD" that there actually is a quantum difference between ENT and TOS weaponry, so at least the latter requirement is met. All we need to do is classify photonic torps and/or phase cannon as "atomic weapons" (a term that no longer is synonymous with fission or fusion bombs in the 2000s, and thus need not be in the 2260s, either) and we're done.
Topic Closed
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