Hi fellow trekkers I was just wondering if there as been given any hits about what this super weapon that is being built by the xindi is? The reason that I ask is and somewhat hoping that it could be the Doomsday machine. Cause how else would Kirk know about it and if the federation at some point destroyed the xindi who build it caused the machine to wonder off and comeback in the future were the Constellation ran into it. Just wondering and thanks
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Kirk knew about it because it frikkin tried to eat his ship. No Kzinti (sorry, 'Xindi') involved.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Yeah. The setup for "The Doomsday Machine" is, more or less: Starfleet: "Hey, that's a weird sensor reading. And where did the Constellation go? Hey, Enterprise, go find out."
Actually, I don't remember if the Constellation was missing when the episode started or not. Or, for that matter, if they were sent to find said machine or if they just stumbled across it. Hmm. So, I guess this post is kind of unhelpful. Unless it isn't.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Actually, IIRC, the beginning involved the discovery of the destroyed solar systems and all of the subspace interference, meanwhile the white-Uhura (Palmer) picked up a faint distress call of the Constellation....
Kirk knew nothing of the device, and Spock said that it most likely came from outside our galaxy. The Xindi are in our galaxy.
Posted by Galen (Member # 72) on :
Of course with B&B in charge anything could happen. They don't seem concerned with how their stories will affect established lore. We could say that it would be impossible that it could be the planet killer, only to find out that the Xindi did in fact build it in the universe of NX-01. Of course Kirk didn't know about it until it tried to eat his ship. He and Spock only postulated on its origins. I would find the Xindi creation of the planet killer far more believable than the events of last season's "Regeneration."
Posted by Pwesty (Member # 1035) on :
About Kirk knowing about the Machine, it sounds like to me that he knew about it BEFORE going on the 1017. Decker was describing what they had been attack by and Kirk KNEW what he was talking about, so somewhere before the Doomsday Machine had been encountered by someone, in other word how would Kirk know about it with out see it!
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
The Xindi superweapon is not going to be the Doomsday machine, because Enterprise has nothing to do with TOS. Because if it did, Spock would have said something to the effect of, "Well, that race of people you guys went to war with 100 years ago had a similar planet-killing machine, which took a big chunk out of Florida. Remember them, Jim? Who were those guys called again?..." But he didn't say anything of the sort.
And I'm surprised that no one has mentioned just how stupid the Xindi are. They are in the process of building a super-weapon, but first they built a prototype. What do they then do with that prototype? They use it on the planet that they want to use the main weapon on! Wouldn't it have been more logical to target an insignificant planet for the test? Now Earth knows it's being targeted, so that it can make preparations to defend itself from the future sneak-attack. Silly Braga.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Futurama Guy: Kirk knew nothing of the device, and Spock said that it most likely came from outside our galaxy. The Xindi are in our galaxy.
According to Spock, 99% of the things they encountered "most likely came from outside our galaxy." Including Chekov. Probably.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Good one. Let's hope that the proper production-model of the Xindi superweapon is able to attack in more than one dimension, at least two. Or are they going to scratch the Earth to death?
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
DO NOT MOCK ME SIR!!!
Posted by Triton (Member # 1043) on :
I seriously doubt that the Doomsday Machine is the Xindi super weapon. It has been revealed by Future Guy that the Xindi are interested in destroying the Earth so that people from Earth do not annihilate their race in the future. The Doomsday Machine on the other hand destroys all planets, stars, space bodies, and starships in its path to break them down for fuel. The pieces are swallowed by the large maw and then digested.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pwesty: About Kirk knowing about the Machine, it sounds like to me that he knew about it BEFORE going on the 1017. Decker was describing what they had been attack by and Kirk KNEW what he was talking about, so somewhere before the Doomsday Machine had been encountered by someone, in other word how would Kirk know about it with out see it!
I don't think so. He was making an analogy about weapons like the H-bomb that no sane persons would ever use.
As to it's coming from outside the galaxy, Spock inferred that by plotting a course back through the line of destroyed solar systems, which pointed back outside the galaxy, apparently (easy to figure if it came in from an angle not matching the galactic plane, which is pretty thin out our way).
Posted by Triton (Member # 1043) on :
Dukhat wrote:
quote:And I'm surprised that no one has mentioned just how stupid the Xindi are. They are in the process of building a super-weapon, but first they built a prototype. What do they then do with that prototype? They use it on the planet that they want to use the main weapon on! Wouldn't it have been more logical to target an insignificant planet for the test? Now Earth knows it's being targeted, so that it can make preparations to defend itself from the future sneak-attack. Silly Braga.
I've been wondering about this very thing ever since I saw "The Expanse". It seems like if you are going to make a pre-emptive strike that you would totally annihilate your target. Why just cut a swath of destruction from Florida to Venezeula, and then send a bigger weapon later to finish the job?
It makes me wonder if the Xindi are even involved and Archer is just being manipulated by Future Guy and the Suliban for a yet unexplained reason. Hmmm... what could the real reason be? Do I even care? Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pwesty: About Kirk knowing about the Machine, it sounds like to me that he knew about it BEFORE going on the 1017. Decker was describing what they had been attack by and Kirk KNEW what he was talking about, so somewhere before the Doomsday Machine had been encountered by someone, in other word how would Kirk know about it with out see it!
My computer crapped on me last night before I got to send this, and I see Mr. Neutron already covered it, nonetheless I thought I would give this beast a topic thorough scrubbing once and for all:
Kirk "KNEW" nothing about the planet killer. His entire suggestion was merely a theory and the entire scenario was a mystery to them until they discovered the Constellion, her logs and Decker before finally crossing paths with actual Planetkiller.
Nothing from the script seems to confirm your ideas:
KIRK: What happened to your ship, Matt? DECKER: My ship ... Attacked! That -- That thing. KIRK: What was it? DECKER: That -- KIRK: Answer me! What was it? What happened, Matt?
KIRK: What hit? What attacked you? DECKER: They say there's no devil, Jim, but there is. Right out of hell, I saw it.
DECKER: If you'd seen it, you'd know. The whole thing must be a weapon. KIRK: What does it look like? DECKER: Well, it's -- it's miles long, with a maw that could swallow a dozen starships. It destroys planets, chops them into rubble. KIRK: What is it, an alien ship? Or is it alive -- DECKER: Both or neither. I don't know.
SPOCK: She was attacked by what appears to be essentially ... a robot, an automated weapon of immense size and power. Its apparent function is to smash planets to rubble and then digest the debris for fuel. It is, therefore, self-sustaining as long as there are planetary bodies for it to feed on. KIRK: A robot weapon that purposely destroys entire solar systems. Why? SPOCK: Unknown, Captain. However, Mr. Sulu has computed the path of the machine, using the destroyed solar systems as a base course. Projecting back on our star charts, we find that it came from outside, from another galaxy.
and finally:
MCCOY: This whole thing is incredible. A robot? A machine like that, who would build it? KIRK: We don't know. An alien race, apparently from another galaxy. MCCOY: But why? KIRK: Bones...did you ever hear of a doomsday machine? MCCOY: No. I'm a doctor, not a mechanic. KIRK: It's a weapon built primarily as a bluff. It's never meant to be used. So strong, it could destroy both sides in a war. Something like the old H-Bomb was supposed to be. That's what I think this is -- a doomsday machine that somebody used in a war uncounted years ago. They don't exist anymore, but the machine is still destroying. DECKER: Oh, forget about your theories!
That's all folks! Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
"Why just cut a swath of destruction from Florida to Venezeula, and then send a bigger weapon later to finish the job?"
What about "Just cut a swath of destruction from Florida to Venezuela, and then send a bigger weapon EARLIER to finish the job"?
After all, the weapon supposedly had some sort of a time machine hooked up. For all we know, the Xindi succeeded on their second try, and destroyed Earth in 2073. That just wasn't in the timeline we're interested in. And the Xindi in turn aren't all that interested in the timeline we are interested in. They just do the Sliders thing and move to where things look the brightest for them.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Futurama Guy: Its apparent function is to smash planets to rubble and then digest the debris for fuel. It is, therefore, self-sustaining as long as there are planetary bodies for it to feed on.
...
Projecting back on our star charts, we find that it came from outside, from another galaxy.
That's what makes me think Spock had a little too much LDS (ha!). How can it come from outside the galaxy if it needs planetary bodies to feed on? What's it going to feed on in the MASSIVE void between galaxies?
Besides, the "projecting back using the destroyed systems as a route planner" thing seems awfully tetchy too. They're saying the thing didn't change course? And they're basing that on, what, 3 solar systems?
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Well, as far as the movement through intergalactic space is concerned, the thing could have some kind of "coast" mode where it aims itself at a galaxy and then goes into hibernation until it floats there on inertia.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Spock didn't specify how far outside the galaxy it originated. Maybe its builders just wanted a really isolated testing ground.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Triton: I seriously doubt that the Doomsday Machine is the Xindi super weapon. It has been revealed by Future Guy that the Xindi are interested in destroying the Earth so that people from Earth do not annihilate their race in the future. The Doomsday Machine on the other hand destroys all planets, stars, space bodies, and starships in its path to break them down for fuel. The pieces are swallowed by the large maw and then digested.
Sounds like the Lexx Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by TSN: Well, as far as the movement through intergalactic space is concerned, the thing could have some kind of "coast" mode where it aims itself at a galaxy and then goes into hibernation until it floats there on inertia.
It could do that inside the galaxy too.
I am more inclined to go with Simon's theory (which I think is the theory used by Peter David in "Vendetta"). It might have been built just outside our galaxy, but in another completely? And then for it to decide to float over here? Madness.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Perhaps it didn't "just decide" to float over here. Maybe it wiped out its entire home galaxy.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
That means it was almost certainly from Andromeda, or had past through Andromeda on the way from it's original galaxy. Which may or may not tie in to "By Any Other Name" (if that's the one with the Andromeda aliens, one of which Scotty gets drunk).
But still, no-one in the entire galaxy thought to fly something down it's extremely big mouth? That means Kirk is more intelligent than an entire galaxy. That is worrying.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Well, the nearest galaxy to our is only a few tens of thousands of light-years away. Even closer maybe, at the nearest points. So the thing wouldn't have had to go too far between galaxies, really.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I dunno. You can't "coast" at warp, so it would have had to have been sublight speeds. Or a wormhole, but they don't seem to connect to other galaxies. That's pretty long journey.
Posted by CaptainMike20X6 (Member # 709) on :
in a rare moment of sensibility, Peter David postulated that, since it was extremely unlikely that anything could coast from another galaxy while depending on planetary fuel, the Planetkiller must've originated outside our galaxy and drifted out, then been reawakened and flown back in.
of course, it being a giant crystal designed to fight the Borg that could fly faster than the infinite value warp 10 is also there, but not relevant to the issue
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
*first post from my new office.. whoo hoo!*
I always rather liked the idea that the Planet killer was an anti-Borg weapon.
Posted by Styrofoaman (Member # 706) on :
Maybe somthing like the Caretaker sucked it over here. Or maybe it was a plaything invented by Q.
Hmmm...
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: I am more inclined to go with Simon's theory (which I think is the theory used by Peter David in "Vendetta").
quote:Originally posted by CaptainMike20X6: in a rare moment of sensibility, Peter David postulated that, since it was extremely unlikely that anything could coast from another galaxy while depending on planetary fuel, the Planetkiller must've originated outside our galaxy and drifted out, then been reawakened and flown back in.
-7000 points for being slow.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
And to be fair, it didn't go faster than warp 10. It almost but not quite got there, getting infinitly closer while time stretched out to infinity.
It made for an interesting final couple of pages. And certainly made more crazy-made-up-science sense than "Hey, I've got a sudden compulsion to spit my tongue out!"
And the caretaker didn't take stuff from other galaxies. At least, that impression wasn't given, and every single crazy super wormhole type thing in Trek has always been confined to our galaxy, (the only exception I can think of is "Where No One Has Gone Before).
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Depending on how we define "galaxy," the device could have been deployed from a globular cluster.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
If the Trek galaxy has clearly defined, purple-glowing boundaries, "outside" could very well be a relatively nearby and precise location... A planet happening to lie on the wrong side of the purple curtain would definitely be "outside", even if just a few hundred ly distant.
OTOH, Spock's labeling of everything strange as "extragalactic in origin" is very much in character with what else we know of Vulcan science (mainly from ENT). The Vulcans assume they a) know a lot and b) know exactly what they don't know yet, so c) everything else is unreal and not to be studied. And even most of the things in the b) category would have to lie outside the area explored by Vulcans, since surely they can't have missed anything that was in there...
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
Brings whole new questions to the forefront as to why Vulcans would join a group of Humans out to "seek new life forms and new civilizations, to boldly go where no man/one has gone before."
Vulcans are the must conflicted species in Trek I think. No wonder they have such a thing as the Bendii Syndrome.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Well, that wasn't the Federation's mandate, it was Starfleet's mandate, and the Vulcans apparently weren't all that eager to join Starfleet.
Posted by Pwesty (Member # 1035) on :
Hi I was just wondering if anybody knows what ever happened to the model of the Doomsday Machine it self? Was it throen out with the trash when they were done with it. Just wondering and thanks ;-)
Posted by Capt.Blair245 (Member # 1113) on :
I read something about that and apparently they threw it out I think. I would, it's just paper meshe (sorry if it's spelled wrong)
Posted by djewell (Member # 1111) on :
Meche is how you spell it, I think. It really didn't look like much anyway. You could make one at home.
Posted by Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
M�ch�.
Posted by djewell (Member # 1111) on :
ahhh.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Papier.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Fatier.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
There's no reason the Doomsday Machine couldn't have come from from another galaxy. If it had a method of sublight propulsion capable of propelling it at even 1/10th light speed, if it left a galaxy like Andromeda it would "only" take 22 million years to reach us, unpowered. Peanuts on compared even to the age of our solar system. And, if it knew where it was going, it could shut itself off and set its snooze alarm to wake it upon reaching our shores.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Maybe. But, well, why? I can't see any logical reason why it should have originated from outside our galaxy, especially considering that Spock's reasoning is dodgy at best.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: Maybe. But, well, why? I can't see any logical reason why it should have originated from outside our galaxy, especially considering that Spock's reasoning is dodgy at best.
Possibly, but we don't know where those destroyed star systems were. If the farthest out ones were above the galactic plane and the thing was going in a relatively straight line, down into the plane, then Spock's conclusion would be "logical", especially if there were other yummy star systems just off its course that it ignored.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Yeah, but that would require either:
a/ The Enterprise to have sensors that were able to detect the status of solar systems all the way to the galactic edge, or
b/ Starfleet to have already noticed that there was a string of destroyed systems going from the galactic edge all the way to the relatively small area of the Alpha Quadrant that the Enterprise was in, and for them to have not done anything about it.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: Yeah, but that would require either:
a/ The Enterprise to have sensors that were able to detect the status of solar systems all the way to the galactic edge, or
b/ Starfleet to have already noticed that there was a string of destroyed systems going from the galactic edge all the way to the relatively small area of the Alpha Quadrant that the Enterprise was in, and for them to have not done anything about it.
Then again, the galactic plane out in our neck of space is only 3000 light years thick...it's possible the Enterprise and Constellation were UP or DOWN there near the edge of that.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
True. Alhough that would show more appreciation for 3 dimensional space than Trek has shown since...ever.
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