Just my $0.02... $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ So this episode supposedly opens with the scene from ST:FC When the Vulcan ship lands in Montana after detecting Cochrane's warp flight.
Now, I'm guessing that this particular event, in this particular universe, happened WITHOUT the time meddling from the Borg, and subsequently the Enterprise-E crew. The humans, apparently not entirely trusting of these new aliens (and rightly so, since they're still suffering from the aftereffects of WWIII), and not having Riker around to tell Cochrane who they are, viciously attack the Vulcans, killing them and absconding with their ship and technology.
So here are some ruminations I have:
1. This timeline and these events are actually how the timeline was SUPPOSED to happen. Ergo, the mirror universe is actually the "real" universe, and the universe of regular Star Trek is the "alternate" one thanks to the time meddling (Never mind the fact that the "alternate" timeline worked out better for everyone involved).
2. If in this early date, the humans have acquired Vulcan technology, then I'm not sure why the NX-01 would exist. It was a project created to test a new warp-five engine, since the Vulcans had denied the humans their tech. But in the "mirror" universe, the humans already have the Vulcan's tech. Presumably they can build ships that travel as fast as the Vulcans' do. So why need an NX Project? And subsequently, why need the NX-01?There's no reason why it should exist.
I'm wondering if these questions will actually be addressed in the episode. Whay do you all think?
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
Since the episode will feature NX-09, Avenger, I think the class was developed much sooner than our universe version and can go significantly faster than Warp 5.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Just because they captured one Vulcan ship, that doesn't automatically mean they can perfectly reverse engineer it and be completely on par with the Vulcans within a few decades.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
And take into consideration that the T'Plana Hath might not have been able to/needed to go any faster than warp 5.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
And of course, we all know that being able to go along at warp 5 really isn't that bad. Besides, I'm guessing that the first things the humans did was whip off to Vulcan and conquer the potentially dangerous species before they came back wondering what we did with their ship.
Is the mirror universe what happened without the Borg temporal hijinks? I don't think so. I think the evil universe is FUNDAMENTALLY more evil than our own... But I also think that it does beyond the simpler avenues of divergent universes. Otherwise, the extreme coincidences allowing whole crews worth of people to meet each other while together are just TOO wacky.
But I still think that the Defiant will be re-named Enterprise and survive to be commanded by Kirk a hundred years later.
Mark
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
Well, it is too wacky. Any mirror-universe will look vastly different the further away from the point of divergence.
It's a simple domino effect. You start one chain of events off and it's going to go in an entirely different direction.
But, that's what makes it a fun tv show. We wouldn't be nearly as entertained if the Mirror Universe stories didn't have our favorite characters.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dukhat: 1. This timeline and these events are actually how the timeline was SUPPOSED to happen. Ergo, the mirror universe is actually the "real" universe, and the universe of regular Star Trek is the "alternate" one thanks to the time meddling (Never mind the fact that the "alternate" timeline worked out better for everyone involved).
It depends on whether you see the events of FC as a causal loop or just a shift in the timeline. In the "normal" Trek timeline, did Picard & crew always help Cochrane, or did he and his cohorts originally do it by themselves? Did essentially the same events (with different details) occur before the Borg interfered and Our HeroesTM merely "corrected" the interference? Or is the original history that the E-E crew read about actually the same one they helped to create?
I suppose the corollary to this, as much as I hate to admit it, is whether or not ENT is an alternate timeline or not. Because ENT's timeline has been impacted by the temporal events of FC as seen in "Regeneration." But that same episode does seem to imply that a causal loop *is* in fact in place, as the Borg signal is intended to be the original reason why the Borg were heading for Earth in "Q Who?" (TNG). There are other numerous factors which point to ENT being the "true" history of TOS and everything else as well, so I suppose the causal loop-scenario is in fact correct.
However, there is definitely something more to the MU than just an (un)altered timeline. It's not just an alternate universe but a truly parallel one. There is some mysterious reason why everything in our universe has an equal and opposite counterpart in the MU.
Of course, one could argue that this has been inconsistent across series, or even within episodes. In the original "Mirror Mirror" (TOS), while Kirk and McCoy, et al, were literally polar opposites of themselves in the MU, Spock was still a logical, cool-headed Vulcan. There seems to be two different "uses" of the MU by writers. Firstly, to allow actors to play characters of completely opposite nature to the ones they normally play; and secondly, to show what a particular character might have turned out like if they had been exposed to different life circumstances.
Very strange, indeed...
-MMoM Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim:
quote:Originally posted by Dukhat: 1. This timeline and these events are actually how the timeline was SUPPOSED to happen. Ergo, the mirror universe is actually the "real" universe, and the universe of regular Star Trek is the "alternate" one thanks to the time meddling (Never mind the fact that the "alternate" timeline worked out better for everyone involved).
It depends on whether you see the events of FC as a causal loop or just a shift in the timeline. In the "normal" Trek timeline, did Picard & crew always help Cochrane, or did he and his cohorts originally do it by themselves? Did essentially the same events (with different details) occur before the Borg interfered and Our HeroesTM merely "corrected" the interference? Or is the original history that the E-E crew read about actually the same one they helped to create?
I suppose the corollary to this, as much as I hate to admit it, is whether or not ENT is an alternate timeline or not. Because ENT's timeline has been impacted by the temporal events of FC as seen in "Regeneration." But that same episode does seem to imply that a causal loop *is* in fact in place, as the Borg signal is intended to be the original reason why the Borg were heading for Earth in "Q Who?" (TNG). There are other numerous factors which point to ENT being the "true" history of TOS and everything else as well, so I suppose the causal loop-scenario is in fact correct.
However, there is definitely something more to the MU than just an (un)altered timeline. It's not just an alternate universe but a truly parallel one. There is some mysterious reason why everything in our universe has an equal and opposite counterpart in the MU.
Of course, one could argue that this has been inconsistent across series, or even within episodes. In the original "Mirror Mirror" (TOS), while Kirk and McCoy, et al, were literally polar opposites of themselves in the MU, Spock was still a logical, cool-headed Vulcan. There seems to be two different "uses" of the MU by writers. Firstly, to allow actors to play characters of completely opposite nature to the ones they normally play; and secondly, to show what a particular character might have turned out like if they had been exposed to different life circumstances.
Very strange, indeed...
-MMoM
i just thing a MU Kira sucking face with a anti-MU Kira does it for me, myself... Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Thank god those quotes were there, or I'd have no idea what you were referring to.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
quote: Well, it is too wacky. Any mirror-universe will look vastly different the further away from the point of divergence.
Indeed. So one would have to assume that the act of "accessing" a parallel universe downselects from the infinite number of parallels, and gives one where the people doing the "accessing" are prominently represented.
So any number of universes may have resulted from the Earthlings storming the T'Plana-Hath lander - but Archer (or in this case, just the audience observing Archer) will only have access to one where his counterpart plays a major role.
The only significant exception from this would be "The Emperor's New Cloak", where Quark accesses a mirror universe where Quark is dead...
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
If they're going by the theory that there are infinitely many universes, and new ones are created every single time something may have gone diffently, then how do we (or they) even know they're in the same alternative universe? Is the Mirror Universe from TOS the same as the one visited by Sisko? There must be yet another alternative universe where Kirk *never* crossed into the Mirror Universe. There must be an alternative universe where Spock died before starting the revolution.
The real question is whether the Mirror Universe is 'just another' alternative universe, or if it is of a fundamentally different nature. The TOS version could be interpreted as really being a 'mirrored' universe, that is somehow linked to the events in our universe, but with good and evil reversed. DS9 strongly implied, however, that the MU does have it's own history that is independent from our history. Of course, DS9 made it so fuzzy that even the characters themselved didn't understand it (Rom asked some good questions about the MU).
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Is that a revamped TOS-era corridor with Phlox and Trip in it? Looks good.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
My goodness, Blalock is fine.
As to Harry's question, 've always considered the Mirror Universe to be a fundamentally different universe, with its own set of quantum variations that don't include any from our universe. There was never a common timeline. Events in their universe bear a remarkable similarity to ours, though.
From what I've heard discribed about the beginning of this episode, there's no sign of the Ent E crew, meaning there's no reason to believe the timeline from our universe is connected here. Mirror Cochrane could have achieved warp flight on his own with Mirror Lily (who was probably his gimp or something, given the MU's propensity for bondage gear) and the Vulcan's showed up to steal it or enslave the planet. Fortunately for the humans, they were barbarians too and immediately slaughtered the newcomers.
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
Hmmm... a First Contact a la The High Crusade?
And why does so many people keep refering to the Trekverse as 'our' universe? I'd say it's more liklely that the Mirror Universe would be ours, the conventional Trekverse sure isn't...
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Because to do otherwise would result in 90% of the viewing public going "there was a big eugenics war 10 years ago? Did I sleep though it, or sumink?"
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
There was - the media just didn't cover it.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
The US wasn't involved, why would they? Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
I think it's quite conceivable to twist the Bosnian/Serbian war and the various genocides in Africa (Rwanda, Burundi) and come up with a nice Eugenics War.
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: Because to do otherwise would result in 90% of the viewing public going "there was a big eugenics war 10 years ago? Did I sleep though it, or sumink?"
I think you got it the other way around - I'm saying that the Trekverse is not our universe, and asking why other people insist in trying to invent explanations to cover for all the noticeable differences between them (as, precisely, the Eugenics Wars, among other things).
Edit: (Or are you tring to imply that people is so dumb that they would understand it the other way around?)
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
HerbShrump: Slobodan Milo�ević is a genetic superman, then?
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
I guess both the picture of T'Pol in miniskirt and the other with Archer and Maywetaher are aboard the Avenger?
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
A good point for divergence of the Trek universe with our own is the discontinuation/downgrading of the space program!
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
Some interesting news:
quote:Shatner pitched the storyline to Coto, Brannon Braga and Rick Berman, only to discover that the latter had a different alternate universe pitch developed by Sussman in which Shatner would play Chef, an ancestor of Kirk whom time-traveler Daniels wanted to use to replace the real Kirk at an important event when Kirk went missing. "We pitched this to Shatner and there was a long silence," said Coto.
What? Shatner, the creator of Star Trek 5 was struck dumb by a silly story idea? My entire worldview has been upturned.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Hmm...I see that tank tops are the equivalent of veils for women in the MU.
Anyways, that storyline with MU Kirk didn't make any sense. What the fuck is a tantulus field? And why would Daniels replace Kirk with one of his ancestors since Daniels runs the risk that this ancestor could get killed, thus preventing Kirk from being born in the first place?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
"What the fuck is a tantulus field?"
The plot device around which much of the action in that first episode revolved?
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Oh wait, now I know what it is. It was that device used to kill people. I thought the article was referring to the tantalus insane asylum.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
Shatner's story pitch, suprisingly, sounds much better than the one where he'd be Chef. Gets an aged "Kirk" back to ENT timeline. The only part I'm confused about is how Tiberius discovers the universe has changed.
I understand it that he's back in time. Therefore it doesn't need to be changed or different.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
To go back to the discussion point about the MU possibly having diverged at First Contact because of the TNG crew's presence, I find that extremely unlikely. For one thing, although their presence certainly altered events from Cochrane's perspective, I always got the impression that absolutely no one else in the encampment (aside from Lily) knew about the TNG crew being from the future. Therefore, regardless of the TNG crew's presence, "our" universe's Human crowd when the Vulcans landed would have been peaceful and welcoming.
Therefore, the idea of the crowd turning into a mob and attacking the Vulcans and killing them is either just one more divergence in an already divergent universe (going with the idea that the MU is somehow inherently evil or whatever) or else the trigger that sparked the mob happened completely independently of any factor involving the TNG crew's presence.
And all I can say is, thank goodness that Shatner didn't like the idea of playing the Chef. The idea of recruiting an ancestor of Kirk's to impersonate Kirk is one of the stupidest ideas I've ever heard of!
Posted by Vice-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
I like Blalock in the blue TOS outfit... looks as good when Terry Farrell wore the red TOS outfit for the DS9 episode.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Mmm. . . I'm not sure - Red wasn't really Farrell's colour. And shouldn't she have been in blue, anyway?
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Yeah how did that translate across!?! Terry Farrel liked red? 1. She was Chief Science Officer. 2. I guess she does have some sort of Command position on DS9, before Worf and not including Kira, Dax was Sisko's 2nd in command. 3. Being in Engineering red on the Enterprise got her access to more areas than Science Blue?
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
OTOH, several scientists in TOS wore red...
The access issue may have been important, yes. Blueshirts had access to critical Engineering areas in "Alternate Factor", but not elsewhen. Unless Sisko's gang wanted to infiltrate Sickbay, they probably best dress in yellow or red. (And they already had Bashir for Sickbay recce if they needed.)
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by The Captain from M.I.K.E. (Member # 709) on :
i believe that the costumer also stated that the red fabric they were using was superior in quality to the blue, therefore it was the only one of the three they thought they should use for the skirt
(this might've been their reasoning when they chose red for Historian Marla McGivers and Astrobiologist Ann Mulhall -- both of whom wore red despite their science careers).
besides, the redskirt uniform was an icon of TOS -- they probably thought it would be more nostalgic if they had a woman in a red skirt running around.
Besides, there are more than enough people who cross their department colors more than a few times throughout all the series -- its not impossible or improbable for a minor assignment change of personnel status change that could make an officer wear command instead of operations or science -- Spock, Uhura, Worf, etc -- and the few cases of captains, commodores and an admiral wearing non-command colors.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Besides, the DS9 crew had no position or rank at all in the TOS Starfleet, and no uniform could conceal the fact that they weren't actually crewmembers.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by machf: I think you got it the other way around - I'm saying that the Trekverse is not our universe, and asking why other people insist in trying to invent explanations to cover for all the noticeable differences between them (as, precisely, the Eugenics Wars, among other things).
Edit: (Or are you tring to imply that people is so dumb that they would understand it the other way around?)
Yes. Although I am also assuming that 90% of viewers of Star Trek do not sit there with the Chronology on their lap shouting "there were probes called Nomad launched in the 90s" in a high pitched voice.
Also, "is so dumb". Irony.
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
Is "people" a singular or plural noun in English? In Spanish, the equivalent "gente" is a "collective singular", not a plural...
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
We don't have to sit there with the Chronology book. We've got those details memorized.
And when we aren't sure, we go look it up.
People is plural. Person is singular.
Posted by Kobi (Member # 1360) on :
quote:Originally posted by HerbShrump: We don't have to sit there with the Chronology book. We've got those details memorized.
And when we aren't sure, we go look it up.
Exactly
I think they did use a red dress for Jadzia just to make her look like a yeoman. That way she would have acess to most areas, I think....
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I'd like to have full access to her areas. WIN!
Besides.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
Your manhood is secure once again.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I'd like my manhood to be secure. IN HER!
OTOH.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
"The other hand" is right.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
This is all terribly clever. Terribly.
Posted by Vice-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
So which actress in the TOS mini is he referring to? Blalock or Farrell?
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
I believe Farrell. Personally, I think they both look pretty good in those TOS miniskirts, but I think Trip would look bitchin' in one.
Posted by Vice-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
Ha... I'd rather see him try to pull off the male skirt uniform from the TNG Season 1 days...
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
Get 'em before Paramount sends out the brute squad again.
Posted by Vice-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
OMG... it's Chief Engineer Pike and Hunt for Red October Forrest of the ISS Avenger...
I can't believe that Trip looks like Pike after radiation burns. And if that is Forrest... he looks like Darrell Hammond dressed up as Sean Conary.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
That's Admiral Black, Starfleet Commandant or some such. The guy that Archer tries to blackmail into giving him command of the Defiant.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Look at the fancy graphics behind Travis. I think I'm going to like the slightly updated look of the Defiant.
Posted by Kobi (Member # 1360) on :
Those are interesting images, I can't believe we have to wait one more month...
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Hey! Why doesn't T'pol's space suit have a bare midriff?
Mark
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
Hmmm... the originals seem to have been posted on TrekBBS.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
The one thing that is bothering me so is how clean the mighty Defiant looks. I would figure that after drifting is space for 80 to 100 years that she would look more worn than she does. Worn paint, damage hull part here and there just that bunged up look and etc. and so forth.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Actually the ship was sent back in time 100 years into the Mirror Universe's past at which point it was only a short period time before the Mirror Universe Enterprise NX-01 came upon it. Plus the ship in the photo is inside a drydock, implying that any damage it had was repaired.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Vulcan on the right looks like T'Pol's ex; other one looks familiar, too. . .
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
Who got those HDTV screencaps? So far, the best video I've seen is the VCD-quality MPEG at Vidiot's...
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Usenet is your friend.
Anyway.. it looks like the Defiant has been given a very faint 'paneled' texture. And were those 'portholes' always above the lower sensor dome? Or are these actual, visible, phaser-ports?
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
No portholes above the sensor dome, as far as I can see. Instead, the ring above the lighted part has always had three equispaced semicylinders, one at the bow and two 120 degrees aft. We see the forwardmost here (or actually, we see the two shadows it casts). Those may have been intended to be the phaser emitters, but I'd rather not go with that...
Is there something seriously wrong with me when the first and only reaction I get from the T'Pol picture is "Wow, closeup on Vulcan guns!"? (Are those the same guns used at Coridan et al?)
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Vice-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
I thought for a second they were MACO rifles... then again Enterprise seems to get hardware upgrades whenever they are needed for a plot. Jolene does have nice hardware though... seems that a lot of the forefront Trek women come with them lately.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Those are MACO rifles.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I think Braga has a fetish for women holding guns, personally. Which doesn't explain this, I suppose. BRAGASUXUNICRONRULEZZ!!!!
Posted by Austin Powers (Member # 250) on :
I'm quite exited about Jolene Blalock coming to FedCon XIV in two weeks. Not so much because I would be interested in her "hardware" but because I'm curious to know what she will tell the fans when they ask about the cancellation of ENT... Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
How can you not be interested in her "hardware"? Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I think it's probably software.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
Hehehe.... True that. Posted by Vice-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
When you see her Austin, ask her why she has a velvet rope in her home movie theater... maybe she'll invite you over. She's also one hell of a garden designer.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pwesty: The one thing that is bothering me so is how clean the mighty Defiant looks. I would figure that after drifting is space for 80 to 100 years that she would look more worn than she does. Worn paint, damage hull part here and there just that bunged up look and etc. and so forth.
Ummm...in the vacuum of deep space far outside a solar system there'd be not much at all to wear and tear the ship. So even if it was drifitng for a century, chances are there'd be no visible changes...well, until the power ran out and the antimatter containment failed. Posted by Austin Powers (Member # 250) on :
quote:She's also one hell of a garden designer.
Now THAT is interesting. I'm quite interested in the subject myself. And as for my lack of interest in her "hardware", Aban got it exactly right... Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
Speaking of gardening, Alyssa Milano reportedly gardens in the nude.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Outstanding.
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
Probably more like "out, standing"
Posted by Vice-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
Ouch... she'd then burn easily without sunblock. Hopefully she has it all over her when she does gardening work.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Yes, currently there is an online competition for guys (and girls) to win a chance to apply said sunblock... Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
quote:Originally posted by HerbShrump: Well, it is too wacky. Any mirror-universe will look vastly different the further away from the point of divergence.
It's a simple domino effect. You start one chain of events off and it's going to go in an entirely different direction.
The beauty of infinite parallel universes is that, by the very idea of an infinite number of them, there must be one or more which look exactly like this one but for some minor change.
That overrides the domino notion quite handily.
This also means that if you don't like a particular mirror-universe story, you're perfectly at liberty to disregard it as being part of another parallel universe . . . though if it refers back to another episode you must assume the point of divergence is after that one.
For instance, there would indeed be a parallel universe in which Mirror-Spock's changes to the Terran Empire did not result in the Alliance destroying them and enslaving humanity.
(That's one thing I never liked about the DS9 MU visits, since the notion that peace was, on a practical level, "a bad thing" bothered me, and undercut the original TOS ep. But, with infinite universes, that's no problem at all.)
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: Yes, currently there is an online competition for guys (and girls) to win a chance to apply said sunblock...
Actually, a quick search on Google shows that the original mention was of "topless gardening", which is sort of more plausible... and that later she denied that story completely. Sorry to bring you those news... (although on the same interview there is also a mention of something far more disturbing than her gardening in the nude)
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
Tony Danza?
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
She's entering a Dawn copetition?
Posted by OnToMars (Member # 621) on :
Yesterday I read Engines of Destiny which was, by and large, shit. However, as a result of the myriad Star Trek elements it threw together that had no business being together, one was the Guardian of Forever and (in passing) the events of City on the Edge of Forever, in addition to lots of paralell universe bullshit. All of which got me thinking.
If indeed our universe and the mirror were at one point the same and there was a point of divergence - then perhaps the divergence wasn't at the events of First Contact because of the Borg, but perhaps it was more than a century earlier. What if Edith Keeler's unnatural survival was responsible for the emergence of the mirror timeline. Keeler survives, the United States stays out of the war, the Nazis win world domination and and thus, from that point on in human history, humanity was "evil."
Admitedly, it's not something I've given a tremendous amount of thought to, and there's nothing that says there has to be a point of divergence, but I thought it was an idea worth sharing.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Possible. Though it seems unlikely that if Nazi philosphy had prevaled and spread, people like Uhura and Sulu would've been serving on the Enterprise. Or indeed, Mayweather and Hoshi on the NX-01.
The whole point of divergenace theory is crap anyway, for the very reason that the same people still exist. Star Trek has made a point of subscribing to the "if you change the past, you change the present" view. Any point of divergeance that far back would've eliminated people from the timeline. However... a fundamentaly different universe might be able to get away with it.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Evil Jesus.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Not to mention evil Ghandi, evil Mother Theresa, and yes - evil Santa Claus.
Mark
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
As an aside, I once read a very creepy story about an evil Santa Claus. Some kid's abusive father told it, in the context of the story. I don't remember many of the details though, other than that the evil Santa Claus drove around on a sleigh pulled by goats, and he was murderously violent. In the end I think the father is killed by said creature.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
There are those who would argue that even the real Gandhi and Mother Teresa weren't all they're cracked up to be.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Yah... stupid little bald gnome.
The idea of a murderous, blood-thirsty Santa intrigues me. I'm seeing Billy Bob from "Bad Santa", but with demon-possessed murder.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
There is Backwards Santa from Red Dwarf's, er, "Backwards". The "fat gits who goes down people's chimney's and steals all the kid's favourite toys."
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
There are two episodes of Futurama dedicated to this. Beware Santa's evil bicycle gun!
Mark
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
He knows when you are sleeping, He knows when you're on the can, He'll hunt you down and blast your ass From here to Pakistan
You better not breathe, You better not move, You're better off dead I'm telling you dude Santa Claus is gunning you down
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
quote: As an aside, I once read a very creepy story about an evil Santa Claus. Some kid's abusive father told it, in the context of the story. I don't remember many of the details though, other than that the evil Santa Claus drove around on a sleigh pulled by goats, and he was murderously violent. In the end I think the father is killed by said creature.
I have the faint inkling of a feeling that this was a Donald Westlake short story. Lessee... Not yer regular Dortmunder book, no. Not one of them hard boiled versions, no. Ahh, yesss... Here: "Nackles", it's called. In a collection labeled "Tomorrow's Crimes", aka Westlake tackles sci-fi (Or rather, gets tackled by it. Not his cup of Earl Grey, apparently.).
Only two Santa stories in Futurama? Aww. I was so looking forward to seeing a trilogy completed. (They're showing reruns here right now, and I mean right now. Gotta go.)
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
There's a film about a guy who dresses up as Santa Claus and kills people called You Better Watch Out (aka Christmas Evil).
quote: "Silent Night, Deadly Night" is one of the most bizarre movies I've ever seen. For the most part, I really don't like this film. But for some odd reason, I don't hate it. This movie has sort of grown on me a bit. This movie caused a big controversy back in 1984 when it was released (many movie theaters refused to release this and the theaters that did release it were picketed) because of it's portrayl of a killer Santa Claus. I remember hearing on the news that TV stations refused to show commercials of this on TV because they feared that it would frighten young children. That was a wise move because this movie is definitely not for children! I've never seen this movie air on a TV or cable station, and it's been over 15 years since this film was made! But really, what were these filmmakers thinking of when they made this? "Silent Night, Deadly Night" is a movie where just about every murder scene made me cringe. However, some of the murder sequences in the film were strangely fascinating. I don't know why. Another asset is that the movie is never boring. It entertained me inspite of itself. But it's not up there with my slasher favorites "Halloween", "Friday the 13th", and "Scream". "Silent Night, Deadly Night" has lackluster performances, wooden direction, and an incredibly absurd script. And it features without question the meanest Mother Superior in movie history!
There's nothing more fascinating than killing people on X-mas.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
This is even BETTER!
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
Indeed, that one is great! (If you like that kind of flic, of course...)
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I have it on DVD.
Watch the part where the Klown comes out of the toilet: for a moment, you can see the guy's arm inside it as he overextends it out of the prop toilet.
The movie that made me re-think eating cotton candy at fairs.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
The Glowing Review It Gets Where All Words Start With A Capital Letter Really, Really Makes Me Believe This Is A Good Movie.
Posted by dbutler1986 (Member # 1689) on :
Just my two cents...I always considered the mirror universe to be a sort of...slave to our universe, with things being the opposite (in a certain way)... this comes from my heavy belief in duality: m/am, male/female, hot/cold, matter/energy....althought that last one is an illusion..well..then...the rest are too aren't they? Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
I had a thought.. THE MIRROR UNIVERSE has been demonstrated to be a different timeline that diverged at some point, so as a result, things are opposite that they are in the general Star Trek Universe. I'm thinking that the Mirror Universe that we see in TOS may not be the same alternate timeline as in DS9 or ENTERPRISE. Granted, they're very similar, but hey, they could be splits of splits... indeed, the whole TCW might be between timelines, instead of between points on the same timeline, trying to patch force certain branches to happen or close.
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