The Woden is the unmanned freighter from TOS: "The Ultimate Computer". Due to budget limitations of the 60's the studio model of Khan's Botany Bay was reused for this purpose. Is the Woden really a DY-100 class ship like the Botany Bay? The fact that the Botany Bay was still operationial 270 years after it was launched suggests that it was a pretty good design. There are, however, serious objections despite the screen evidence:
1) The DY-100 is a ship design from the late 20th century without warp or even impulse drive. Maybe they have been completely rebuilt by 2268, but it's a bit like a wooden sailing ship in a modern navy, there is a point where the whole construction is inevitably useless.
2) Most probably the ships of this class (built as early as 1996 in the Trek timeline) have not survived the Eugenic Wars and the Third World War.
[This message was edited by Bernd on June 08, 1999.]
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Well, the fact that the Botany Bay was still operationial 270 years after it was launched suggests that it was a pretty good design. If it was only an intra-stellar-system freighter (even though we didn't really see any planets or anything in the vicinity), and it didn't have any people on it, I can imagine that they might use a DY-100...
------------------ "Bite the wax tadpole." -translation of Coca-Cola's original Chinese name
Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
I don't like this idea, and taking into account that rebuilding a very old ship is connected with a whole lot of problems, it would be only worth while, if there were plenty of them left.
Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
*uppermost post edited*
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
To jump into noncanon speculation for a minute, following the invention of the warp drive, and given our species inclination toward wandering, it stands to reason that there would be something of a minor exodus off planet. Strapping on warp drives to existing ships, like the good old DY classes, would have saved time and energy. Hence, many of these vessels could have been drafted into service. The designs having proved adequate, colonies might have duplicated these old designs, explaining why some were still in use long after the originals had passed away.
------------------ "Gone savage for teenagers with automatic weapons and boundless love." -- Soul Coughing
Posted by Captain Stark (Member # 70) on :
Additional non-cannon information. FASA (ducks those throwing tomatoes) listed the Woden as a Zeus Class Robot Freighter (IIRC) based off of the design of the old DY-100 Class. I'll have to find the exact text and post it here.
BTW those keeping track this was my 47th Post on this message board.
------------------ -=/\=- Captain Stark http://beam.to/readyroom
"The man on the top walks a lonely path. The chain of command is often a noose." Dr. Leonard McCoy --Obsession, Stardate: 3619.2
[This message was edited by Captain Stark on June 09, 1999.]
Posted by Trinculo on :
This discussion might be different if the writers had stuck to the original idea of the Third World War as found in "Space Seed". After the SS Botany Bay is found, Capt. Kirk, Cmdr. Spock, and Lt. Cmdr. McCoy are having a discussion about the transport. Cmdr. Spock states that the ship is from the Third World War where nations were destroyed and records lost. Lt. Cmdr. McCoy recognizes the war and gives its second name-the Eugenics War. (World War I-The Great War). He makes a pointed comment to Cmdr. Spock about the drive by scientists to create the perfect humans and how Cmdr. Spock could recognize such scientists. Sometime between this episode and the TNG, this one war became two separate wars. As for the dates, I have a habit of moving the dates forward. If the episode "Space Seed" takes place in 2267 and the SS Botany Bay had been lost in space for two hundred years, then the SS Botany Bay left Earth in the mid-21st century.
My own, revised view of history- 2048 to 2052 Third World War (Eugenics War) 2052 SS Botany Bay leaves Earth 2063 Phoenix tests warp drive 2074 Majority of earth ships have warp drive (2018 minus 1996 is 22; 2074-2052=22 years)
The SS Woden could be an upgraded ship from the same company that made the DY-100, DY-500, and the DY-750 transports. Considering that other classes might lie between DY-100 and DY-500, the SS Woden could be a DY-300 perhaps.
[This message was edited by Trinculo on June 09, 1999.]
Posted by Starbuck (Member # 153) on :
Seems pretty plausible. Mike Okuda's "official" DY-300 design for the SS Mariposa ("Up the Long Ladder", I think) is based pretty heavily on Matt Jefferies' original design, and some other books (one of which, if memory serves, is the Star Trek Spaceflight Chronology) shows some other DY-type ships. Starfleet have a history of design "families", as do other navies - witness the Constitution (and its refit), Amabssador and Galaxy classes, or perhaps the Miranda, Soyuz and Nebula. These ships are all built to the same sort of shapes (the Excelsior and Sovereign are another "family", as are the Daedalus and Olympic), and shipbuilders have done the same thing for centuries. So why couldn't the Woden be a later, warp-capable type of DY ship, or maybe a refitted DY-100?
Answer: It's possible, but the Woden and the Botany Bay only *looked* the same cause they had to use the same model
Anyone who's seen the original series sketchbook knows how similar the Botany Bay turned out to Jefferies' original concepts, compared to most of his other ship desighs
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Posted by USS Vanguard (Member # 130) on :
Isn't the Mariposa a DY-500 class?
------------------ "This should provide adequate sustenance for the Doctor Who marathon" -Fat Sarcastic Comic Book Guy
Posted by Trinculo on :
The SS Mariposa is a DY-500 class transport with the registry of NAR-7678. Her primary drive is atomic fusion. Information comes from the episode "Up the Long Ladder".
DY-100 "Space Seed" DY-300 "Up the Long Ladder" DY-400 "Up the Long Ladder" (?) DY-500 "Space Seed" DY-750 Official Timeline of Star Trek
Based on the above, the first DY-100 class transport was launched in the 2030's or 2040's. Subsequent class, whatever that was, may have had warp capacity. Interestingly, the DY-500 didn't have warp nacelles like the SS Valiant.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Okay, you mentioned Spock's calling the Eugenics War World War III in "Space Seed". I always assumed that this was due to his own limited knowledge of Terran history, or maybe just a misstatement. That's why McCoy had to point out that he meant the Eugenics War.
------------------ "I ran into Charlie Fogg. He blacked my eye, and he kicked my dog. My dog turned to me, and he said, 'Let's head back to Tennessee, Jed.'" -The Grateful Dead, "Tennessee Jed"
Posted by Trinculo on :
Cmdr. Spock is reading from the library banks. Before the discussion began, he is in the process of closing his investigation of the SS Botany Bay. He can be seen fiddling with the controls. Cmdr. Spock is giving the information he obtained to Capt. Kirk for analysis and discussion. The question is, is the library computer wrong or is there a misunderstanding by the current writers and producers of this conversation? I opt for the latter.
Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
Someone has an image of a DY-300 or DY-500 class? I have never seen one.
Posted by Trinculo on :
In the episode "Up the Long Ladder", there is a picture of a DY-500 class transport. The picture can be also found in, I believe, the continuing missions or the art of star trek.
Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :
------------------ http://frankg.dgne.com/ "Let's get those missiles ready to destroy the universe!" - TMBG
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Perhpas the computer's library mentioned something about the Eugenics War being referred to by some as the third World War. Spock didn't know enough about Terran history to realize that there was a later war which was more often called World War III.
------------------ "I ran into Charlie Fogg. He blacked my eye, and he kicked my dog. My dog turned to me, and he said, 'Let's head back to Tennessee, Jed.'" -The Grateful Dead, "Tennessee Jed"
Posted by Trinculo on :
TSN: The library computer aboard the USS Enterprise is not the internet.
Personnally, I feel that the history of Star Trek is as fucked as many other aspects of the four series-the science, the registries, etc. After watching the original many times, I feel that the Federation came into being in the mid-2250's after the Axanar Peace Treaty. In one episode, "Whom Gods Destroy", Kirk spoke of a vision which brought different races together by the people of Axanar. This could be the Federation. Further, Kirk said in "The Mark of Gideon" that the galaxy was at peace. This suggests that before the Treaty of Axanar the galaxy was in a state of war. All this evidence was ignored by the later writers and producers. (And no I don't believe the Federation existed before 2240 if I followed the original's history. There are too many references to Earth this, Earth that.)
However, the history has been revised and many elements of the original history have been minimized or eliminated. I am not sure who did this or why. So, now we have threads of history that don't fit. The issue of World War III and the Eugenics War is one such thread. In the original, these two wars were the same. There can be no overlooking this fact and the fact can't be explained away.
[This message was edited by Trinculo on June 10, 1999.]
Posted by Cargile (Member # 45) on :
Just something I caught: all rockets are impulse engines if they eject mass for propulsion. The Space Shuttle uses three impulse engines. The term impulse is used to mean that the drive produces thrust as opposed to the contiuum distortion drive.
------------------ "Minsk."
Cmdr Worf
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
The reason why the history of the Federation is skewed is because Roddenberry didn't have all the details worked out until well into TOS, and didn't get a chance to polish his ideas until TNG. There are no "horrible" discontinuties. So Kirk talks about Earth a lot. So does Janeway, and the rest of the crew of Voyager. Earth is the capitol. Do references to UESPA, or Space Command, mean that Starfleet doesn't exist? No.
------------------ "Gone savage for teenagers with automatic weapons and boundless love." -- Soul Coughing
Posted by Trinculo on :
The errors in Star Trek would require the presence of several large tomes. Let's return to the topic of the Woden and her class. If I remember correctly, the DY-750 bore some resemblance to the SS Woden.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Actually, the Eugenics War/WW3 thing can be explained away. I just did. I can easily imagine the ship's databanks reading "In the late twentieth century, the entirety of Terra was plunged into war by a race of genetically engineered 'superhumans'. In places, this war was so destructive that people of the time often referred to it as 'World War III'." Now, if Spock didn't realize at the time that WW3 wasn't the official name, and that there was another WW3 later on, it's perfectly feasible that he would refer to it as the "third World War", through a simple misunderstanding of what he read.
------------------ "I ran into Charlie Fogg. He blacked my eye, and he kicked my dog. My dog turned to me, and he said, 'Let's head back to Tennessee, Jed.'" -The Grateful Dead, "Tennessee Jed"
What I dislike most (apart from hopelessly outdated designs being used in the 2260's) is that there are two concurring designs for early starships: the DY familiy and the Phoenix/Valiant family. It seems that the DY family has been built for centuries, as if warp drive hadn't been invented in the meantime. No need to mention I like the Phoenix and Valiant much more.
BTW: Is there any more information on the Charybdis, except that it was a NASA ship?
TSN: I follow your explanation of the WWIII problem.
Posted by Trinculo on :
The Charybdis information from the episode "The Royale" is rather sparse. It is essentially a repeat of the information spoken vocally in the episode. There is no class nor picture information on the Charbydis. After the Charbydis, there is another flight-the Jacob. (Star Trek: The Continuing Missions)
TSN, Bernd: There are so many issues involved with the Third World War and the Eugenics War that I decided instead to concentrate on the SS Woden and her class issue.
The issues involved- Technological Chronological Scientific
This matter has been debated here and elsewhere. The conclusion-either you accept the Okudas interpretion of history or you don't. There is no middle ground for pride and ego are involved. And I don't. I feel that you (TSN, Bernd) do accept the history. And so there is no point in continuing this discussion.
[This message was edited by Trinculo on June 10, 1999.]
