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Posted by The First One (Member # 35) on :

Bozeman, Constellation, Excelsior, Gettysburg - ships still in use?

The USS Bozeman, Soyuz-class NCC 1941, diappeared in 2278 and reappeared through a tempral distortion in 2368. The name of the ship has been mentioned twice more, making a course correction after the collapse of the Amargosa star (ST:G) and at the Battle of Sector 001 (ST:FC).

But is it the same ship? More than likely. The Soyuz-class was retired ten years after the Bozeman disappeared, but that doesn't mean they'd instantly retire this ship too. They had a ship that was nearly new compared to the Miranda space frames still in use.

A USS Constellation is mentioned in 2371 going to Deep Space Nine. Is this the Constellation class ship, NX-1974 itself? If so, it's 80 to 100 years old. Likewise the Constellation-class USS Gettysburg, NCC-3890 - another Gettysurg has been mentioned in DS9 recently. But as far as we know, all Constellations have been retired by now. Of course, given the need for ships, they may have been brought back into service. Simple answer is, we'll likely never know.

A USS Excelsior is mentioned in 2370. . . if it's the Excelsior, it's 90 years old. Too old for the class? Maybe. Maybe not. Personally, I doubt it is the one. Whether, as with the Constitution, they may have named a second one, or if it's of an entirely different class. . . again, we'll never know, It was a one-line reference.

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

There's also the Magellan, BTW...and the Republic, if you want to talk about that.

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Posted by The First One (Member # 35) on :

Actually, I don't know enough about those two, so I hoped someone else might do them and we could combine it later. . .

Anyway. A postscript to the above: in the Enc II entry for the USS Excelsior, it says at the end (in the italics bit): We assume that the Excelsior mentioned in "Interface" was the same ship first seen in Star Trek III because there is no evidence to suggest otherwise.

Posted by bryce (Member # 42) on :

The Republic was mentioned in "Valiant" as still in use.

About the Excelsior: Your opinion would be based on whether ypou believe a name is retired once it becomes a class. (with the exception being the Defiant)

I believe it is retired so the Excelsior mentioned would have been NX-2000.

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Posted by bryce (Member # 42) on :

I also don't know about the Bozeman. It would need a massive refit to get up to code. Why waste the resources?

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Posted by Mikey T (Member # 144) on :

About the USS Bozeman, remember the ship disappeared while she was in service; Most likely the ship was in excellent condition. Now, after reappearing from the time loop, Starfleet engineers most likely felt that why decomission a ship that is still space worthy and that since most of the original systems are still actually working. They would need just to add on the systems the ship has and there you go, the ship is upgraded to current Starfleet specifications.

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Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

I would add that when we the Constellation mentioned, she was acting as a transport, which is a believable task for such an old ship. If she had been mentioned as being on the front lines, that might add some weight towards a new ship.

As for the Republic, my personal preference is for her to be the old Constitution, no refit. Now that would be a site, eh?

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Posted by The First One (Member # 35) on :

Two things: Michale, that's exactly what I'm saying - that the Bozeman is relatively new compared to all the Mirandas they have, so why arbitrarily scrap it? And second, I don't know if they retire class names once they've been used. . .

But let me elaborate on this: the only way for the Constitution-class USS Constitution to have the registry it does is for it to be the second to bear the name. I think a compromise is in order - they only re-use class names if the new ship is of the same class. So I reckon the Excelsior mentioned in "Interface" is most probably a new ship, but more than likely another Excelsior-class one.

Posted by USS Vanguard (Member # 130) on :

Wasn't the Constellation transporting the young Jem Hadar, awful important cargo to give to an aging transport.

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[This message was edited by USS Vanguard on June 13, 1999.]

Posted by Jamaharon on :

The Bozeman was mentioned three times since "Cause and Effect". Once in "All Good Things...", "Generations", and "First Contact".

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Posted by The First One (Member # 35) on :

The USS Republic, NCC-1371, was one of the Constitution-class ships seen in TOS. In DS9's "Valiant" a Republic is mentioned in the context of an old ship now used for Starfleet academy training.

It would be nice if this training ship was the Constitution-class one, especially as a symbol - cadets training on the one of the first of the Federation's great starship lines.But the practicalities do present some problems - for instance, is it the original version or the 2270's refit? Next, how much could they learn on such antiquated technology, apart from elementary skills which they could fall back on if the complicated modern systems failed. Or, the ship could have been upgraded with all the latest systems - but then why not just use a newer ship? They can't be that hard up, not if they can spare a Defiant for a training mission.

Simple answer is, once again, we'll never know!

Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :

[In response to The First One: "They can't be that hard up, not if they can spare a Defiant for a training mission."]

Nothing but the best for Red Squad I suppose. In the DS9 two parter "Homefront" and "Paradise Lost", Admiral Leyton used Red Squad (RS) to knock out the power generator on Earth. And once Sisko discovered how RS was involved Leyton sent them away so they couldn't incrimidate him I guess. This to me appears to be the reason why RS was on the Valiant, but why used something as advanced as a Defiant-class ship? For starters they would of left before the war began, so the need for using a Defiant-class ship wasn't a big deal. Two, being an admiral, Leyton used his authority to use the USS Valiant, also it could of been the only availible ship at the time and Leyton was in a hurry to get RS out of the way.

And the last reason, they really wanted to use another Defiant-class ship on DS9.

Hobbes
9906.14

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[This message was edited by Hobbes on June 14, 1999.]

Posted by The First One (Member # 35) on :

STOP PRESS!!!

I emailed Michael Okuda about the Republic and this was his response:

quote:
There was no specific reference in that episode to indicate whether or not it was the ship mentioned in the original series, but I asked Ron Moore (the episode's writer), and he indicated that he thought it probably was.

So there you go. How does everyone feel about it now?

Regardless of when the Valiant left on its mission, it's still quite unusual for them to use a Defiant-class. How many have we ever seen? There's (in order) the Defiant, an unnamed ship in "A Call To Arms," the two in "MiaB," the Valiant and the Sao Paulo. That's a possible four to six ships, given that the unnamed ones could have been ones we know about already.

Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

Constellation, Gettysburg, Excelsior: There's no hard fact, but it's only a matter of probability whether these ship are still in use.
Pro:
- The Constellation/Excelsior is the class ship, and for historical reasons it might be rather kept operational than another ship of this class.
- The ship might have been built for a lifetime of 80 years or more, so what's the problem?
- Why not keep ships in service as long as they don't have excessive need for repairs? The ships might be in better shape than most of their sister ships.
Contra:
- There are many newer ships from the 24th century already retired (Qualor II).
- Irrespective of its prospective lifetime, it is improbable that the Constellation/Excelsior class survives two or three complete design generations. Starfleet has lots of newer ship classes. The more classes, the more ships and the less older ships will be needed.
- Starfleet has certain standards, and upgrading ships to meet them is a complicated process, much like building new ones. If there are only a few ships of a class left (which seems to be the case with the Constellation class) it is not worth while to start an upgrade program.

Magellan: Basically the same arguments, but the role of the ships better suits a Galaxy class.

Republic: It would be a nice idea (and good naval tradition) to maintain a very old ship (maybe even the first version) as a cadet ship. There is only one objection: Picard says there's one Constitution class in the Fleet Museum (unknown whether he refers to the original or reconstructed version). If there were a ship still in service, he would have said something like: "Constitution class. There's one serving as a cadet ship." There is no excuse Picard does not know this ship, he must know it, just like everyone in Germany knows the only sailing ship of the German Navy.

Bozeman: The Fact Files say explicitly this ship is still in use, in two different files. This is a sign the authors intended the ship from ST:G and ST:FC to be the old Bozeman and did not accidentally use this name. Considering that the ship was relatively new and for some reason might be interesting to keep in service, I can accept this. There is only one strong objection: Wouldn't the Temporal Prime Directive require to return the ship and the crew to the past and, moreover, wouldn't they insist to do so anyway?

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Posted by Black Knight (Member # 134) on :

I don't think the Temporal prime directive would apply because the ship did not go into the past, only the future, and maybe stafleet didn't know how.

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Posted by Shipbuilder (Member # 69) on :

The Constellation subject has been brought up numerous times before and I'll just quickly rehash an earlier point (of mine, no plaigerism)

The Constellation was used to transport the young Jem'Hadar and undoubtedly, they wanted to get him there fast....so enter the 4-nacelled Constellation whose design, which we have determined fairly recently is suitable for fast courier type missions. Maybe whoever wanted the Jem'Hadar wanted him badly and quickly enough that they would risk the old, but fast, Connie.

Keep in mind, when I'm talking fast I'm not saying that she could outrun most current ships, I'm saying that she could run on 2 nacelles for a period of time, power them down and immediately power up the second pair to continue on its way....basically neglecting the maximum time at max warp limitation.

Posted by Trinculo on :

There is something I would like to bring up. According to the Deep Space Nine Technical Manual, the Ambassador and Rigel class ships were not in the battle to retake the station. Very soon after the battle, there is the mention of the USS Agaki and the USS Exeter, both of Ninth Fleet. Could these two ships be of different classes than the USS Agaki NCC-62158 and the USS Exeter NCC-26531?

Until I see further evidence, I do believe that Starfleet has Constellation Class ships in service in 2374 and 2375. And I do believe that the USS Excelsior NCC-2000 and the USS Bozeman NCC-1941 are in service in the 2370's.

Posted by USS Vanguard (Member # 130) on :

Maybe the Exeter and Akagi(Agaki) arrived after the battle as reinforcements for the Ninth fleet.

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Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

The DS9 TM wasn't particularly accurate with regards to the ships used...it left out the Steamrunner, too.

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Posted by bear (Member # 124) on :

I still believe that the U.S.S Republic being mentioned in Valiant is of Excelsior design. Picard said that the only constitution still around was in the fleet museum. I also believe that the U.S.S Excelsior is on its second or third ship. They wanted to retire the Enterprise after 40 �..20 years or what ever it was , so I find it extremely hard to believe that the original Excelsior is still in service. Now if they had said that the original Excelsior was the training ship back at Earth, I could have gone along with that .

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