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Federation Starship Datalink
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Where is this "Confrontation Cruiser" from? I realize that there is some evidence for another type of Jem'Hadar ship, but I can't recall it looking much like this...
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"Breath...keep breathing. I can't do this alone"
--
Radiohead
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Well, I don't know much about alien ship sizes, but I know that the ratio of the battleship to the bug should be much higher, à la WYLB.
And, no, I don't think that qualifies as a spoiler, so don't even say it... :-�
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Brain: "Are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
Pinky: "I think so, Brain, but, if you get a long little doggie, wouldn't you just call it a 'dachshund'?"
Posted by Curry Monster (Member # 12) on :
Hmm. Here's my version, based on canon and text info.
http://solareclipse.net/Channel/dom2.jpg
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"I have only one purpose, the destruction of Hitler.....If Hitler invaded hell I would make at least a favourbale reference to the devil in the House of Commons".
-Winston Churchill
[This message has been edited by Daryus Aden (edited June 27, 1999).]
Posted by Elim Garak (Member # 14) on :
Daryus's gives a much more accurate sense of things, in my opinion.
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Doctor: "Run along. I'll reattach any severed limbs. Just don't misplace them." (Voyager: "The Killing Game")
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
To me, the bug still looks too big. Wasn't there than one shot that suggested that the bug and the Defiant have almost the same width? And, for that matter, it still looks too big in comparison to the battleship, although it could be my memory playing tricks on me...
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"You! Are you smarter than this one?"
-Ambassador Byleth to LaForge regarding Worf, TNG's "Liasons"
Posted by Curry Monster (Member # 12) on :
TSN, the statement made by Jake about the size of the supercruiser (twice the sie of a Galaxy) was not backed up by the VFX of the episde. My chart shows how it would look if that were correct.
Posted by Galen (Member # 72) on :
The bow of the Confrontation cruiser looks like it was cut and pasted from the Apollo/T'Pau
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"Victory is Life!"
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Daryus: I'm referring to a shot in WYLB that shows a battleship and a bug in rather close proximity.
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"You! Are you smarter than this one?"
-Ambassador Byleth to LaForge regarding Worf, TNG's "Liasons"
Posted by Curry Monster (Member # 12) on :
Fair enough *L*. The reliability of canon however.....
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"Diplomacy is the art of Internationalising an issue to your advantage"
Posted by Jim Phelps (Member # 102) on :
Please don't misunderstand me, maybe I'm the only one but I really don't like statements which imply that what we finally see onscreen should be treated as inferior to the producers' initial thoughts on the subject. Especially since none of the staff ever said that their initial ideas/ship sizes should be considered correct because they have been 'mistreated' or 'ignored' onscreen.
What they usually say is that they come up with some numbers as a starting point, which are then changed in the course of the production process thanks to the WONDERFUL experience of having different people add their own expert opinion/modifications to their designs. They would LOVE to change their initial sizes so that everything makes sense, but don't have the time for that.
After all, it ultimately is a collaborative process to create the best possible ONSCREEN experience for the viewer.
Boris
[This message has been edited by Boris (edited July 01, 1999).]
Posted by Federation Shipmaster (Member # 15) on :
That's quite an interesting Breen there.
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Posted by Curry Monster (Member # 12) on :
Boris, I totally agree
. All I'm saying is that whilst it looks brilliant, it's not reliable. I'm sure that they do go to a great deal of effort to ensure quality control, but anyone can make mistakes.------------------
"Diplomacy is the art of Internationalising an issue to your advantage"
Posted by Jim Phelps (Member # 102) on :
I would not exactly say that they are not reliable; the Defiant has always just barely fit the dock of DS9, and at the same time always been really small in relation to a Galor class. It is fairly obvious that the VFX people would not want to contradict the previously established Ship-A to Ship-B relationships for the sake of visual consistency. The trick lies in changing the intended sizes appropriately to match the final thoughts of the production people involved.
Boris
[This message has been edited by Boris (edited July 11, 1999).]
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
In that first pic the station is too small, basically we can see both the top left Jemmie battlecrusier and the Galor class ship happilly dock at DS9's lower docking pylons in Season 5 and 6.
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"Ooh, FASA." - The Shadow, aka Frank G - June 1999
[This message has been edited by AndrewR (edited July 11, 1999).]
[This message has been edited by AndrewR (edited July 11, 1999).]
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Boris: But that's the problem. They do change the sizes depending on what they want it to look like. That's why the Defiant is so huge next to DS9, but was so tiny next to the E-E...
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"They gave the ferret a teleprompter!"
-Louie the Lizard, Budweiser commercial
Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :
And, again, it's DS9 that's changing sizes, and FC was done by ILM, not the usual company. It's not intentional.
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RB: "'Get a life' is a phrase heard a lot, though I have never known exactly what kind was implied. Seems a lot of shallowness and greed is the rule."
CS: "I guess that it means the kind of life led by the characters of 'Dawson's Creek' or 'The Simpsons'."
Posted by Jim Phelps (Member # 102) on :
Ok, I managed to get two e-mails to David Stipes in the meantime:
"Hi Boris,
The VFX supervisors ususally set the sizes for the ships. Some, like the DS9 station and Voyager, were dictated by the art dept. As far as I know, we pretty much worked with the sizes as listed.
The exception was Neg'Var which usually seemed MUCH larger than scale. I do not know any specifics about that.
David "
So basically, they work with the figures in the charts, except that a few ships can be differently sized at times. Then I gave him that Defiant/Lakota comparison to look at and pointed out that the Negh'Var is the least of our problems. Here's the reply:
"Ah, shucks, Boris,
You cought us! And we thought we had put one over on all you Trek guys! Just kidding!
Yep! I agree! That Defiant is too small! That sometimes happened because the ships were photographed at different times. And sometimes we just goof. Oops!
BTW I did not do that show. My shot are designed very differently.
David "
So the Defiant has been 100m long either because of a) a number of compositing goofs or b) people having different ideas about the extent to which the charts should be adhered to. I guess we can use these figures as a fairly good approximation of what goes onscreen, but should nevertheless keep an eye out for aberrations. Unfortunately, the Defiant is a big and painfully obvious canon aberration, and should really be adjusted. I mean, it's not like the ship aberrates from the rest of the show - it only deviates from the producers' *thoughts* on the show.
It is true that onscreen evidence is inconsitent, but it is better to try and match as much of it as possible rather than ignore everything. If we can get the Defiant to look good next to 90% of starships by scaling it down to 100m, we get better results than by leaving it at 170m - a figure which fits neither the DS9 comparisons perfectly, nor any of the starship ones.
Boris
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"Wrong again. Although we want to be scientifically accurate, we've found that selection of [Photon Energy Plasma Scientifically Inaccurate as a major Star Trek format error] usually indicates a preoccupation with science and gadgetry over people and story."
---a Writers' Test from the Original Series Writer's Guide
[This message has been edited by Boris (edited July 12, 1999).]
Posted by Curry Monster (Member # 12) on :
Andrew, that Galor is a long way away.
Boris, from what I've been told by someone who worked on DS9 -I don't know his name, only an alias- it comes down to this: They tried to get it right, but things don't always work out. That's basically what David said.
I'd agree with TSN.
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"Diplomacy is the art of Internationalising an issue to your advantage"
Posted by Jim Phelps (Member # 102) on :
Daryus: just because there is a problem in the real world, does it necessarily mean that there is a problem in the Star Trek universe as well?
People may have differing opinions, but I'd just like to be as scientific as possible about this matter. This means 1) postulating a hypothesis: "The Defiant is actually bigger" 2) testing it "what evidence do we have in the show that the Defiant is actually bigger?" 3) concluding that it's small because there is no evidence in the show. Conclusion: we arrive at a size which fits most of the episodes.
Now if further episodes should change matters, that's fine with me, but why contradict what we see onscreen based on what is supposed to be seen onscreen? The Defiant works just fine at 100 meters.
Boris
[This message has been edited by Boris (edited July 12, 1999).]
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
no, no Daryus, of course that Galor is too far away - I was in that instence or picture referring to the jemmie cruiser there, and here is a pic from season 6 - of a galor docked at the same place.
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"Ooh, FASA." - The Shadow, aka Frank G - June 1999
[This message has been edited by AndrewR (edited July 13, 1999).]
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