Flare Sci-Fi Forums: Ship lengths - this is the big one, folks...

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Okay, as you may know, UP III is going to include a starship comparison section. If, for some reason, you don't know about it, read about it here. Go ahead. I'll wait.

*waits*

Okay, now that you all know what I'm talking about, you can see the necessity of having a list of the dimensions of the ships. For now, I should expect that lengths will suffice. Once we have those, it should be a simple matter to determine the widths and heights.

Here's what I have on my list of Starfleet/Terran ships:


Akira           464.43m
Ambassador      525.78m
Centaur         381.87m
Cheyenne        370m�
Constellation   300m�
Constitution    288.65m
Constitution-II 304.80m
Daedalus        105m�
Danube           23.1m
Defiant         170.68m
DY-100          105m�
Excelsior       466.65m
Excelsior-II    470m�
Freedom         239m�
Galaxy          642.51m
Intrepid        344.61m
Miranda         248m�
NCC-75227        24.4m
Nebula          442.23m
Niagara         244m�
Nova            140m�
Oberth          120.40m
Olympic         312-338m�
Prometheus      414.52m
Sabre           185m�
Soyuz           248m�
Sovereign       685.19m
Yeager          330m�

I've left out the following:
Norway, because I'm trying to determine if the DS9TM length matches what was seen in FC.
Steamrunner, because I wasn't even sure where I got the number I had.
New Orleans, because the number I had was from before we discovered that the nacelles had been lengthened.
Sydney, because the number I had was really old, and it's accuracy was doubtful.

I listed the Defiant w/ it's official length because that's what's on my personal list. On the site, the 120m figure will be available, too. I know there's also debate over the Akira, but I didn't feel like looking up what the other figure was. That will be included, too.

Now, here's what I need from the rest of you. If there are any rather-widely-accepted lengths on any of these, I'll need those, so I can include them. I also need the lengths of alien ships, since I've never personally kept track of those.

Please, bear in mind that this thread is not to debate why one length is correct and another is not. For the sake of neutrality, I'm going to use the debated lengths for ships that have them. If you have a length you think should be included, give me the reasoning behind it. If it seems viable enough, I'll use it.

And, of course, thank you in advance. :-)

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"You! Are you smarter than this one?"
-Ambassador Byleth to LaForge regarding Worf, TNG's "Liasons"

[This message has been edited by TSN (edited June 29, 1999).]

Posted by Jim Phelps (Member # 102) on :

Just one note: Excelsior is 1,531' or 466.6m.

Boris

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"Wrong again. Although we want to be scientifically accurate, we've found that selection of [Photon Energy Plasma Scientifically Inaccurate as a major Star Trek format error] usually indicates a preoccupation with science and gadgetry over people and story."

---a Writers' Test from the Original Series Writer's Guide

Posted by Curry Monster (Member # 12) on :

No problems there TSN.

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Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

what is NCC-75227 is that data's scout ship?

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"Ooh, FASA." - The Shadow, aka Frank G - June 1999

Posted by The First One (Member # 35) on :

Yes. Why not call it 'Scout'-class or -type rather like we calll the 'Centaur'-class or -type?

Posted by Elim Garak (Member # 14) on :

Lee: No reason but it looks more technical. *L*

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Actually, on my real list, I have "ST:I scout", or some such. I just put the registry here because, um... I felt like it. The reason I don't call it Scout-type is because, so far as we know, there's no ship called Scout. Since we don't have a ship name, I didn't use one.

And is that Excelsior figure right? I was under the impression (not that I could say from where) that it was 1535' long. Maybe from the ST3 length chart?

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"You! Are you smarter than this one?"
-Ambassador Byleth to LaForge regarding Worf, TNG's "Liasons"

Posted by Jim Phelps (Member # 102) on :

Yes, you can take a look at it here.

Boris

---a Writers' Test from the Original Series Writer's Guide

Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

No objections, except for ******censored******

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Okay, I've fixed the Excelsior length. Thanks, Boris.

Now, I think some of you are missing the point of this endeavor. I'm not looking for objections. I'm looking for supplement. I don't want to know what I need to change (well, if there is something, I guess I do); I want to know what else should be on the list. I still need the alien ship lengths, and, when posted, I'd also like to know where they came from, so I can decide whether they should be included or not...

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"You! Are you smarter than this one?"
-Ambassador Byleth to LaForge regarding Worf, TNG's "Liasons"

Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :

The Peregrine is somewhere between 25 and 40 m long. I still anxiously await screencaps from 'The Maquis' to help peg it down through comparison externally with runabouts and cockpit width.

IIRC, we never did get an official length for the Nova, but we'll need some figure.

Bernd did a good job at pegging the New Orleans at 360m... I thought that'd be good enough.

The Delta Flyer is also still up in the air... would this even be included in UP3?

Oh, and the Defiant is a model a little more than a metre long. Sometimes it's been known to revert to a Lightwave mesh a couple thousand pixels long. Just how many pixels is still under debate.

Chakotay's raider is probably 85m long. VFX in Caretaker were rather lousy, the raider ranging from 40-100m in some shots, but this diagram pegs her at about 21m high which gives us the 85m length.

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"Potatoe"
-Dan Quayle

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Yeah, I noticed that I left out the Nova a little while ago. It's in there now. And, personally, I don't see why there's any arguement over it. There are two charts seen in the episode that give practically the same size. Reference this thread for the original arguement. Now, the problem w/ people's measuring of the 3D diagram was that they didn't account for the angle of the Equinox. Look at how the back ends of the nacelles don't line up. Halfway between those two positions is where the "actual" back end of the ship should be. The same w/ the indentation in the front. Although it's hard to see, the spot halfway between the two "points" in the front is where the actual front is. That's the right way to measure the diagram.

Oh, and about Chakotay's ship... If the deck height isn't 3.5m, that figure isn't right, and there's no reason to think that it is 3.5m.

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"You! Are you smarter than this one?"
-Ambassador Byleth to LaForge regarding Worf, TNG's "Liasons"

[This message has been edited by TSN (edited June 29, 1999).]

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

I've just done some remeasuring of the New Orleans. I used Bernd's diagram, which I assume is accurate (safe assumption, Bernd? :-) ), and I used a saucer width of 266m. This is assuming that they used the same size models as they did for the Cheyenne, meaning that the two have the same size saucer. However, I get 370m (the same I get for the Cheyenne, in fact). Actually, I think it was more like 372, or something, but I tend to round off, since I know the numbers aren't going to be perfectly accurate, to begin with...

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"You! Are you smarter than this one?"
-Ambassador Byleth to LaForge regarding Worf, TNG's "Liasons"

Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

140m for the Equinox?? Sounds right to me. I found 145 +/- 5m.

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Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

My size estimations of both the New Orleans and the Cheyenne are based on the bridge. While the size of the Cheyenne bridge can be exactly determined, for a 1/1400 bridge and a 1/2500 saucer has been used, the bridge module of the NO is custom-built, so the uncertainty range may be a few percent.

Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :

Well.... the C2-Type Raider's cockpit windows work nicely based on a 3.5m tall deck... Wasn't the cockpit a redressed runabout set? The windows would certainly fit then...

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"Potatoe"
-Dan Quayle

[This message has been edited by The_Tom (edited June 29, 1999).]

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Tell me, are the alien ship lengths on this chart accurate?

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"You! Are you smarter than this one?"
-Ambassador Byleth to LaForge regarding Worf, TNG's "Liasons"

Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :

Remember this thread? Enough Jem'Hadar battlecruiser talk to make your head spin. Ought to come in handy, I s'pose.

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-The Barenaked Ladies

Posted by Jim Phelps (Member # 102) on :

I'll comment on the main chart only and not the "canon", since it would be confusing otherwise. I won't comment on the ships for which I don't have a better number (in my opinion).

1) Galor was designed (and makes sense in the show) at 481m. Larry Nemecek quoted a memo from Rick he received on the Fact Files. I'll refer you to "Caretaker" nevertheless - it seems a lot bigger if the raider is 85m long. This is why I think it is pointless to make the Dominion Battlecruiser smaller because of the Galor.

2) The Defiant is about 100-120m long according to the show.

3) Maquis raider should be bigger, perhaps 85m.

4) Intrepid is 344.4m.

5) JH Bug is about 100-110m long in the finished episodes, and also according to a canon statement (buried 90m in "The Ship")

6) Romulan Warbird was designed at 4,400 feet or 1341.6m according to A. Probert (you can search the web for his e-mail and website).

Boris

[This message has been edited by Boris (edited June 30, 1999).]

Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :

If we could get a shot of what angle the Jemmie ship was buried in "The Ship" we might be able to peg a better size though Pythagoras.

Agreed that the Maquis Raider is more than 80m long, and I suppose that Galor size is better at 481.

The Defiant was only 100-120 m in a portion of the shots in season three and four. Ever since s5 its been clearly 170m except when you start extrapolating different lengths for the other ships it was beside then creating new lengths for it.

Technical Technical on the Intrepid. Fine.

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"I... love you more... than I did the week before... I discovered Alcohol""
-The Barenaked Ladies

Posted by Jim Phelps (Member # 102) on :

I would suggest that the revised charts were actually drawn late in Season 5, once it became necessary to keep track of all the scales for the battle shots. Watch the scene where the Defiant chases the runabout in that Dominion-twoparter - it's clearly less than 100m long.

And yes, it probably has been 170m long since Season 6, however, the Defiant didn't really change size in the show. If we go about it scientifically, then we would obvioulsy be looking for the best fit line rather than the most recent data (why would it be more valid than the past?), but that may only be me.

Boris

---a Writers' Test from the Original Series Writer's Guide

[This message has been edited by Boris (edited June 30, 1999).]

Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :

The reason the later stuff takes precedence is because before s5 there was no nailed-down length. Frank has proven at great length that one of the more common sizes the Defiant appeared at was in the vicinity of 120m, but it was quite often under 100m ("Defiant") and indeed I am of the opinion that she was only about 100m in "Paradise Lost", despite what Frank may say. Of course whenever docked to the station she was in the 200s. We have two and a half years of erratic size and two and a half years of a fixed size. Why do people have such a problem with accepting the latter?

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"I... love you more... than I did the week before... I discovered Alcohol""
-The Barenaked Ladies

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

The Intrepid is 344.61m, according to Sternbach:

"I can tell you the length is 1130.62' or 344.61 m, taking into account the accepted value of 0.3(u*d)/l for Hancock's thermal distortion for fractional dimensions at rest within a G-class stellar environment (normalized H-R sequence). I also know what's sitting in the space behind the bridge and nobody else does <g>."

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"You! Are you smarter than this one?"
-Ambassador Byleth to LaForge regarding Worf, TNG's "Liasons"

[This message has been edited by TSN (edited July 01, 1999).]

Posted by Jim Phelps (Member # 102) on :

The_Tom: Perhaps we need to be clear on the facts a bit. These "official" lengths are not some kind of end-all/perfectly established numbers that are not supposed to be questioned. Especially not in the case of the Defiant; the latest from Mike Okuda is that Drexler's cutaway (110m) was also worked on by Herman Zimmerman (production designer), Randy McIlvain (art director), then checked against Gary Hutzel (the other VFX supervisor) and Mike Okuda. It represents the thinking at that time of what the interior of the Defiant should look like. He doesn't know where the 560' number came from, but it was obviously later in the game.

Also, Mike was very explicit about the notion that *as much as they want to*, it is very difficult for them to arrive at the correct number. They can suggest an initial size for production purposes, but simply cannot keep track of what deck spacing finally ends up on the model and onscreen. Sometimes they manage, for instance Rick corrected the original size of DS9 because of later revisions in the Effects department, but most of the time, somebody needs a number for the Encyclopedia and uses this estimate, and then the fans come in and think this is it, perfect.

We can do better than that, since we *are* aware of what goes on everywhere. The perception of 560' being the end-all number might have come from Rick Sternbach who doesn't work on DS9 and admits to have only known the 560' length and Doug Drexler's charts when writing up that section. He is not opposed to a reconsideration, as mentioned on his startrek.expertforum.ricksternbach forum, and let's hope we see something over the hiatus.

Boris

---a Writers' Test from the Original Series Writer's Guide

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

I really don't have much to add, except that the Defiant has never been shown to be 170m, and Akira has never been any of the >400m lengths, and keep in mind that warships would probably tend to have smaller deck heights.

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