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Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :

Can anyone help me understand how the Intrepid-class can have such relatively short warp nacelles. No other starship has nacelles anywhere near so short. It is especially strange, considering the Intrepids are so damn fast. I also reckon it makes the ship appear unbalanced. It's unfortunate when every other aspect of the ship is so well designed. *sigh*

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"Forgive me if I don't share your euphoria!" (Weyoun to Dukat, DS9 'Tears of the Prophets')

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

Supposedly it was to imply that warp coil efficiency had increase - i.e. smaller number of warp coils needed for the same engine performance - i.e. compared to the original Enterprise or even the Enterprise-D but then we get the Enterprise-E... *american accent* 'go figure'

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Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :

Even the Prometheus (another new design) has much longer nacelles. Quite simply, no other starship has such short nacelles as the Intrepid-class (unless you want to count the crap Intrepid kitbash Yeager-class).

Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

Newer ships have smaller nacelles?? And what about the Sovereign class??

I found a rule in nacelle sizes: The length of the nacelles of a Federation Starship is between 2/5 and 2/3 of the total length. The Intrepid class is the only exception to this rule. The Yeager class may not be an exception, if you believe the picture in the DS9 Tech Manual.

BTW: An addition was made when the Defiant was introduced: Defiant type nacelles are 1/3 of the total ship length. All canon ships with this type of nacelles comply to this rule.

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Altair's Sci-Fi Homepage

[This message has been edited by Altair (edited September 04, 1999).]

Posted by Elim Garak (Member # 14) on :

It gives Voyager character.

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Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue")

Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :

What was your point, Altair? BTW, the Yeager pic in DS9TM has nacelles that are very similar to the Intrepid ones. You must be thinking of the Intrepid prototype/concept kitbash (with the Miranda nacelles).

I'll assume you were being sarcastic, Elim

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"Forgive me if I don't share your euphoria!" (Weyoun to Dukat, DS9 'Tears of the Prophets')

[This message has been edited by Dax (edited September 04, 1999).]

Posted by Elim Garak (Member # 14) on :

Actually, I wasn't, as I like Voyager's overall configuration quite a bit.

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Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue")

Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :

I like everything excluding the crappy nacelles.

Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :

Can some one explain to me Voyager's warp core? It's a swirling mix instead of the chamber where the matter and anti-matter are pumped into the central dilithium chamber. Maybe this is also why the ship has small nacelles.

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"Let's make sure that history never forgets the name...Enterprise."
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Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

Ever noticed that the 3D diagram of 'Voyager' that is rotating in the background monitors has larger nacelles??

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Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

And about that warpcore:
I don't know how that works, but I do know it is also used in the movies 1-3 Enterprise.
In fact: They even used the same set.
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Altair's Sci-Fi Homepage

[This message has been edited by Altair (edited September 04, 1999).]

Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :

Yes, you guys have a very good point. I've pondered the same thing. Why would Voyager have the same type of core as the Original Refit Enterprise? It looks good but is inconsistent with the other 24th Century ships. Hmmm...

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"Forgive me if I don't share your euphoria!" (Weyoun to Dukat, DS9 'Tears of the Prophets')

[This message has been edited by Dax (edited September 05, 1999).]

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

Guys, clearly you didn't understand my post...

supposedly the smaller nacelles on Voyager was supposed to convey the idea that the technology had gotten better - i.e. the same speeds/ability say as the E-D but with fewer warp coils in the nacelles...

The E-nil and E-A and E-B had long nacelles, then we get the E-C and E-D with shorter nacelles and then we get the Intrepid class with even smaller nacelles...

but the E-E stuffs up this idea... so does the Prommie.

But the ship from 'hope and fear' has small nacelles - maybe another clue in the episode that this wasn't a genuine Starfleet ship.

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"All is full of love, all around you" - Bj�rk

Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :

It's funny, but the Sovereign and Prometheus are the only classes faster than the Intrepid. What does that mean? Don't ask me

I thought the Dauntless looked pretty cool. The nacelles weren't so short as Voy's, but they were still small.

The Intrepid warp core issue is actually a more interesting question then the nacelle length

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"Forgive me if I don't share your euphoria!" (Weyoun to Dukat, DS9 'Tears of the Prophets')

Posted by Elim Garak (Member # 14) on :

The Prometheus goes Warp 9.9, although they said it was the fastest in the fleet.

And we have really no basis of saying Sovereigns go faster than Intrepids...

Although you do have a good point about nacelle sizes there...

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Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue")

[This message has been edited by Elim Garak (edited September 05, 1999).]

Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

The Prometheus was going Warp 9.9 at that time, that doesn't mean it was going as fast as possible.

BTW: Voyager was shaking when it was traveling around that speed in 'Treshold'.

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Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

According to Sternbach, who after all designed the thing, Voyager's warp core does away with the idea of a central reaction chamber. Instead, the whole core is a reaction chamber, with a thin layer of dilithium seperating it into two or more parts.

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Posted by Starship Voyager on :

As devoted as I am to the Intrepid-Class, here's some food for thought:

At the time the Intrepid was introduced, she was considered to be the fastest, the most maneuverable, and certainly the most advanced Federation starship we have seen. Design-wise, she was the first vessel to break away from the traditional "saucer/neck/body" configuration of past starships. Then as the next "Next Generation" movie was in the works, a newer, more powerful starship was needed. The Sovereign was born, sporting elongated nacelles and considered to be top of the line. And then came along the Prometheus, again faster, again more capable then the ones we've already been introduced.

My point is that any new ship (of great importance) will always top that of the one we've seen before. Just because the Sovereign and the Prometheus have longer nacelles and can go faster than the Intrepid doesn't necessarily mean that longer is better. All it does is to prove that prominent new starships (regardless of nacelle length) are a little faster and a little more advanced.

And that's my two cents for the day :-)

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[This message has been edited by Starship Voyager (edited September 05, 1999).]

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Perhaps they discovered that building long nacelles (i.e. Sovereign) is easier than and just as effective as whatever they had to do to cram the Intrepid warp engines into those tiny nacelles.

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Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

Maybe they used the same efficient Intrepid nacelle coils, but just increased the number, maybe at the time of the intrepid - there was something stopping them using more than the number given in the intrepid with out loosing efficiency.

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"All is full of love, all around you" - Bj�rk

Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :

It's possible that Voy's special/different warp core works best with those small nacelles. The variable geometry wings/pylons might also have something to do with it.

Hmmm, the Intrepid-class has three warp engine related aspects that no other starship has -

no M/ARC warp core,
variable geometry nacelle pylons, and
rather relatively short nacelles.

Hopefully the VOY Tech Manual will clear this issue up.

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"Forgive me if I don't share your euphoria!" (Weyoun to Dukat, DS9 'Tears of the Prophets')
Dax's Ships of STAR TREK

[This message has been edited by Dax (edited September 06, 1999).]

Posted by Black Knight (Member # 134) on :

I think that the nacelles are so short to increase maneuverability. It might be difficult to maneuver through the bandland's plasma storms with huge sovereign type nacelles sticking out the back. Imagine trying to carry a 10 foot long 2x4 around in your house.

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Posted by bonecrusher on :

In response to the same set as used in the ST TMP, are you sure they used the same set? I know that E-D used the enterprise A halls and then Voyager reused these halls, and the ten forward as the mess hall etc. The warpcore is a reuse. Am I correct with all of this?

Posted by Mikey T (Member # 144) on :

Hmm... I always thought that the warp core from the Enterprise refit was modified to become the warp core for the Enterprise-A and then to become the core for the Enterprise-D. I guess the studio made another warp core after ST: TMP.

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :

Technically, when artist John Eaves whom designed the Enterprise-E was working on it, he said he wanted to give it the longer nacelles. Here's what he says in the Star Trek TNG: Sketch Book...

"So I gave the saucer an oval shape, and designed it so that it was longer than it was wide. I really liked the older, longer nacelles, and returned to that, in order to give the ship balance."

Okay, so this doesn't count inside the Star Trek universe, I just wanted to point that out. As to the reason in the show..I have no idea.

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Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :

The Ent-A core (seen in ST:VI) was a reuse of the Ent-D core. I think the D core was built from scratch. The Refit core (ST:TMP) might have been kept in storage until VOY.

It is strange that the Refit Ent and the Ent-A had completely different cores, even though they are the same class.

Oh, I'm glad John Eaves knows what looks good. He's definately one of my favourite Trek illustrators (Probert was excellent, too).

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"Forgive me if I don't share your euphoria!" (Weyoun to Dukat, DS9 'Tears of the Prophets')
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Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :

Different cores doesn't seem like a problem. If they can swap out bridges with ease, swapping in an old core for a newer and better core shouldn't be that tough

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Posted by Gaseous Anomaly (Member # 114) on :

In the words of the Evil One: Style, baby, style!

They just give them differing nacelle lengths to drive you obsessives cracked. I can picture Sternbach and Okuda, sitting back with some empty boxes of fags at their feet, wondering what they can do to make your lives more miserable.

"I know, let's introduce the USS Now Orleans...but it's a RUNABOUT!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!"

Seriously, it's all a matter of what Berman and co. like, at the time. From "a fried chicken in a pan" to "just give it something that moves", it's their momentary taste that defines what our starships look like.

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What anomalises gaseously.

Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :

The359: I honestly can't see how a Ent-D type core could work in the Ent-A (assuming the engineering hull internal structure is the same as the Refit Ent). A lot of internals would have to be rearranged. This is very technical to properly explain but I know what I'm on about.

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"Forgive me if I don't share your euphoria!" (Weyoun to Dukat, DS9 'Tears of the Prophets')
Dax's Ships of STAR TREK

Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :

Well, swapping the E-A core with the E-D core would be pretty dumb, but the point is, cores can easily be replaced. I mean, if ships dump their cores, and they blow up, you should be able to just slip one in, and why not make it a slightly more modern one? So it might require some modification to the connection hardpoints and wires and everything. It's just like a computer program. Easily swap it out for an upgrade

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"I am Sci-Fi"
-The 359

Posted by Montgomery (Member # 23) on :

Very weird is the Voyager warp core.
The ultimate in lava lamps.

The idea of a thin layer of dilithium spread out within it as sternbach suggested is intriguing. Maybe this is to accomodate a new recrystallisation technique.

Another idea, the dilithium reaction is used to create an "energy plasma" which is used as a power source in the EPS (as they call it in the Tech Manual etc., and is also fed to the warp coils in the nacelles. On the E-D, these were the two beams horizontally connected to the core, carrying plasma away from it.
Perhaps the design of the Intrepid means a simpler method of recrystallisation and/or plasma "removal from core" is possible, as used in the E-A. Maybe a smaller power requirement than a bigger ship, which needs a heavy duty, Sovereign-style core.

As to the nacelle size, I agree that the variable geometry must be the key. Minute adjustments of the "wings" in warp flight of a few degrees could be enough to improve efficiency to the extent that you get away with little coils.

On a big ship like a Sovereign, perhaps a Variable-Geomerty system is impractical because the mass of the ship is too big. (Just too heavy to make the energy cost of antigrav fields that move the nacelle struts break even with efficiency gains).

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Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

LOL@lava lamp!!

They (the behind the scenes designers) almost made the Sov with variable 'wings', but they went for fixed 'wings' because the design looked like a turkey, I believe it was?

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Posted by The First One (Member # 35) on :

I have this mental image of that dancing animated chicken carcass in Peter Gabriel's "Sledgehammer" video. . .

Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :

The359: You completely missed my point. The Ent-A was shown with a similar type of core as the Ent-D - not the Ent-D core itself (although it was the exact same set). Similar type meaning that it has matter from the top and antimatter from the bottom being fed into the central M/ARC. This is similar to the Ent-E and Defiant core.

Now, the Refit Ent core worked quite diffently. The Refit core stored and fed both the matter and antimatter from the bottom. The Refit also had a separate dilithium reaction chamber (in that room where Spock died). The intermix core ran all the way up to the impulse engine (where the deflection crystal is). You couldn't just replace this whole system with a central M/ARC core.

The Voyager core seems to be similar to the Refit one. They both have an intermix flow with no central reaction chamber.

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"Forgive me if I don't share your euphoria!" (Weyoun to Dukat, DS9 'Tears of the Prophets')
Dax's Ships of STAR TREK

Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :

From what I heard in Star Trek II, the room where Spock died was part of the impulse engine. Also, where was it shown that both matter and antimatter came from the downside? I believe we did see part of the matter part of the warp core above the reaction chamber.

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"I am Sci-Fi"
-The 359

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Part of the impulse drive? That wouldn't explain why: A.) Dilithium was involved, or B.) Why fiddling around with it fixed the warp drive.

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"Just because you're floating doesn't mean you haven't drowned."
--
They Might Be Giants

Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :

Thanks, Sol

The359: First, there is no reaction chamber other than the one in Spocks room of death (which was in main engineering, BTW). Secondly, the centre of the core leads up to and powers the impulse engine. The impulse engine has backup fusion cores.

Voyager does seem to store its matter at the top of the core, though (going by the MSD).

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"Forgive me if I don't share your euphoria!" (Weyoun to Dukat, DS9 'Tears of the Prophets')
Dax's Ships of STAR TREK

Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :

Ah, a picture tells a thousand words. Check this out, The359 - Refit Constitution deck chart