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<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="1" width="95%" align="center"> <tr bgcolor="#234c6f"><td> <table border="0" width="100%" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="1"> <tr bgcolor="#234c6f"> <td colspan="2" align="left"> <font size="3" color="#FFFFFF" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>T O P I C ��� R E V I E W</b> </font></td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Jim Phelps</b> <br /><small>Member # 102</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,9,2,20,37,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">October 02, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">08:37 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Ok, today I ran across a comic shop in the middle of nowhere with crates full of old Star Trek memorabilia. I found a weird black-hard-cover $100 Star Fleet Technical Manual, two $75 Concordances (originals), a bunch of novels, Best of Trek 3, magazines...and most interesting of all, the Star Trek III story treatment, "Return to Genesis", dated September 1982.<P>Yes, the Bird of Prey was originally a Romulan ship full of Romulans. The Excelsior is described as having hyper-warp drive, which allows speeds in excess of Warp 10. When leaving spacedock, the Enterprise goes to Warp 8 while the Excelsior captain orders Warp 15 (and doesn't succeed, of course...).<P>I haven't gotten much else out of it, maybe I'll buy it the next time. BTW, according to the Star Trek Phase II series bible in the "Lost Series" book, Warp 8 is the maximum safe speed of the Enterprise that never made it onscreen. This is consistent with various fan books which give speeds as Warp 8 and 12 (emergency).<P>Boris<P>------------------<BR>"Wrong again. Although we want to be scientifically accurate, we've found that selection of [Photon Energy Plasma Scientifically Inaccurate as a major Star Trek format error] usually indicates a preoccupation with science and gadgetry over people and story."<P>---a Writers' Test from the Original Series Writer's Guide<P><p>[This message has been edited by Boris (edited October 02, 1999).] <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Elim Garak</b> <br /><small>Member # 14</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,9,2,21,5,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">October 02, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">09:05 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Wasn't Kruge supposed to originally steal a Romulan Bird of Prey?<P>------------------<BR>Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue") <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Sol System</b> <br /><small>Member # 30</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,9,2,22,26,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">October 02, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">10:26 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> It's also the source of the speculation that the Bird of Prey, while not of Romulan construction, might have been a product of their short-lived alliance.<P>At least, I think that's speculated. By more people then me, I mean. <IMG SRC="http://flare.solareclipse.net/smile.gif"><P>------------------<BR>I do indeed and shall continue<BR>Dispatch the shiftless man to points beyond<BR>--<BR>Soul Coughing <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Jim Phelps</b> <br /><small>Member # 102</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,9,3,13,13,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">October 03, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">01:13 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Well, that's what the Encyclopedia says, but unless I've missed something in the treatment, it's not the case (or maybe a later draft of the script incorporated the stealing to explain the BoP name). An associate of mine has speculated that the entire Klingon honor thing may be a side effect of this switch - in TOS, it was the Romulans who cared about honor, while to Klingons, "honor is a despicable trait".<P>Boris<P>------------------<BR>"Wrong again. Although we want to be scientifically accurate, we've found that selection of [Photon Energy Plasma Scientifically Inaccurate as a major Star Trek format error] usually indicates a preoccupation with science and gadgetry over people and story."<P>---a Writers' Test from the Original Series Writer's Guide<P><p>[This message has been edited by Boris (edited October 03, 1999).] <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Sol System</b> <br /><small>Member # 30</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,9,3,20,50,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">October 03, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">08:50 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> The Klingons were certainly more pragmatic about it during TOS. Then again, Klingons as a group are always somewhat pragmatic about honor. It's their cultural ideal, but much like humans, they can make a lot of exceptions to it.<P>At any rate, the Klingons were much more of a cipher in TOS, standing in for the Russians, among others. It wasn't until TNG that they began to be developed as their own species.<P>------------------<BR>I do indeed and shall continue<BR>Dispatch the shiftless man to points beyond<BR>--<BR>Soul Coughing <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Jim Phelps</b> <br /><small>Member # 102</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,9,6,11,50,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">October 06, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">11:50 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Being a Slav myself, I can tell you that the new Klingons and Russians have a *lot* in common, right down to their music. But now we're completely off topic <IMG SRC="http://flare.solareclipse.net/smile.gif"><P><P>------------------<BR>"Wrong again. Although we want to be scientifically accurate, we've found that selection of [Photon Energy Plasma Scientifically Inaccurate as a major Star Trek format error] usually indicates a preoccupation with science and gadgetry over people and story."<p>---a Writers' Test from the Original Series Writer's Guide<p> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Bernd</b> <br /><small>Member # 6</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,9,6,15,20,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">October 06, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">03:20 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> *LOL* on this Klingon-Russian comparison<P>The BoP name is Romulan, of course. I guess that the Romulan reference was dropped at a stage when the BoP model was not yet completed. This explains why it nevertheless looks rather Klingon (thin wings, raised stern and front torpedo launcher like the K't'inga).<P>------------------<BR>Get your free signature at <A HREF="http://www.uni-siegen.de/~ihe/bs/startrek/" TARGET=_blank>Ex Astris Scientia</A> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Kosh</b> <br /><small>Member # 167</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,9,6,15,50,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">October 06, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">03:50 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Sounds like you have a box full of collecter stuff there.<P>------------------<BR><B>Outside of a dog, a book is a mans best friend. Inside of a dog, it's to dark to read. Groucho Marx</B><P> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Elim Garak</b> <br /><small>Member # 14</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,9,6,15,52,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">October 06, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">03:52 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Well, the Klingons were always pretty much used to represent the Russians until TNG (after which all instances are probably accidental).<P>------------------<BR>Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue") <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>PsyLiam</b> <br /><small>Member # 73</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,9,7,21,42,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">October 07, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">09:42 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Of course, it also look srather similar to the Romulan BOP, with the wings, the painted feather pattern. It's like a K'Tinga crossed with the original Romulan BOP.<P>------------------<BR>You know, when Comedy Central asked us to do a Thanksgiving episode, the first thought that went through my mind was, "Boy, I'd like to have sex with Jennifer Aniston."<P>-<I>Trey Parker, co-creator of </I>South Park<BR> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>TSN</b> <br /><small>Member # 31</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,9,7,23,41,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">October 07, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">11:41 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Y'know, "Bird of Prey" probably wasn't a Romulan name to begin with. It was a Federation name applied to Romulan ships which, appropriately enough, had birds of prey painted on them. One can assume that, when Klingons began producing ships shaped like birds, w/ birds painted on them, the Feds would go ahead and use the same term. "Cruiser" isn't a Klingon or Romulan term, yet it's used for some of their ships. Why not the same for BoP?<P>------------------<BR>"It'd be a pity if every pencil on Earth suddenly collapsed in on itself and blew everything up."<BR>-Krenim, TNO chat, September 30, 1999 <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Bernd</b> <br /><small>Member # 6</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,9,8,6,51,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">October 08, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">06:51 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> From the part of the Federation, "BoP" could be a generic term for all starships looking like a bird-of-prey. The official Romulan and Klingon names, respectively, could have a completely different meaning. However, it is possible that "BoP" is the literal translation for both original names. Anyone speak Klingon? I always wanted to know what "B'rel" and "K'Vort" means.<P>TSN, maybe you wish to edit your posting before Frank gets aware off it <IMG SRC="http://flare.solareclipse.net/wink.gif"><P>------------------<BR>Get your free signature at <A HREF="http://www.uni-siegen.de/~ihe/bs/startrek/" TARGET=_blank>Ex Astris Scientia</A> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Dax</b> <br /><small>Member # 191</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,9,8,9,16,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">October 08, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">09:16 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I'm surprised the Romulans don't have their own form of "BoP" in use now. All we ever see are their giant Warbirds. Surely the Roms would build fighter/raider type vessels as well.<P>------------------<BR>"Forgive me if I don't share your euphoria!" (Weyoun to Dukat, Tears of the Prophets)<BR><A HREF="http://www.space.net.au/~mdax/index.htm" TARGET=_blank>Dax's Ships of STAR TREK</A><BR> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>The First One</b> <br /><small>Member # 35</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,9,8,9,27,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">October 08, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">09:27 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I have one or two ideas about that. Remember that the Romulans are very secretive - they became isolationist for years, people only saw the Warbird for the first time in 2364. They still maintain a Neutral Zone and don't let anyone through it. They ignore said neutral zone whenever they want, but only in force - i.e., with Warbirds. The only times we've seen other ships were shuttles or scout ships, and those were unusual situations. The only time they let a Federation starship - the <i>Bellereophon</i> - into thewir space, you can be sure they kept her away from anything important. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Elim Garak</b> <br /><small>Member # 14</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,9,8,15,26,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">October 08, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">03:26 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Well, they have a few runabout-like vessels. And experimental science ships.<P>------------------<BR>Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue") <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>AndrewR</b> <br /><small>Member # 44</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,9,9,0,31,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">October 09, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">12:31 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Rom mentioned in 'Little Green Men' that 'Quark's Treaure' could out-run a Romulan Interceptor<P>------------------<BR>"The story..." Londo says, "is not over yet. The story is never over." <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>PsyLiam</b> <br /><small>Member # 73</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,9,9,19,20,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">October 09, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">07:20 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Or the Warbird could be such a great design that they don't have many other classes. Alternatively, they could have several classes, they all just <i>happen</i> to look like D'Deredix class Warbirds.<P>------------------<BR><I>Cordellia</I>: "Well, does looking at guns make you wanna have sex?" <BR><I>Xander</I>: "I'm seventeen. Looking at <I>linoleum</I> makes me wanna have sex."<P> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Jim Phelps</b> <br /><small>Member # 102</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,9,9,20,42,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">October 09, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">08:42 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Ok, I returned to the store, and didn't find the outline. I did find something more interesting, though: "Making of the Trek Films". An ILM employee confirms Okuda's statement that the BoP was originally supposed to be a Romulan ship commanded by Klingons. The change to a completely Klingon ship came while the model was being built - I guess that the model crew could have added a few Klingon details at that point, especially since the BoP was built off of sketches and prototypes, rather than detailed blueprints.<P>Also, the whaling ship from STIV is actually a 140-foot long WWII minesweeper, which the production crew located and refitted a bit.<P>Boris<P>------------------<BR>"Wrong again. Although we want to be scientifically accurate, we've found that selection of [Photon Energy Plasma Scientifically Inaccurate as a major Star Trek format error] usually indicates a preoccupation with science and gadgetry over people and story."<p>---a Writers' Test from the Original Series Writer's Guide<p> <br /> </font> </td></tr> </table></td></tr></table> <br /> <br />
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