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Posted by Jim Phelps (Member # 102) on :

...from my weekly scavenger hunt through New York's bookstores. Forgive me if you've seen this already, but it seemed kinda interesting and relevant to some of our past discussions. I haven't purchased any of the books referred to below, these are just a couple of notes I made:

1) The Jenolan was named after the Jenolan caves in Australia. That should take care of the spelling SWDAO. Ron Moore (who wrote "Relics") visited the place some time prior to episode, and that's also where the name Sydney comes from, BTW (TNG Companion).

2) I mentioned this in the Story Treatment thread already: much of the model work in Star Trek III was based on sketches rather than blueprints. Each of the ships/structures went through several prototypes before the final miniatures were constructed. The BoP went through two of them, and it was during the actual model construction that the decision was made to make it a Klingon (as opposed to a Klingon-owned) ship. Also, the whaling ship is really a 140-foot long WWII minesweeper, which should allow us to determine the scale of the BoP in the overhead shot. (The Making of Trek Films)

3) Two miniatures of the STV Galileo shuttle were built: a 5' long 1/6 scale model, as well as a 2.5' long 1/12 scale model. This results in an overall length of 30 feet or 9.1 meters. A corresponding 1/6 shuttlebay set was built and it was more than 20 feet wide, which means that the whole thing is about 120+ feet wide. (The Making of Trek Films)

4) The crew complement of Voyager is given as 125 in the first season writers' bible, and there are twenty Maquis aboard besides Chakotay and B'Elanna.

5) The Star Trek Compendium reproduces the original 1964 Star Trek outline to some extent. It's quite similar to the one in "The Making of Star Trek", barring an interesting bit in the ship specifications: a maximum speed of 0.73 light-years per hour.

6) In Stephen Poe's Voyager: Vision of the Future, the ship is referred to as a "no-nonsense destroyer/frigate" by a couple of producers, including Rick Sternbach. The latter also speculates there that the Intrepid class started its R&D phase ten years after the Galaxy (or 2353). There are also a couple of memos correlating the crew complement to the ship's length, which was set at about 1000 feet in the final stages. The registry was decided upon by Rick Berman based on Mike Okuda's suggested range of 73000+ ("I know it's trivial, but there are fans who freeze-frame VCRs" etc etc...much pleading necessary for this basic level of consistency). He also expressed worries about a sustainable cruise velocity of 9.975, noting that this means 10-12 years of travel rather than 75. It was suggested that the line be changed to Warp 9.0, but nobody listened. This doesn't really matter, of course, since 'sustainable' can also mean sustainable for only 10 minutes.

Boris

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"Wrong again. Although we want to be scientifically accurate, we've found that selection of [Photon Energy Plasma Scientifically Inaccurate as a major Star Trek format error] usually indicates a preoccupation with science and gadgetry over people and story."

---a Writers' Test from the Original Series Writer's Guide

Posted by Mikey T (Member # 144) on :

Nice job on the research. By any chance have you uncovered any info reguarding Wolf 359?

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Posted by Jim Phelps (Member # 102) on :

Thanks -what do you mean? It's a real star, 36 hours away at Warp 9 according to the TNG Companion. A few class names are given in the notes which I haven't written down. I'm sure that Bernd and other people could tell you much more about the various kitbashes than I could

Boris

---a Writers' Test from the Original Series Writer's Guide

[This message has been edited by Boris (edited October 09, 1999).]

Posted by Elim Garak (Member # 14) on :

Even if Ron Moore bludgeons us, I doubt we could all ever agree on how to spell Jenol[insert vowel here]n.

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Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue")

Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :

Jenolyn

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Go brain go.
-Qualcomm sloagan

Posted by Jim Phelps (Member # 102) on :

There is nothing to argue about, really. The class of ships started with an Australian city, and included a place in Australia. It is quite obvious that the Jenolan caves were intended here, just as it's obvious that the Mekong and the Rio Grande are named after the rivers, in tradition established by the first U.S.S. Danube.

Now, as for the spelling, we have Jenolin (model) and Jenolan (Okudagram). I probably need not restate all the instances in which the hull markings are plainly incorrect (or being deliberately changed) with respect to the scenic art. U.S.S. Defiant NCC-74210, U.S.S. Sao Paulo/Defiant NX-74205, U.S.S. Brittain (versus the intended Brattain), U.S.S. Prometheus NX-59650 etc, etc.

Boris

[This message has been edited by Boris (edited October 10, 1999).]

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Well, IMO, the only error in the above examples is the NCC-74210.

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Posted by Elim Garak (Member # 14) on :

How can the new Defiant NX-74205 not be an error?

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Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue")

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Maybe they changed the registry on the hull for sentimental reasons. Or maybe to spite the Dominion. "Didn't we destroy that ship?" "D'oh!"

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Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

74210? That would be the Valiant, IIRC. What's wrong with it?

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Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

This is.

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Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

Jynnohlyn.

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Hm... Let's get George Bernard Shaw in here so we can go ghotiing for new spellings... :-)

*wonders how many people will understand that reference*

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Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Sounds fishy.

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Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

With regard to the new Defiant having the same registry as the old, the real reason is that they reused the footage (REUSED the footage in the series finale you ask...). There is no other explanation. When the name Enterprise was reused, they stuck an A on the registry, for the very reason that NO TWO SHIPS HAVE THE SAME REGISTRY.....EVER!! That's the whole point of registries, to differentiate ships.

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"Resolve and thou art free."

Posted by Elim Garak (Member # 14) on :

Oh well, the finale wasn't about the biggest and best battle ever, anyway.

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Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue")

Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

1) I think "Jenolan" is the only choice. The hull marking wasn't readable anyway, unlike the wrong or questionable numbers of the Defiant, Prometheus and Br[a,i]ttain.

2) The information about the whaling ship is interesting. This would make the BoP much larger than 100m, as opposed to all other scenes in this movie. It is obvious that the Romulan reference must have been fropped in the course of the model construction. This is exactly what the BoP looks like. I wonder what stage the gray raw model in The Art of Star Trek (?) represents.

4) The authors didn't use this figure from the very beginning. There must have been 140 Starfleet + 20 Maquis or 130 Starfleet + 30 Maquis.

5) This speeds sounds very sensible. Fast enough in order not to spend all eternity to cross only the core of the Federation (comprised of planets which must be at least 100 LY across), and slow enough to restrict the area of operation.

6) Warp 9.975 is noticeably faster than any other ship. While I don't deny that it could be possible, could it be someone accidentally inserted another digit and it should read 9.75?

Boris: What do you remember about the kitbashes? Freedom/Firebrand, Niagara/Princeton, Rigel/Tolstoy, Challenger/Buran, Excelsior study, ST II study?

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Posted by Elim Garak (Member # 14) on :

Definitely 9.975. They've said it at least two or three times in the latter fifth and the beginning of the sixth seasons.

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Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue")

Posted by Jim Phelps (Member # 102) on :

Bernd: sorry, haven't read the part about the kitbashes at all. Will try to do so next time.

Now, as far as Voyager's crew complement is concerned: they started out with 141, and were up to 152 or 154 by the time of "37's". I always kinda assumed that several people died during Caretaker's initial shove, and this Maquis figure would place the number at about 11-13.

Boris

---a Writers' Test from the Original Series Writer's Guide

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

*looks at picture*

Ah...

Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

There were 140 crew members mentioned in "The 37's", in subsequent episodes it was always something in between 140 and 150, although a couple of ensigns were killed. In "Timeless" it is stated that there are 150, without Harry and Chakotay, and in "Dark Frontier" the Borg detect less than 150 again.

Posted by Jim Phelps (Member # 102) on :

Actually, I'm pretty sure that it was 150-something in "37's", not 140. Anyone have the episode to check?

Boris

---a Writers' Test from the Original Series Writer's Guide

Posted by The First One (Member # 35) on :

155, I believe. In "Dark Frontier" the Borg detect 143 on board. . .

Posted by Gaseous Anomaly (Member # 114) on :

Well, at least that's the Jenolan question settled at last.
SWDAO Case Closed.

Now, something different.
Upon watching 'Emmisary' the other day, I was wondering what were the names of the

The Excelsior that gets it's hull blown off - I've heard 'Melbourne' mentioned.
The Nebula that flies in formation with the
The Ambassador. I'm certain it's not a Galaxy.
The ship that blows up outside Sisko's quaters.
The ship that's seen to the top right of the Saratoga as it bites the dirt.

AAAAA, as per.

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-- Bender, Futurama.

[This message has been edited by Gaseous Anomaly (edited October 13, 1999).]

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

The name was almost certainly intended to be Jenolan, but the model still said Jenolin.

As for the Emissary ships, the first is the Melbourne, the second is the Bellerephon, the third is the Yamaguchi, and the fourth is the Oberth-class Bonestell. The fifth was probably meant to be the wrecked saucer of the Melbourne, according to "The Making of Deep Space Nine."

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Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :

Can't we just accept that the model spelling was a mistake in a similar way that the Prometheus rego was bungled?

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Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

No, because that which is shown on-screen is canon, just like the Prometheus's registry.

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"I can't find any good quotations." - Frank G

Posted by Jim Phelps (Member # 102) on :

Actually, Jenolan was also shown onscreen on the Okudagram. I checked it out, the capital A is unmistakeable.

Boris

---a Writers' Test from the Original Series Writer's Guide

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Of course, the computer could be wrong.

Oh well.

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"I can't find any good quotations." - Frank G

[This message has been edited by The Shadow (edited October 14, 1999).]

Posted by Gaseous Anomaly (Member # 114) on :

Cheers, Frank.
Doymond geeza. Now I'm happy.

*Wonders what in the hell an Oberth-class ship was doing going up against the Borg:

"Look Captain, there's a cloud of dark matter half-a-parsec the far side of Wolf 359."
"Well then Ensign, in order to investigate it to the standard that we ourselves have set for tedious number-crunching ,we'll jolly well have to go straight through where our boys'll be giving the Boche, I mean the Borg, one in the eye! Tally-ho!"
*

Posted by Elim Garak (Member # 14) on :

*Weyoun speak* The canon... will prevail!

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Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue")

Posted by Jim Phelps (Member # 102) on :

Frank: the computer spelling + historical spelling of an Australian feature that was used as the name of a ship belonging to a class named after an Australian city would form a rather strong coalition against the lonely hull painter if the matter were taken to vote...

Boris

---a Writers' Test from the Original Series Writer's Guide

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

I agree completely, but in terms of the Trek universe, the ship was still labeled "Jenolin."

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Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :

So, Frank, according to your interpretation of canon, the Andromeda, Antares, Bradbury, etc, etc, and more etc classes do not exist, since they were never seen OR mentioned on screen. But we KNOW they exist, since they obviously need to belong to some class. Therefore, since we KNOW that it is named after the Jenolan Caves, and we know the spelling of Jenolan, therefore, IT IS JENOLAN!

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"I am Sci-Fi"
-The 359

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Most of those classes were all on Okudagrams etc. This is why the new Encyclopedia doesn't give classes for ships like the Centaur...there simply wasn't one defined anywhere in an episode. And, for that matter, the Encyclopedia says this ship is named the Jenolen.

I'm not saying that the ship is called the Jenolin, but that was the name on the hull, and so the problem can't be definitively resolved.

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"I can't find any good quotations." - Frank G

Posted by The First One (Member # 35) on :

I've always gone for Jenolan *makes sure he's spelt it correctly* because it was a lot clearer on the Okudagram, while I couldn't even see the name on the model. . .

Posted by Elim Garak (Member # 14) on :

Next on the U.S.S. Enterforum: Shadows embark on a plan of chaos to define canon for the galaxy! Stay tuned.

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Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue")

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

I have a suggestion, Frank. How about, if two conflicting pieces of information are given, we accept the one that was obviously intended to be true? Make sense?

Here's an idea. How about a forum devoted solely to resolving debates over what's canon and what isn't?

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

This is actually a very simple issue. The show is canon. Only the show is canon. Writers of future shows are only obligated to be consistent with past shows. If a show conflicts with another show, or itself, then an entry gets added to SWDAO (if it has to do with ships, at least). There may be a very obvious explanation for such a conflict, but that doesn't mean the conflict still isn't there.

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Posted by Montgomery (Member # 23) on :

Personally, I'm willing to overlook the odd visual cock-up and define canon as that wihich appears on screen and makes reasonable sense to me.

Why, if you don't you have to deal with all the reverse-angle shots where NCC-1701-D is written out backwards as the ship flies from right to left!

Some things you just chalk up to human error. Of course I expect to get sliced by Frank's pink cutting ray for this attempt to impose order on chaos...

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Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Well, we really can't decide what's canon and what isn't. It has to be clearly defined. You can form your own opinions on a particular conflict, but that doesn't mean everyone will agree.

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Posted by Jim Phelps (Member # 102) on :

Frank: it seems nearly impossible to take out the intention of the producers/personal judgement from the analysis. I might just as well say (with reason) that the bridge walls are made of wood, and that there is nothing in those consoles other than wood, transparancies, and neon lights.

I'm thinking that if the footage were given to expert analysts, who have the adequate instrumentation to analyze the physical aspects of the interaction between the people and the set, they may notice a couple of aberrations.

Other than that, I'll add to the discussion Jake Sisko's spelling difficulties. The reason these errors (I think that we can agree that at least one of the spellings is in error) can crop up may be due to Starfleet's ignorance of proper spelling. Now, which one is correct is nearly obvious, unless the Federation has reverted back to Shakespearian times in which spelling was a matter of preference rather than a hard-and-fast rule.

Boris

---a Writers' Test from the Original Series Writer's Guide

[This message has been edited by Boris (edited October 17, 1999).]