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Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :

First of all thanks to everyone for your ideas about the Earth-Romulan war.

My next question regards the birth of the Terran warp drive with Cochrane's Phoenix.

Did this ship have a matter/antimatter (M/A) reactor? (I know that Riker says in "First Contact": "Bring the warp core on line." But this seems to me a rather modern expression, given that this is the first Earth ship with warp drive. I would think that "matter/antimatter reactor" would have been more appropriate. Or he just could have been using his modern term.)
Several objections to Phoenix having a M/A reactor:
1. Dilithium is supposedly needed to control the M/A reaction. Is dilithium available on Earth? It's not found on all planets, and if it were naturally occurring here, we probably would've read about it in the papers. (By the way, why would the Klingons use prisoners to mine this extremely important strategic resource on Rura Penthe? Especially with an energy crisis.)
2. Even if M/A reactors had been developed, producing antimatter seems extremely difficult. Even in the 24th Century, it is only manufacturered in limited locations. In the 21st century, I think manufacturing antimatter would've taken enormous resources (both material and monetary), probably not available to an entire country after a nuclear war and certainly not available at the glorified hobo camp around the Phoenix launch site. (The facilities also seem too primitive for warp drive, but that's another question.) During WWII's Manhattan Project, making enough fissionable material was the main bottle neck to atomic bomb production. I can believe Cochrane made the breakthrough of warp drive, but to make the additional simultaneous breakthrough of the M/A reactor seems unlikely.
3. Even if they could produce antimatter, it is an extremely dangerous substance. You wouldn't want to have that stuff anywhere near large groups of people without extreme safeguards.

If the key to warp drive is not a specific type of energy but rather the amount of energy, fusion power might be sufficient. Even today, we are pretty close to producing fusion energy. It's probably available by 2063.

Although it's not strictly canon, a cutaway poster of Phoenix has been published by Scipubtech. Does anyone have it? Does it show a warp core?

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Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

The Phoenix had a warp core in the sense that it had an engine dedicated to producing power for the warp drive. I think it is unlikely that the ship was powered by antimatter, considering the times. Post-apocalyptic America probably isn't a good place to find a particle accelerator.

As you say, fusion would probably provide an acceptable power source. The fuel for such an engine would be far more easier to come by and store.

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"And I can't approach myself, skating over this perdition."
--
Soul Coughing

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

I'va always assumed that the Phoenix had a fusion reactor and that "warp core" was another of Riker's idiotic slips. I mean, the guy really had no room to talk when he complained about Geordi's telling Cochrane about the statue. I mean, look at the paradox he created w/ that "Don't try to be a great man..." line. And I think he did the same thing by using (and, in effect, creating) the term "warp core".

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Posted by Obi Juan (Member # 90) on :

I think that it would be natural for him to say "warp core" even if that wasn't necessarily the corect term. But the again the term warp core could predate M/ARA. Was the term used in TOS? I seem to remember "warp engines" or something to that effect.
Thanks for posting this question Masao, I been kinda wonder about it myself. Personally I do not believe that dilithium is naturally occuring on Earth so even if they could produce antimatter, they could not control the reaction. Fusion seems a good bet- by 2061 even post apocalyptic refugees might own a MR. Fusion garbage disposal/warpcore.

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"Stood in firelight, sweltering bloodstain on chest like map of violent new continent." -Rorschach

[This message has been edited by Obi Juan (edited October 26, 1999).]

Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

No, Riker is no idiot this time. "Warp core" is a generic and very unprecise term for the device that produces the energy for the warp drive. As such, it has not very much to do with the propulsion itself. The quantum singularity of the Warbird could be dubbed "warp core" as well.

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :

Hmm...Riker introducing the term "warp core" thereby causing the word to exists. And..uh, ah hell. Riker is the person that created the term warp core in the 2064 Webster Dictionary.

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"This is where the adventure is. This is where heroes are made." - Dr. Bashir
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Posted by The First One (Member # 35) on :

Here's something you've forgotten. How do we know what improvements Geordi's Engineering team might have made to the ship? They could easily have removed anything anachronistic later. . . after all, several components were damaged beyond easy repair, hence the jury-rigging. If someone at a leter date asked "but where's the flux capacitor?" (or whatever) he could have replied that he took it out to use in his Mark II Warp Drive, rather than revealing that he used a 24th century one!

Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

I love paradoxes, so I agree with Hobbes

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Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :

Could the events in FC be a predestination paradox or whatever it's called? Meaning that warp drive would never have been invented without the Enterprise crew assistance. Sort of like what happens in Terminator.

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Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

I would rather say: If there is no paradox, then it would be predestination, but that's a matter of definition: http://www.uni-siegen.de/~ihe/bs/startrek/timetravel.htm
(not that I expect anyone to read this)

Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :

I read your time travel page ages ago. It was good - don't expect me to read it again, though

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"Forgive me if I don't share your euphoria!" (Weyoun to Dukat, Tears of the Prophets)
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Posted by Elim Garak (Member # 14) on :

Will Riker was meant to look stupid, you say, Bernd? That's the predestination in this case?

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :

Well there the Borg and Enterprise-E traveling back in time was mentioned in "Relavitity" remember.

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"This is where the adventure is. This is where heroes are made." - Dr. Bashir
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Posted by KXZ (Member # 119) on :

I don't think the Enterprise crew coming back in time created a paradox. The Borg came from the future and damaged the Phoenix. The Enterprise came from the future to repair whatever damage the Borg had done. It was just a matter of putting things right in the past, nothing changed too much.

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Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :

The third World War was referred to as a nuclear holocaust. Fission Warheads were probably still there after WWIII. I highly doubt that the Earth had developed fusion technology before, during, or after the war. Nuclear Fission devices were still being used in the Terran-Romulan War. Nuclear Fission (if harnessed right) can still yield lots of energy, though not as much as a fusion reaction.

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Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

I'm not sure I follow. We have plenty of atomic weapons that are powered by fusion now...

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"Like I told you, you are concentric in your form. When it's cold you've got yourself to keep you warm."
--
John Linnell

Posted by Baloo (Member # 5) on :

Sol System: If you read up on the subject, you will find that, aside from some (huge) experimental reactors that have yet to reach the break-even point (generating more energy than it takes to power them), all fusion "devices" (Bombs, that is) are triggered by a fission device. Just as it takes a match to light the fuse that explodes the dynamite, fission bombs use conventional explosives to trigger a nuclear explosion that triggers the fusion reaction. Fusion power is still in its infancy.

Tahna Los raises a valid point. We currently have the technology to create very compact fission power generators. As a matter of fact, a few years ago, someone developed such a generator that was self-contained, about the size of a wastebasket or garbage can, and generated enough power to provide all the electricity required by five conventional homes.

The Russians, especially, used fission generators to power their spy satellites, and all of our probes that explore past Mars also have fission powerplants. The sunlight beyond Mars is so weak that solar arrays must be impractically large to be of any use beyond that point.

It is quite plausible that the Phoenix's "warp core" is a small fission powerplant. Such a powerplant could be used to heat hydrogen (or some other material) into the plasma required by the warp drives.

--Baloo

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[This message has been edited by Baloo (edited October 27, 1999).]

Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :

I have a question about the Phoenix. Did it have a navigational deflector array?

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Posted by Kosh (Member # 167) on :

I kept reading down the thread, thinking I was the only one who thought the thing was Nuclear. Till I got to the bottom.

It would have to have some kind of deflector.

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Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :

Supporting the possibility of a fission reactor, remember that Lily collapsed in the missile silo near the beginning of the movie because of radiation leaking from (I think) a damaged throttle assembly of Phoenix. Any nuclear physicists out there who could clear this up?

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Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Oh, I know about fission powering fusion reactions in bombs...I was under the assumption that someone was implying that we didn't have any weapons that harnessed fusion at all.

As for the radiation, a fusion reaction is not totally radiation free, and while safer, I wouldn't want to stand next to one.

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"Like I told you, you are concentric in your form. When it's cold you've got yourself to keep you warm."
--
John Linnell

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Well, since the Phoenix wasn't torn to shreds, and the crew didn't come back as pancakes, I'd say it not only had a nav deflector, but a SIF and IDF, too.

Posted by KXZ (Member # 119) on :

The Pheonix actually sped up slowyly. Someone in it said that they reached critical speed. They were slowly speeding up. The reason that it did the stretch effect is probably because that is how a ship would always look going from sub light to faster than light.

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All hands, abandon ship! All hand, abandon...
BOOM!

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Er... At the speeds they were going just before they jumped to warp, the three guys in the cockpit would have been rather pressed to their seats w/o an IDF.

Posted by Baloo (Member # 5) on :

That depends on whether the acceleration was due to Newtonian action/reaction (rocket engines, in the case of the Phoenix) or the effects of the (primitive) warp drive.

From much of what I have read (and speculated) warp drive seems to sidestep action/reaction altogether. If there are any physics majors out there, go ahead and calculate the accelerative forces required to reach lightspeed in about a minute, in terms of the amount of matter you would have to anihilate to generate that much power. I imagine the amount exceeds the mass of the Phoenix and its occupants by many orders of magnitude. THAT is how much energy would be required to counter the accelerative forces unless the warp field accelerates everything within it at the same rate.

I always understoof the SIF was necessary for very large ships because the acceleration provided by the impulse engines is incredibly huge, not because they needed to counteract the effects of warp acceleration. Otherwise they would require more energy than exists in the entire universe just to reach warp one.

--Baloo

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[This message has been edited by Baloo (edited October 29, 1999).]

Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

Navigational deflector, IDF: Both technologies must have existed at the time. A "forcefield" is anything but a simple electromagnetic field, it must have amazing properties.

This shows that apart from the warp drive itself, technology must have evolved from 2000 to 2063, despite WW III and the fact that the Titan missile is ancient. I would have preferred a less severe WW III and a warp ship being launched from a space station. I think the way Cochrane' breakthrough is shown in FC is rather incredible.

Baloo is probably right about the SIF. This is necessary mainly because of the scaling paradox (seems to be my favorite topic) because otherwise a Galaxy could not remain in one piece.

Baloo: Will your next Latin signature be "Cave diem" and how will you translate it?

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Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :

Bernd, I agree with your suggestion that it's unlikely that Warp drive could have been developed in the environment shown in the movie. Before FC, in fact, before TNG, I envisioned the warp development project being something akin to the Manhattan project to develop the atomic bomb in world war II. I pictured scores of the world's best scientists working together at some enormous installation. Cochrane seems more like some guy tinkering in his garage. Also, the movie seems to show the development of warp drive as more of a mechanical problem than a theoretical problem. Cochrane as portrayed here doesn't seem like much of a thinker. I suppose that the filmmakers wanted to be iconoclastic, but I think they went too far in showing that Cochrane was just a "regular guy."

Regarding the structural integrity field, I believe Geordi does say sometime in the warp capsule "Structural integrity is holding."

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When you're in the Sol system, come visit the Starfleet Museum

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Hmm...I don't think you can assume that warp drive was concieved of and built during the war or its aftermath. Far more likely to assume that Cochrane was leading a project before the war to construct such a ship. Then the war came and destroyed said project. Cochrane, seeing his life's work shattered, becomes a broken man. But he decides that completing this ship might be worth something to him.

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"Like I told you, you are concentric in your form. When it's cold you've got yourself to keep you warm."
--
John Linnell

Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :

My comparison of a warp drive development project to the Manhattan Project was not to suggest that warp was a war-time project. I was just drawing attention to the investment of brainpower and resources that I think would be necessary for such a breakthrough. I agree that the war and its aftermath should have prevented work on big research projects. A nuclear World War III probably didn't last very long (hours? days?) and postwar reconstruction would have been considered more important. However, your suggestion that Cochrane was continuing a pre-war project is interesting.

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Posted by Baloo (Member # 5) on :

Masao: "Structural integrity holding." could just have been Geordi's way of saying "We don't seem to be falling apart."

I think Bernd, as an engineer, can probably confirm this definition. For example, despite the fact that several screws have fallen out of my desk chair (and subsequently been lost), it's structural integrity is only marginally compromised. Translation: My chair is missing a few screws but it doesn't seem to be noticably weaker because of this. My chair has no structural integrity field, but has structural integrity despite this lack (though if I lose any more screws, I'd better get some more or start looking for a new chair).

--Baloo

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[This message has been edited by Baloo (edited October 30, 1999).]

Posted by Gaseous Anomaly (Member # 114) on :

Baloo: If you lost any more screws, we'd be really worried. Sorry - I couldn't resist.

Anyway, I think have that calculation you posed

Acceleration from zero velocity to just under lightspeed, c, in one minute = (roughly)

a = [3* 10^8 m/s] / [60s] = 5 * 10^6 m/s^2.

Assuming a mass of say 3000kg for the missile and it's illustrious occupants, and it travelled about 200,000km,
then F = ma
=> F = 3000kg * 5*10^6m/s^2
= 1.5 * 10^10 N.

Therefore, energy required to move it x = 200,000km, at constant speed, is
E = F*x
= 1.5*10^10N * 2*10^8m
= 3 * 10^18 joules.

From E = mc^2,
=> m = E / c^2
= 3*10^18J * (3*10^8m/s^2)^2
m = 2.7 * 10^35J !!!

You were right, Baloo: even if my assumptions are off by a few orders of magnitude, there sure as hell isn't 0.27 bilion billion billion kilograms of matter aboard the Phoenix, science fiction or not.

But what does this imply?
The existence of a SIF field and it's generators?
I have to think so - otherwise we'd have seen Riker-pizza. Now wouldn't that be a shame.

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Posted by Baloo (Member # 5) on :

That's how much energy a SIF would have to counter. It takes energy to counter energy.

The SIF doesn't protect the people but the structure of the vessel. If the ship is accelerating at maximum impulse (about 200 gees for the Ent-D) the SIF keeps bits from fracturing and breaking off. The inertial dampers are what keeps people from becoming chunky salsa.

I still think that the "acceleration" due to the warp field affects the ship (and it's contents) as a whole, and is therefore not felt. Impulse engines, however, work on Newtonian action/reaction. Kick out the jams without the inertial dampers going and everyone will become so much loose protoplasm. Since the Phoenix doesn't have a 200-gee thruster, it would be quite simple to avoid the requirement for an SIF or inertial dampers by simply keeping the throttle below the "Strawberry Jam" setting.

--Baloo

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Posted by KXZ (Member # 119) on :

That sounds right. I'm not used to all this orange. Does everyone else see it? It is making me a little light headed.

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All hands, abandon ship! All hand, abandon...
BOOM!

Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :

Yes Commander Paris. I'm assuming (and hoping) it's just a Halloween thing.

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"This is where the adventure is. This is where heroes are made." - Dr. Bashir
Federation Starship Datalink - Now with a pop-up on every page...damn you Tripod!

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Yes, it's just a holiday gimmick. Don't worry... :-)