Flare Sci-Fi Forums: So called Kitbashes

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Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

I have a little nitpick about the term "kitbash" that I;d like to hash out guys. I realize that the DS9 tech manual refers to ships rushed into service and ships made of spare parts and what not. I've also seen the term kitbash used on the forums when refering to the Centaur type, the Shelley Class and the Yeager class.

Here's my problem. First of all the made up ships in the DS9 Tech Man are as impossible as they are stupid. I mean you've got parts that are way out of proportion to other parts. Also, I don't think you can just throw together a starship with two halves that were never made to fit together. Building a Fed Starship is a years long process.

Second of all, the only kitbashing actually done was by the modelmakers. For instance, the Centaur type uses an Excelsior saucer and a Miranda rollbar from the AMT kits. The kits may fit together, but the 'actual' scale doesn't. Therefore, that's not 'really' a Miranda rollbar. The Centaur and the Shelley are therefore ships that were designed the way they are, not thrown together. Discussion?

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"Resolve and thou art free."

Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :

Bernd's site has an excellent commentary on this topic.

Anyway, it's getting to the point where I don't believe anything the DS9TM says. The Kitbash pics and specs in the book are certainly absolute rubbish.

I like your idea that the ships are actually unique classes and not "kitbashes". It's fitting considering that the Centaur had visibly different nacelles than the Excelsior-class.

Are we to believe that when Starfleet built the Constellation it grabbed Miranda nacelles and saw their ends off? Of course not!

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Posted by Wes (Member # 212) on :

I don't know, sometimes nitpicking goes too far. I mean, common, these variants are only used in the far backrounds on Deep Space Nine, if the parts are out of scale, mabye they expanded the center areas with other spare parts, they only give you a side view anyway.... I really wish they would elaborate on those ships.

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Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

Well, beside the fact that most of those DS9TM ships are dumb, many of them have NEVER been on DS9 even in the far far background. OK, the Yeager Class (or Intrepid Variant 1 or whatever) appears to be an Intrepid saucer and a Peregrine butt. I have no problem believeing they did other things with an Intrepid-like saucer, but the Peregrine is way too small to be connected to an Intrepid. The design may be similar but it would have to have been scaled up, therefore, it was designed that way, not thrown together.

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"Resolve and thou art free."

Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :

Most logical, Aban Rune, Dax, and Wes1701E. I doubt many of the forum regulars other than me will post here, as most of them hate 'kitbashes' with a passion. If you ask me, These are kitbashes, but these are plausible classes.

So I used my own designs as examples of plausible classes. A few people here will agree with me.

BTW - There are 26 galleries to that first URL. Just keep on typing 2-26 in the URL to see the rest of them.

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Posted by Kosh (Member # 167) on :

I looked in. I don't have the background for commenting on Ships and kitbashes, but I'm slowly taking it in.

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :

Uh..Fabrux, what exactly are those things in the first link you gave?

As far the DS9 kitbashes goes, I don't mind them. Though I tend to believe the Centaur type to be a class, Centaur-class for lack of a better name, rather than some Starfleet put together with spare parts.

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Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :

The Centaur is obviously a class since we have seen ships that look exactly like her in other episodes.

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Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :

They're Dr. Seuss's worst nightmares! I think they're supposed to be ships, but I'm not sure.... They scare me. Believe it or not, I used to look up to the people who designed those things. But then I started kitbashing, and after about a month or so I started laughing. And getting really scared...

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[This message has been edited by Fabrux (edited November 01, 1999).]

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Well, we saw one such ship in "Behind the Lines," and that might have been the Centaur itself.

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :

Yep Fabrux, Kitbash design is fun.

Sorry for pluggin' my design. But I like it so much.

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Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

I completely agree with Aban Rune. I see my article as a first approach to the topic, maybe I will reconsider a few things. The suggestion that only the models are kitbashed while the real starships are not is one of the most important arguments.

Dax: You got the point. It is obvious that the design of the Constellation nacelles is based on the Miranda nacelles, but Starfleet definitely didn't take existing Miranda nacelles and chopped off the ends. They certainly built custom nacelles of a similar type for the new ship. So not the "real" Constellation but only the model is a kitbash.

Fabrux: I wonder if the designer's of the ships in Frankenstein's horror cabinet (aka Ptzue colony) are fond of their ships themselves...

I tend to believe the Centaur-like ship in "Behind the Lines" was the Centaur herself. Captain Reynolds made it back from his mission deep inside Dominion territory!

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Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

Obviously the Centaur is the Centaur. They call it the U.S.S. Centaur in the ep. That doesn't mean it's Centaur Class, though. For now we can only call them Centaur Type ships. As for the Constellation relation to the Miranda. Those kind of nacelles were obviously in frequent use during that period. Constitution refit, Constellation, Sydney, Miranda, Shelley: they all use those style nacelles. But the ships themselves were designed as unique classes.

I loathe (mostly) people who just take canon parts, rearrange them, and call it a new class of ship. If however, they were to show up on one of the shows, we would have to accept them as unique classes. Starfleet doesn't kitbash, Star Trek does (sometimes).

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"Resolve and thou art free."

Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :

Aban Rune, are you referring the type of stuff Fabrux and I do? It's fun. Maybe Fabrux could explain it better than I.

Or are you referring to the kitbashes such as the Centaur or Shelley/Curry? I agree, you'd think that the artists for DS9 would come up with better designs for the show.

[This message has been edited by Hobbes (edited November 02, 1999).]

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Aban: Not the Centaur when it attacked Sisko's bug. There was another one seen in a shot of Starbase... er... whichever-number-it-was... in a later ep. They never said that that one was the Centaur, though it could have been.

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Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

I guess I never noticed another Centaur type other than the one that attacked the bug. Which ep?

And I guess loath is a strong word. I mean fun is fun. Some of the stuff I've seen is good and creative, but as an illustrator and designer, I prefer to see completely original ship designs that perhaps resemble ships of a specific era. I love alot of the things you'll see at scifi-art.com and the links from there.

Didn't mean to offend anybody. And, no, I actually like the Cenatur and the Shelley. The Yeager is borderline since it's so obviously a Peregrine butt stuck on the end. I thought the Centaur was a clever use of the Excelsior saucer and was a different enough type of ship to be cool.

For all those battle scenes at the end of the series though, wouldn't it have been cool to see some brand new ships instead of reused footage. REUSED FOOTAGE IN THE SERIES FINALE??? I guess that's another thread though.

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"Resolve and thou art free."

Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :

Yep, the USS Centaur was the best of those "kitbash" ships. I'd be surprised if that Centaur-type ship in the other ep was given a different name or rego. We might as well assume it was the USS Centaur again.

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"Forgive me if I don't share your euphoria!" (Weyoun to Dukat, Tears of the Prophets)
Dax's Ships of STAR TREK

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Didn't we see a three-ship formation of Centaur-ish ships in at least two filler shots during the "War Argh"? I remember seeing these flying to the lower left of SB 375, far in the background, and wondering whether they could be Mirandas, but the nacelles seemed far too long and widely separated... There was also another type of filler which featured a formation of Mirandas, but those were closer to the station.

Also, perhaps the Centaur was built concurrently with the early Excelsiors, and all her sisters are more than seventy years old by now? Perhaps the bulges and greeblings under her hull are an indication of life-extending refits, which are becoming less and less viable? The design might not be as long-lived as the Excelsior if the smaller internal volume translates to less space for system upgrades. Thus, the scarsity of appearances.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

I like the idea that the Centaur is a real class. Actually, all DS9TM kitbashes (if we have to accept their existence) must be classes, since it is not logical to put together parts of different ships, no matter what the motivation is.

However, I wonder why the Centaur could be identified so easily in "A Time to Stand". Because it is the only ship of this kind? Other possibilities: Maybe the hull number was readable, or there were hints in the Jem'Hadar database. I don't think that anything from Starfleet was on board, otherwise they could have communicated with the Centaur on a secret channel without the Jemmies noticing it.

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

A few weeks ago, I looked through all the episodes from "A Time to Stand" to SoA, and the lone ship in "Behind the Lines" was the only Centaur-type one.

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Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :

Well, lots of people here will tell you that my "kitbashes" are creative, for the most part.

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Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :

Timo and Bernd: It is possible the USS Centaur is the last/only ship of that class in existance. That would explain why it was so easy to identify, and also why we haven't seen the design as any other ship (conclusively, anyway).

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"Forgive me if I don't share your euphoria!" (Weyoun to Dukat, Tears of the Prophets)
Dax's Ships of STAR TREK

Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

Dax: This is exactly what I tried to suggest (although I like the idea of a class much more), I only forgot to mention it. It seems I have to get accustomed to come directly to the point before I miss it.

Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :

What about the Amargosa Observatory and the wormhole relay station? Both are the same, only the wormhole relay station is a scaled down version of Amargosa.

This statement is regarding the possiblity of scaling parts to fit something else.

[This message has been edited by Hobbes (edited November 04, 1999).]

Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :

Bernd: Nah, don't stress

That was just my way of agreeing with what you wrote.

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"Forgive me if I don't share your euphoria!" (Weyoun to Dukat, Tears of the Prophets)
Dax's Ships of STAR TREK

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

I like the idea of scaling design elements fine. It makes sense that they would use technology that has been proven and scale it to fit other ship classes. The point is though, that they were designed that way, not mixed and matched from other ships.

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"Resolve and thou art free."

Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

*agrees perfectly with Dax*

Hobbes: In the case of the Amargosa/wormhole relay, the similarity must be a coincidence. The usual fan explanation for scaled components (which usually doesn't apply) is that the larger and the smaller version have similar performance, the larger version has only more power. This excuse is not possible for the Amargosa/wormhole relay. The first is a scientific station, built to accomodate humans with their labs and equipment. The second is a satellite, small enough to be carried aboard a starship. There is virtually nothing that these two things have in common, except that they both use some kind of subspace antennas, and these could look similar, but not the same.

Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :

Speaking of scaling- I've just seen "Tacking into the Wind" (excellent episode). Anyway, is it just me or was the Hideki-class "shuttle" a fraction of the size of the Hideki-class "fighters" in "Call to Arms"? Makes me think of the Kazon raider/shuttle paradox.

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"Forgive me if I don't share your euphoria!" (Weyoun to Dukat, Tears of the Prophets)
Dax's Ships of STAR TREK

[This message has been edited by Dax (edited November 13, 1999).]

Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

I haven't seen the episode, but I will carefully watch it. Unfortunately, to the producers the ships and shuttles are nothing but plot vehicles, and a sufficient number of ships of different sizes cannot be built. Ideally, each civilization should be given at least for distinct ship sizes:
1. a shuttle
2. a small vessel of around 100m
3. a larger one of 300m
4. a huge one of 1000m

Posted by TerraZ on :

Personally, I hate bad kitbashing (Curry / Shelley, Centaur, Yeager). The general shape of those ships are good but the fact that parts of other ships are obviously patched together makes those ship very ugly. I prefer to think of kitbash as having the same shape but a lot better detailing. For exemple, I absolutely refuse to accept that a Maquis raider's hull as been enlarge by a factor of 10 and welded to and Intrepid saucer instead of a custom engineering hull that vaguely looks like the former.

I'm not really against scaling parts, as long as they are not completely identical. Take the Galaxy and New-Orleans warp engines : they look about the same, but the New-Orleans is longer is respect to the Galaxy's and has two extra "holes" on the top. Also, some parts are more acceptable when scaled than others in my opinion. Sovereign and Nova nacelles are very similar but are still different and both look cool. However, if I were to see a scaled down Constitution engine, I don't think I would accept it. I know it's only a matter of taste, but that's how I feel.

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[This message has been edited by TerraZ (edited November 12, 1999).]

Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

...exactly what I think too. Careful ship design (and even kitbashing can be done carefully) is much like real engineering. The design has to be functional in the real world and has to look functional as a model.

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

Regarding the Yeager, I think it was a rather clumsy patch too. However, I suppose it's possible that the saucer was scaled down to the Raider size, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Of course, the real explanation for the creation of these ships is that the SFX crew needed some new ships so they canabalized some AMT models and put these new ships together. In the Trek world, the various parts aren't scaled correctly, but (low and behold) the AMT fit together just like they do for the Shelley Class, the Centaur type and the Yeager Class.

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Posted by Socko on :

Since somebody mentioned the Yeager, here's something I noticed: Take a look at the aft section of the Yeager diagram in the DS9TM. Now take a look a diagram of the Maquis Raider. You may notice that the DS9TM diagram is missing the small engines.

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Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

I wouldn't include the Centaur among a list of bad kitbashes, personally.

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Posted by Sir Camelot on :

If we are talking about kitbashed ship how about the different styles of starbase we have seen, ie ST I, to ST II, and then to the DS9 style of Fed starbase that is based all on ST I base.

Posted by TerraZ on :

I consider the starbase kitbashes to be pretty good, much like the countless Miranda modification. They only add or remove a few parts and it would be consistant with Starfleet's use of the same hull type. However, if they suddenly decided to take the Spacedock's upper saucer and patched it up with the Regula's lower cylinders, it would really be dreadful. As long as they reuse parts from the same class or add completely new ones, it almost always makes god kitbashes (Nebula, Miranda, New Orleans, Cheyenne). When they mix disparate pieces, we get monsters (Centaur, which is the best "bad" kitbash, Shelley, Yeager and the thankfully unseen Medusa and the 2 others from the DS9TM.

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-If you ask me, I think continuity is highly overrated...
*Brannon Braga*

-Give me Good Trek or give me Death!
*Me*

-Where were you when the brains were handed out?
*Sonic the Hedgehog*

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

I agree with Sol System that the Centaur was a good kitbash by the creators. Like the non-canon Akyazi Class, it is similar to the styles of the time it was created, but is different enough to be it's own unique design.

The Shelley would be my second fav of these new ships since I think the changes to the Excelsior Class can be explained. The Yeager was just sort of a bad idea.

And Socko, don't believe anything you see in the DS9TM. You'll only hurt yourself. I think it's been kind of decided by alot of people that that ships section was a mistake :-(

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"Resolve and thou art free."

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

By the way TerraZ, what is the Medusa Class and where was this seen/ mentioned? I've never heard of it before. I do love finding out about new ships though.

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"Resolve and thou art free."

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

No, I'm from Iowa, I only work in outer space...

oops sorry major Star Trek: IV flashback.

The Medusa I think is a nickname for that crazy kitbash from the DS9 Tech Manual that has two excelsior saucer halfs joined together and three nacelles.

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Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

Oooooh, eeeeck. blaaaggg!!!!

*gurgles*

*turns to stone*

*plots to go home and destroy the ships section of his DS9TM*

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"Resolve and thou art free."