Flare Sci-Fi Forums: Size of the Freedom

This is topic Size of the Freedom in forum Starships & Technology at Flare Sci-Fi Forums.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://flare.solareclipse.net/ultimatebb.php/topic/6/549.html

Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :

On Bernd's site I found a chart with a Freedom Class of 430m long. That's if the nacelles are the same as a Galaxy. But on the ASDB site the Freedom is only half the size, some 213m. That's quite a difference.

The windows in the neck are 2m wide in the 430m model and 0.9m in the 213m model. I don't know what the standard is, but i thing 2m is a bit too wide.
I think the 213m model is the best.

------------------
"There will be an answer, let it be..."
Motto of the USS Sutherland

Posted by Saboc on :

The Freedom's design team must have been drunk when they designed the Freedom class. A large starship with only one nacelle? The idea is interesting but illogical.
By the way, I think the smaller measurement is more sound.

------------------
"The Founder is wise in all things..."
"We live to serve the Founders..."

[This message has been edited by Saboc (edited December 24, 1999).]

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

When you think about it - what is the ONLY unscalable part of the Freedom? We KNOW that the E-D Nacelles can coming in a few sizes and that saucer could be anything - sort of an Ambassador variant? The neck is of old pre refit constitution design!! We have only EVER seen one size for this part. has anyone bothered to scale the Freedom to fit this part?

Andrew

------------------
"Its a CLOCK!" - Sisko, "Dramatis Personae" DS9.

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Well, if they useda neck from a kit, and the kit was at a different scale than the one(s) used for the other parts, it could be that it is a different size than a Constitution neck.

------------------
"'...This boy is Ignorance. This girl is Want. Beware them both, and all of their degree, but most of all beware this boy, for on his brow I see that written which is Doom, unless the writing be erased. Deny it!' cried the Spirit stretching out its hand towards the city. 'Slander those who tell it ye! Admit it for your factious purposes, and make it worse. And abide the end!'"
-Charles Dickens, A Christmas Carol

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

Oh yes, but I'm talking about in the 'Trek Universe' - of course yeah they could have just used kits of different scales - but aren't we trying to get the TREK length? Also, I'm not saying they HAVEN'T rescaled the Constitution neck - its just that out of the parts that make up the Freedom - they only part we haven't seen as a variable and/or unknown scale is the constitution neck... oh on 'established classes' I mean... this is walking on eggshells but at least for the New Orleans and the Melbourne from Sisko's Office and Future Imperfect which both have Galaxy Nacelles smaller than the norm...

and that saucer could be ANYTHING... it looks Ambassadorish to me - generally it being roundish and having that Ambassador like smaller saucer-section shuttlebay.

Andrew

------------------
"Its a CLOCK!" - Sisko, "Dramatis Personae" DS9.

Posted by Laz1701 on :

Judging from the size of the windows, and the Constitution neck, I'd say the Freedom is about the same size as the old Saladin/Hermes classes.

------------------
The Starship Encyclopedia

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Andrew: I don't think the saucer is round. I'm pretty sure it's elliptical, like a Galaxy. They probably used a nacelle from a large E-D kit, and a saucer from a small one.

Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :

If you take a close look to the Freedom schematic, the neck doesn't look like a Constitution or Const. Refit neck at all. And even it it did, who says Starfleet actually used the *original* necks. Maybe they designed them again.

If the necks are real Const., than the Freedom is not much larger than the 418m model.

From www.shipschematics.net

[This message has been edited by Prakesh (edited January 07, 2000).]

Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

The problem is that the Freedom neck as depicted has decks twice as tall as the saucer. Since the saucer decks match roughly with the size Galaxy nacelle, I get 430m, while Lance took the neck decks and got 215 which is equally reasonable, since the smaller the more credible the ship would be. Lance assumes that the nacelles are the same size as those of the New Orleans.

There is no proof the neck is actually taken from the Constitution, we have only the information of Okuda's (in)famous slide show years ago on a convention. The BoBW scene shows only the top, and at least the saucer is exactly as depicted in the Fact Files.

------------------
"Naomi Wildman, sub-unit of Ensign Samantha Wildman, state your intentions." (VOY: "Infinite Regress")

Posted by Jaresh Inyo on :

That is one ugly ship.

------------------
"I promise you, Wilma, that not one man on this force will rest until the criminal scum that did this are behind bars. Now let's go get a bite to eat." - Frank Drebbin, Detective Lieutenant in Police Squad

Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :

It looks like a frying pan. Or a mutant emu.

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Of course, it might be intended to be a very fast ship, a courier or something. In that case, all that would be needed is a small space for the people to be in, and one huge warp engine. Form follows function...

------------------
"...more people buy Harry Potter novels than the works of Alexander Pope, but that's no measure of their quality."
-Tom Aylward-Nally, December 29, 1999

Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :

That is one ugly design! They sure don't design 'em like they used to!
BTW, I thought that Roddenburry insisted that all starships had an EVEN number of nacelles? (including the non-canon ones)

------------------
"Cry havoc and let's slip the dogs of Evil"

[This message has been edited by The_Evil_Lord (edited January 07, 2000).]

Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :

There is a theory that the Galaxy Class nacelles are "two-in-one", because of the double lights in the ramscoops. That explains the Freedom class, but also the Niagara (3 nacelles).

------------------
So small,
So innocent, so young, So delicately done
Grown up in your poison.

"Little Baby Swastikkka"
-Skunk Anansie

Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :

And the award to the worst starship designed ever goes to the Freedom-class.

Where's the navigation deflector array on that thing?!

------------------
Calvin: "You don't think humans evolved from monkeys?"
Hobbes: "I sure don't see any difference."
Federation Starship Datalink - Starship site of the new millennium.

Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :

Where's the nav def on the Miranda, Soyuz, Oberth, Constellation, Cheyenne, Olympic, Daedalus, Centaur, Yeager and the Holoship?

(why am I defending this ship?)

------------------
So small,
So innocent, so young, So delicately done
Grown up in your poison.

"Little Baby Swastikkka"
-Skunk Anansie

Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :

1) Only the big ships have deflectors because SF could care less about its uglier and smaller ships

2) Or, sometime between the TOS and TNG era, an enormous amount of spacedust suddenly appeared and then disappeared again (making deflectors required items) between TNG and TNG "AGT"

3) Or, starship designers of the future are just plain stupid and forget to include deflectors all the time

4) Or, the smaller ships have deflector arrays which are cloaked because otherwise the design would look even uglier

5) Finally, the deflectors use some sort of Inspector Gadget trick when they are needed - "go go navigation deflector... there's a large rock in our way and we can't go around it"

------------------
"Cry havoc and let's slip the dogs of Evil"

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

Let's see if we can find the deflectors, hmmm.

Yeager: The Yeager class's deflector is on the front of the saucer section underneath it's big front sensor palette. It's the same as the secondary deflector on Intrepid classes.

Constellation: On the front of the edge of the saucer. It's a grate-looking thingy.

Oberth: Same answer.

Daedalus: I think the Daedalus has a deflector on the front of its engineering section just like the Constitution.

Centaur, Miranda, Soyuz: Could be the forward facing section of the "cross"-looking thing on the underside of the saucer.

Olympic: Probably part of the front of the engineering section.

I would guess that the nav def on the ugly-a$$ Freedom here is the same place the secondary nav def is on the Galaxy class, the underside of the saucer, right in front of the Captain's Yacht.

Remember, all nav defs don't have to be big and glowy. Some ships' nav defs may not be all that functional but restricted to the bare essential of moving crap out of the way.

------------------
"A gathering of Angels appeared above my head. They sang to me this song of hope, and this is what they said..." -Styx

Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :

Aban: I agree with you on the deflector location on the Centaur, Miranda, and Soyuz - but be aware that the Constellation also has that structure on its bottom (probably deck 14).

------------------
"Forgive me if I don't share your euphoria!" (Weyoun to Dukat, Tears of the Prophets)
Dax's Ships of STAR TREK

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

Dax: I just looked at the Constellation side view on your site, and you're right, there is one of those cross things on the bottom of the saucer, evidently a fairly standard structure for ships of that era. The structure I was talking about is like one of the grates on the side rim of the saucer visible in your schematic. The Franklin Mint (or some other "stuff" manufacturer) made a model of the Constellation Class and cast that front grate in gold. I've always assumed that this was because that was the main deflector.

Oh, and I just saw a pic of the Olympic class studio model. About 3/4 of the way down the globe, there is an indentation that runs all the way around the ball. The front part of that strip appears to be glowwing blue as if there was a very thin deflector on there. Go to Hobbes' Fed Starship Datalink and you'll see the pic I'm referring to.

------------------
"A gathering of Angels appeared above my head. They sang to me this song of hope, and this is what they said..." -Styx

[This message has been edited by Aban Rune (edited January 07, 2000).]

Posted by TerraZ on :

Aban Rune: Well, I think I should the following possible correction to your deflector list although this is purely my ideas (and Jackill's in some case):

Constellation: I always assumed (and Jackill's guide, although non-canon and innacurate) that that grate was the shuttlebay. The deflector may be the underside "cross" in addition to two ellispe-shaped thingies under the saucer.

Oberth: Same thing, the grate might just be the shuttle bay, although a small one. The deflector could be on the front of the engineering section behind the round hull plates (Jackill says it's also a big sensor array).

Centaur: In addition to the cross, it's got all sorts of small pods under the saucer of which some could also act as additional deflector.

Miranda, Soyouz: Jackill says that in addition of the cross, there are the two small cylinders, one on each side of the bridge where the saucer meets the rear section.

Freedom: The deflector is definitely that big thing hanging from the bottom of the saucer in the place where a yacht should go.

I'd also like to point out that the deflector does not necessarely needs to be all open and exposed to work. It could be hidden from view by the hull (Olympic, Deadalus, Oberth) and still work well (although why they'd want to hide them in the first place is beyond me).

------------------
-If you ask me, I think continuity is highly overrated...
*Brannon Braga*

-Where were you when the brains were handed out?
*Sonic the Hedgehog*

Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :

The_Evil_Lord: 1) Only the big ships have deflectors because SF could care less about its uglier and smaller ships

It that's true, why does the Nova class, the second smallest starship in the Fleet, have two deflector arrays?

------------------
Chris's Home Page
"Look out, muppets!"
-Sgt. Joe Friday, Dragnet

Posted by Laz1701 on :

Actually, the Freedom neck seems to be a hybrid of the Constitution/Constitution refit necks. The windows may be a different shape than the windows on either of those necks, but look at the torpedo launchers. Same shape as the Constitution refit, and probably the same size as well.

------------------
The Starship Encyclopedia

Posted by Laz1701 on :

I agree the thing underneath the Freedom's saucer is the deflector.
When you first look at the front view, it looks like there are windows there, but there can't be a deck there because the side view shows how the area gets shallow to the rear.

What I'd like to know is, what is that thing underneath the front end of the nacelle?

------------------
The Starship Encyclopedia

Posted by TerraZ on :

A horrible thought crossed my mind... Where's the core on that thing? In the neck? Possible, but how do they dump it? In the small thing under the nacelle? Too small, unless the core starts from the top of the neck and passes through the nacelle and down to that small section. Would it be "acceptable" by design standard to have a core through the nacelle?

------------------
-If you ask me, I think continuity is highly overrated...
*Brannon Braga*

-Where were you when the brains were handed out?
*Sonic the Hedgehog*

Posted by Justin_Timberland (Member # 236) on :

Maybe the warp core is in the saucer. I mean look how small the M/ARA core of the Defiant Class is.

------------------
Sometimes I run
Sometimes I hide
Sometimes I'm scared of you
But all I really want is to hold you tight
Treat you right, be with you day and night
Baby all I need is time

-Britney Spears

Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :

I recalculated the size of the Freedom, with 24 decks, taking the neck-decks as a standard and including the thing under the nacelle. My answer is 330m. The nacelle in this case is 193m long, slightly ;arger than the New Orleans one.

The core could be at the end of the saucer, extended in the neck, I think this fits in the standard SF design.

------------------
So small,
So innocent, so young, So delicately done
Grown up in your poison.

"Little Baby Swastikkka"
-Skunk Anansie

Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :

Here's another question, where is/are the impulse engine(s)?

------------------
So small,
So innocent, so young, So delicately done
Grown up in your poison.

"Little Baby Swastikkka"
-Skunk Anansie

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

The warp core could be in the neck. To eject it, they would shoot it up through the rear ventral of the saucer.

As for the size... It seems that the NO and Chey. were constructed using two sizes of model kits. One was used for almost the entire ship, the larger for the bridge. If we take this to mean that the NO and Chey. bridges are the same size as a Galaxy bridge, we know that the other Galaxy-esque parts are 5/9 the size of normal Galaxy parts. We can take this further and assume that, during that time period, all the ships that used Galaxy-esque parts had parts 5/9 the size they are now. This doesn't violate the idea of non-scalable ships (aka "The Bird-of-Prey Dillemma"), because nacelles are easily scalable, and the other parts used (saucer, engineering hull, etc.) have their windows altered, meaning that the internal structure (decks) is different.

Now, if we apply this 5/9 scaling factor to the Freedom nacelle, the ship becomes 239m long. The Niagara, BTW, would be 244m, using the same principle.

To me, this makes the most sense. We know, from the New Orleans and Cheyenne, that SF used to use ship parts that look like Galaxy parts, but are smaller. Because we know the size of the model kits used (a 1/18 kit for the ships, and a 1/10 kit for the bridges), we can determine just how much these parts are "scaled down" by. Assuming that SF used these same 5/9 parts in all its Galaxy-esque ships of that era, we have the sizes. Granted, this is an assumption, but it's a perfectly logical one.

------------------
"...more people buy Harry Potter novels than the works of Alexander Pope, but that's no measure of their quality."
-Tom Aylward-Nally, December 29, 1999