Flare Sci-Fi Forums: The 20 years inbetween

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Posted by bryce (Member # 42) on :

I don't want to make anyone mad for stealing their idea, but can we throw out ideas on why Starfleet did not have an Enterprise for 20 years after the destruction of the C? Is there any info on this?

My guess is there was no justification for making another Ambassador the E-D and that there were not any other explorer class ships being produced at the time to carry the name. All the ships we know of between the Ambassador and the Galaxy were not of an explorer type. (?) Therefore, Starfleet had to wait 20 years for the Galaxy before they could launch a new Enterprise.

Also, I back my idea up by the fact they launched the E-E when they did. Starfleet had a new explorer class, and could commission a new Enterprise.

Ideas?

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Posted by Obese Penguin (Member # 271) on :

Maybe the Galaxy Class was already in the design stage and they didnt want to start buliding an Ambassador when in a couple of years they would have the Galaxy thats why the Ent-D was one of the first ships in the first Batch of Galaxys.

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Posted by Justin_Timberland (Member # 236) on :

Well, there could be other reasons that there was no Enterprise for twenty years after Nerendra III. Starfleet could have been recovering from that incident, Starfleet Command could have waited for the first batch of Galaxy Classes, or that Starfleet was busy with the Cardassian Wars. Who knows, but in any case, it was strange that there was a 20 year gap between the loss of the Enterprise-C and the launch of the Enterprise-D. And what the length of time between the decommission of the Enterprise-A and the launch of the Enterprise-B?

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Posted by Basill on :

The TNG Tech manual says the Enterprise-D was launched in late 2363. This is corroborated by Picard noting that the Enterprise-D was, "less than a year out of spacedock" in one of the earliest episodes of the first season (mid to late 2364). This would indicate that she was close to but not quite a year from commissioning. I would personally estimate 6 to 9 months. This would mean that the Enterprise-D was already 3 1/2 to 4 years out of spacedock by the third season episode "Yesterday's Enterprise." The Enterprise C was destroyed 20-21 years before that episode. Now it took something like 12-13 years to complete the ship that would be Enterprise-D (if you believe the TNG Tech manual which says the keel was laid in 2350) If you add the development and service years up (even if you have to estimate a little) you get at least 15 1/2 years that the Enterprise D was an entity in the Star Trek Universe prior to "Yesterday's Enterprise." A mere 4 1/2 to 5 1/2 years between Enterprises doesn't seem that long to me, especially considering the major achievement that the Galaxy class was purported to be in its early development (which was already in progress when the Enterprise-C was lost). Seems rather a fitting honor to the C in my opinion.

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Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

Hmm... If the ship was lauched in 2263... and Picard took command in 2264... who was in command for that missing year?

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Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

Most likely the ship had an operational commander during it's contruction and shakedown down time. I believe there was a commander Orfil Quinteros that was in charge of the ships construction. He appeared in the first season episode with the Binars. Check the Encyclopedia.

I disagree with the length of time it took to construct the Enterprise D. I mean, I'm sure the texts say what you say they say, I just can't believe it. The Nebula classes were already in service by the time the Enterprise was built. The Saucer and nacelle construction techniques would have been proven for the most part.

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Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :

Relevant Notes: The Ent-D was launched from Utopia Planitia 40759.5 and Picard took command 41148 at McKinley ("All Good Things"). That's a gap of nearly 5 months.

All the Enterprises were produced as one of the earliest ships of her class except the A.

The Ent-B was launched the same year the Ent-A was decommissioned!

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Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

And even the A was the first or one of the first refit Constitutions. Although I suspect the refitting projects in starfleet at that time covered many ships and several classes. Certainly more than just the Enterprise. Probably either the Miranda or the Soyuz class were refit with the new nacelles. It's also likely that the Oberth class was refit at this time too. But I digress...

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"A gathering of Angels appeared above my head. They sang to me this song of hope, and this is what they said..." -Styx

Posted by Justin_Timberland (Member # 236) on :

Well, I am still not sure why it would take 20 years to launch another Starship Enterprise. And what was it that reporter said in Generations about Kirk and 30 years since he commanded an Enterprise? If the Enterprise-A was decommissioned the same year of the launch of the Enterprise-B, what was that person talkin' about?

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Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :

Justin: The reporter asked him how he felt about the E-B being the first Enterprise in 30 years without Kirk in command.

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Posted by devinclancy on :

Aban, I think you're confusing the Ent-A with the refit Ent-nil. The Ent-A didn't show up until Trek IV, and at the time seemed to be old tech.

-Devin

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Why is everyone surprised that there was a gap in the Enterprises? I mean, at the time, do you think Starfleet really cared whether or not there was a ship w/ that name? "Enterprise" is rather a revered name in the current time in the Trek universe because of the combined exploits of Kirk and Picard. But, when the E-C was destroyed, it had been over forty years since an Enterprise had done anything noteworthy (so far as we know). At that time, SF wouldn't have had any reason to name a ship "Enterprise" ASAP. Besides, there were wars w/ the Cardassians and Tholians during that twenty-year time period; I'm sure they had other things on their minds.

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Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

$
Minor
$
Well, they were concerned enough about the Defiant and Sisko's hurt fealings to taje the time to tell him he could change the name of the Sao Paulo to the Defiant during the Dommie War. Plus, in "The Measure of a Man", Admiral Nokamura said that "For the last 100 years, evry ship that has born the name Enterprise has been a legend. This ship is no different." I'd say that applies to the Ent B and the Ent C. I think it's safe to say that they did some rather legendary things themselves.

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"A gathering of Angels appeared above my head. They sang to me this song of hope, and this is what they said..." -Styx

Posted by Obese Penguin (Member # 271) on :

$
$
$
minor

I dont know about the Ent-B but the Ent-C did stop the war between the Klingons and the Fed . Remember TNG: "Yesterdays Enterprise" ?

The Ent-C engaged 4 Romulan Warbirds that were attacking the klingon outpost at narrada III , even though the Ent-C was outnumbered she did destroy some Birds before she herself was downed , the Klingons which werent getting along with the Fed at the time viewed the Ent-C's actions as most Honorble and the Klingons signed a second peace treaty with the Fed .

So atleast the Ent-C was famous , i still dont know about the Ent-B .

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Posted by Elim Garak (Member # 14) on :

Wasn't the Enterprise-B supposed to be involved in the Tomed Incident, or am I actually succumbing to non-canon?

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Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :

The Enterprise-B charted most of the Beta quadrant, and made first contact with lots of species. That's one account, anyways.

Posted by Lt. Tom on :

And from where would this account be? (I've seen "exploration of the BQ and first contact with 38 species" before, just in a decidedly non-canon source, so I'd like to know if there's something better to back it up.)

Incidentally, making first contact with a number of species would be pretty good support of the theory that the Ent-B was the flagship.

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

It's from the TNG tech manual, I believe.

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Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

As far as I know, the only canon info on the Ent B comes from Generations and the TNG Tech Man. However, the tech man shows the Ent. B as an early model Excelsior Class, so its canon status on this issue could be questioned...

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"A gathering of Angels appeared above my head. They sang to me this song of hope, and this is what they said..." -Styx

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Well, as far as most people are concerned, the TM doesn't have canon status at all. However, it is usually viewed as a "right until proven wrong" source, and the only thing that's been proven wrong is that the E-B was an Ex-II.

And The statement about every E in the past hundred years being legendary may have been an exaggeration. Maybe the only things legendary ever done by the E-B and E-C were the death of Kirk and the fight at Narendra III, respectively. I still don't see any reason that SF should be expected to have been concerned w/ having an E in service at all times.

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Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

quote:
The Ent-C engaged 4 Romulan Warbirds that were attacking the klingon outpost at narrada III , even though the Ent-C was outnumbered she did destroy some Birds before she herself was downed , the Klingons which werent getting along with the Fed at the time viewed the Ent-C's actions as most Honorble and the Klingons signed a second peace treaty with the Fed .

Except only the KLINGONS and the ROMULANS knew what happened. It sure took the crews of both the alternate-Enterprise-D and the real Enterprise-D by surprise in Yesterday's Enterprise and Redemption II, I do believe.

The Enterprise-C could hardly be famous for something no one knew she did. I'm sure that, until Sela's revelation, Starfleet Command considered the Enterprise-C "lost in service -- causes unknown."

Actually, perhaps that's the reason there was a gap. They may have been holding out hope that the Enterprise-C would re-emerge from wherever it had been. There must've been theories banted about -- right? I think Starfleet had some rumors on Enterprise-C crew showing up on Romulus, so perhaps they thought the ship had been captured by the Romulans, or accidently thrown into Romulan space. Who knows? Maybe Starfleet honestly believed that the Enterprise-C was docked in a Romulan facility somewhere, and they were holding out hope they could somehow rescue her.

Posted by Mikey T (Member # 144) on :

If Starfleet believed that the Enterprise-C was captured by the Romulans, then why have the Enterprise-D come out at all? This would mean that Starfleet eventually gave up on the -C after several years, much like what happend to USS Voyager, or that Starfleet decided to let this little incident go.

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Posted by Austin Powers (Member # 250) on :

Why shouldn't Starfleet have known about the Narendra III incident?

Do you think the Klingons didn't tell them WHY they were suddenly in the mood to sign a peace treaty? They wouldn't have done this out of nothing, would they?

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Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

They could have. After all, they had spoken peace back in Khitomer, but apparently had not followed up with appropriate action immediately. Perhaps there had been a gradual increase in trust, and the results of the battle simply gave Klingons the final excuse to approve of formal peace.

It's not as if this peace was anything really radical, though. Klingons apparently continued to raid Federation territory till the early 2360s, as per "Aquiel". It only looked radical in comparison with the all-out war that erupted when the Klingons thought they had evidence of Starfleet cowardice and unwillingness to help the Klingon colonists in distress.

It could also be that some in Starfleet did know what the E-C had done, but the incident could not be made public because the Romulans were acting aggressively and had to be kept calm. But this goes against the idea that there was no contact between the UFP and the RSE between 2311 and 2364.

Not that I'd believe in absolute isolation. Spies probably were still sending information in both directions, but a general decrease in commerce and other interaction might have forced many of them to go to "sleeper mode". Individual starships may have met, and the incidents kept secret (even from the more blue-eyed in Starfleet). But if there was no contact, then there wouldn't have been a major political pressure to keep significant events secret, either.

No, I'd think the Klingons did keep the incident secret. Perhaps they had internal reasons to do so - the son of a major Council Member might have been disgraced because he was supposed to care for that colony, for example. They nevertheless considered the deed a further sign of Federation worthiness and, adding that to the points scored earlier, decided to move forward with closer ties.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Picard certainly seemed surprised. He made a comment like, "there were RUMORS of surivors on Romulus..." so Starfleet Command may have speculated that the E-C got into a tangle with some Romulans and lost, but if Picard's reaction was any indication, Starfleet didn't have a clue what happened to the ship.

They probably eventually declared the ship destroyed. For one thing, this would help bring closure to the families' of the Enterprise-C's crew.

As for the Klingon and Federation relationship, it's not as cozy as it might look. Look at Captain Kartenga's actions aboard the Pagh -- he was ready to destroy the Enterprise, treaty or no treaty. And as Timo mentioned, Aquiel.

As for why the Klingons kept the incident at Narendra III secret ... who knows? Maybe they felt that by informing Starfleet, the vulnerabilities of their colonies would become widly known. The Khitomer attack happened about that time, so the Romulans were going at the Klingons pretty hard about that time. Perhaps the Klingons didn't want the Federation declaring War on the Romulan Empire and taking their glory from them ... ?

As for no contact with the Romulans, I don't think that's precise. I think "direct" contact might be a better statement. Admiral Jarok's raids took place thirty years prior to The Defector (I think) and killed many thousands of Federation citizens -- that's contact. Plus all the Romulan activity on the Klingon border, they certainly haven't been in hibernation as The Neutral Zone hinted at. Also, in Angel One, the Enterprise was ordered to the Neutral Zone in response to Romulan activity.

Posted by 8472 on :

Enterprise C
The ship could have launched escape pods and as they flew away. A Romulan warbird swoops in and beams aboard the pods. The ship then returns to Romulas at maximum warp. The ship arrives there 7 days later.
Yar among others is beamed down and is gradually seduced by a Romulan minister who also works for the Tal Shiar. She becomes pregant and later gives birth to Sela but discovers that her husband is working for the Tal Shiar. She decides to leave Romulas and head for Federation Space. She is killed in the attempt.
Meanwhile the Klingon colony's records show that the Enterprise C was destroyed with all hands and that a few warbirds captured the escape pods and were heading towards Romulas. Starfleet declares the ship lost with all hands and gives the approval for construction of the Enterprise D.

Posted by 8472 on :

Sela was taken by the minister mother to Remus to be raised. the reason Yar left was because she was going to be forced to become a member of the Tal Shiar and her daughter was taken away from her and was inacessible.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Picard seemed rather surprised that the Romulans had been involved at all. However the Enterprise-C survivors got to Romulus, the Klingons weren't forthcoming with that information.

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

*casually reads 8472's posts*

Interesting. *thinks*

Wait a minute! Darkstar?!

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Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

What? Main screen turn on!

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Posted by DARKSTAR on :

I am not 8472. I don't know him and hate him for being so matter of fact!

Posted by DARKSTAR on :

I'm back!!

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

Well, Vogon, I was thinking the same thing...

Hey, there! It's Darkstar. This place is addictive, isn't it. I think they're sending subliminal messages through our monitors personally...

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But, of all, the most reckless, or so I am told,
Was Abdulah Boul Boul Ameer."
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Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

I was going to say, "sounds like Darkstar, don't it"? But I decided against that.

WB Dark.

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

WB hmmmm, anyone seen WB lately!?! Werner Brutenik SP?

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Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

His homepage is the Steps offical web page? Hmm. I think that says it all. It was Darkie, he was definitely a closet fan of the band. 8)

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Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :

I would have never guessed 8472 being DarkStar. Alot of people write like that anyway.

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Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

But not many wrighta lika meea, thy flesh turnipped!!!!!!!! (01:04 +mucho-alcoholllllllll Boythis'llsoundniceinthemorning

Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :

In no particular order:

We have no real information on the E-B after Generations, except for the incredibly vague account given in the TNG TM. I personally like to think she was involved at the Tomed Incident, but there's nothing to support this that I know of.

The E-C would probably have been declared "lost, presumed destroyed" after the Narendra III battle, with the rumours of survivors only coming to light years later.

According to the TNG TM, the Galaxy Class Development Project was established in 2343 -- the year BEFORE the E-C was lost. There's plenty of time between Narendra III and the beginning of construcion on the Enterprise-D to allow for Starfleet deciding one of the Block-I Galaxys should be the next Enterprise.

And the captain of the Pagh was Kargan.

--Jonah

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Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :

Yeah, I could peg Darkstar/8472 as a Steps fan.

FAYE GETS TEH HOTT BUTTSEXX0R FORM TEH ME!1!!!!

She is somewhat attractive. For a commercial, industry-manufactured Label mouthpiece, of course. He could be into Lee, as well. (Not the member, but both are quite possible.)

(Before anyone asks, I took a look at the stepsofficialsitesothatyoumayjabapinintoyoureardrum.com site. I haven't actually heard this "band" before. I assume they're English? Look, Monty Python is good, but we suffer another SClub, or Spice Girls, I swear on queen and country...

Fuck you fucking England!

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[This message has been edited by Ultra Magnus (edited April 06, 2001).]

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Monty Python? That's the best you could've come up wit? Yeah, forget Led Z, Def Leppard, Black Sabbath, Animals, or Beatles for that matter!!!

Do I have to say it?

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Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

Steps are a sorta-Spice Girls. 3 girls, vaguely attractive, two blokes, no opinion (I defer to Ultra Magnus' exquisite taste in such matters). . . basically performing inoffensive pop ditties. Best thing they did was a cover of the Bee Gees' "Tragedy." I have it on MP3, for my sins. . .

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- James Lileks, 09/04/2001

Posted by Gaseous Anomaly (Member # 114) on :

For your sins...

I think that's going to be the least of your worries, Mr. Poet.

*rises from chair*

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Nimrod: You skipped Pink Floyd? Pfft... *shakes head and walks away*

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Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Of course Pink Floyd. You want me to get the whole list?

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Don't kill me, I'm charming!

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

It depends on whether the list gets better than Def Leppard.

Which isn't hard.

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Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

They're not my favourite, just a famous name. Now go, your late for your appointment.

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Posted by Treknophyle (Member # 509) on :

Welcome back Darkstar!

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Faster than light - no left or right.

Posted by Daniel (Member # 453) on :

Hmm. Depending on whether he's coming or going, I suggest you revise your statement Treknophyle. Seeing that it seems you haven't, I suggest you read the thread he made under the "General Discussion" forum. It happens to be closed. Gee, I wonder why? Go and find out.

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Ow, that hurt...

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Posted by Daniel (Member # 453) on :

Beg pardon?

Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :

Does "Fuck You to Fucking hell flare!" ring a bell anyone?

If we could get beack on the subject instead of DarkStar...

In some fan fics, some Sovereign was renamed Enterprise after the E-D was destroyed. This makes sense as not every single top class should have the name Enterprise in it. If suddenly Starfleet came out the 'Matrix' class, they're not going to decommision the E-E and have a E-F
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[This message has been edited by Matrix (edited April 11, 2001).]

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

YES! Subject = Good

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