Flare Sci-Fi Forums: Another Miranda variant

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Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

I thought I'd better turn THIS discussion into a new thread.

Short version:
There appearantly is a new refit in the Miranda family. This is probably mentioned before, but here it is nonetheless:

LOOK! FOUR impulse engines!
The pictures are from 'Sacrifice of Angels'.

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"Do you want to be President?"
"Yes."
"Put you hand on the book and say 'I do'."
"I do."
"Good, done. Let's eat!"

- G'kar and Sheridan, Babylon 5.

[This message has been edited by Altair (edited June 26, 2000).]

Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :

Blast me eyes. All I can see is a rather blurry type I Miranda.

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Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

There are two extra impulse engines in the back of the torpedo launchers. They are even bigger than the original two engines found on the type I Miranda.

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"Do you want to be President?"
"Yes."
"Put you hand on the book and say 'I do'."
"I do."
"Good, done. Let's eat!"

- G'kar and Sheridan, Babylon 5.

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

Ehhhh, without seeing the ep again, I couldn't really say. With the quality of the photos, it could just be the glow from the aft torp launchers.

Having impulse engines on the roll bar would be a physically stupid thing to do. Regardless of weightlessness, the impulse engines still have to overcome the inertia of the ship to get it moving. So, if there were imp. engines on that rollbar, the connections where the bar meets the main hull would essentially have to bear the mass and inertia of the entire ship as it accelerated (if the other engines weren't being used.) Not very smart.

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Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

If it is the torpedo's then why only the back end. And why only on the Miranda class?

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"Do you want to be President?"
"Yes."
"Put you hand on the book and say 'I do'."
"I do."
"Good, done. Let's eat!"

- G'kar and Sheridan, Babylon 5.

Posted by Trip Tucker (Member # 297) on :

Methinks it could just be some random refit Starfleet's done. They could've found a way to cram impulse engines AND forward torpedo launchers into the roll bar.
Just think of it as "Type 1 with more impulse engines"

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Posted by Delta Vega (Member # 283) on :

Possibly used to chase down ships of the Dominion.

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Posted by D-S on :

Isn't there a variant with a navigational deflector on the roll bar or is that something I've seen of the ST creator CD thing?

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

The torpedo assembly doesn't look quite large enough to contain the launcher, its magazine, and an impulse engine. I suppose it could be using a much smaller engine, but if these smaller engines exist, why not retrofit the ships' main impulse engines to this new smaller design?

Or, along a different line, is the acceleration boost from another engine worth giving up aft torpedo coverage?

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Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

To be faster or to be able to fire backwards. Good question!

On another note: The Galaxy Class ships in 'Sacrifice of Angels' are running on three impulse engines instead of just one. So it seems that they were also going for extra speed on the Galaxy's.

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"Do you want to be President?"
"Yes."
"Put you hand on the book and say 'I do'."
"I do."
"Good, done. Let's eat!"

- G'kar and Sheridan, Babylon 5.

[This message has been edited by Altair (edited June 27, 2000).]

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

It might be that impulse maneuverability was the biggest weak point of Federation ships early in the war (c.f. the Odyssey against the three fighterlike Jem'Hadar ships). While modern medium ships had sufficient maneuverability, modern heavyweights needed more oomph so Galaxies began using all three engines. (I also speculate Akiras used to fly with two engines previously, and activated the boom engines only when Galaxies began using the saucer engines...)

Perhaps the older de-mothballed Mirandas were hopelessly impulse-deficient, so it was either give them more impulse capability or not reactivate them at all. So Starfleet decided to install the extra impulse engines and get a hundred semi-battleworthy ships, rather than spend the bucks on improving the more modern ships and have to make do with a hundred ships less.

It's not impossible IMHO to have impulse engines up there. There's already antimatter feed for the torps and conduitry for the phasers, so why not fuel leads as well? And the torp launchers must be very compact if the pod originally had four. And none of the blueprints I have seen have depicted the Constitution or Miranda impulse assemblies as larger than the externally distinguishable "engine block" including the nozzles and the blue crystal.

As for the pylons not being capable of taking the loads... The warp nacelle pylons of a Constitution are just as (if not more) spindly, and have to take major loads as well since nacelles supposedly make up a major portion of the ship mass.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Constellation of One (Member # 332) on :

Weird. I'd sure like to see the rest of that clip to confirm that there isn't any impulse glow from the rear of the primary hull. Having said that, it looks to me as if there isn't any based upon what's being shown. Do you think the special effects guys were tired when they made this ep, or was this (assuming the rollbar glow is an impulse engine) an intentional modification?

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Posted by Constellation of One (Member # 332) on :

Never mind, I can see the glow from the usual impulse vent locations. Temporary brain lock.

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Posted by nx001a (Member # 291) on :

This miranda variant does the ship have a name (ie is it visible)? Most likely to give the miranda class a bit more speed when attacking the maneverable dominion ships.

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Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

The Seatak and the Majestic have the same impulse engine upgrade!!

In fact: All Miranda's of which the rear was visible had 4 impulse engines.

------------------
"Do you want to be President?"
"Yes."
"Put you hand on the book and say 'I do'."
"I do."
"Good, done. Let's eat!"

- G'kar and Sheridan, Babylon 5.

Posted by Mikey T (Member # 144) on :

Ah...couldn't this be another mistake by the special effects people?

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Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

Very good change. They also introduced the second CGI Jem'Hadar battle cruiser in this episode. Also the full version of the new CGI Galaxy Class made it's debute here (it was used in earlier episodes of the same season, but the hull coloring wasn't right. It was purple on some regions). It wouldn't surprise my that several other CGI meshes were also new ones.

------------------
"Do you want to be President?"
"Yes."
"Put you hand on the book and say 'I do'."
"I do."
"Good, done. Let's eat!"

- G'kar and Sheridan, Babylon 5.

Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :

Maybe these red lights are activated photon torpedo tubes, like the tube of the Kronos One in ST6.

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Posted by Yakaspat The Trekker (Member # 355) on :

Actually, I am *certain* it actually *is* impulse engine glow we see here. I remember watching this onscreen, and I said aloud to my other Trekker buddies, "hey, look at the Miranda's engines"...since we had this on tape, we rewinded and watched it over and over. Sure enough, the Miranda's in that seen, about three of them if I recall correctly, have modified impulse engines. So, I think I am pretty certain those are not torpedoes shooting and it isn't a reflection. I'll go with Timo on them being modified to catch up with Dommie ships.

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Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

I agree on that theory, and I also mentioned the triple Galaxy engines as being the same theory.

Now here is an addition:
Could the reason for the lack of Ambassador and Nebula (at least until the end) be that they aren't fast enough at impulse? Fact is that they are among the largest and therefore heaviest ships in Starfleet.

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"Do you want to be President?"
"Yes."
"Put you hand on the book and say 'I do'."
"I do."
"Good, done. Let's eat!"

- G'kar and Sheridan, Babylon 5.

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

And the poor Nebulas also seem to lack impulse engines altogether! Perhaps that's what kept them grounded.

The original models had these teeny weeny grilles just below the saucer rim, at the places where a Galaxy would have had big and prominent saucer-edge nozzles. They never glowed red or anything AFAIK.

But the CGI model seems to omit even these. And while the rest of the saucer suddenly has all the Galaxy features, windows and lifepods, it doesn't gain Galaxy-style impulse nozzles.

It hardly seems possible that the Nebula would be designed for warp-only operations. But if it were, it would be quite incapable of combat...

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

IIRC the Nebula seen in the DS9 pilot had a Galaxy type single impulse engine.

------------------
"Do you want to be President?"
"Yes."
"Put you hand on the book and say 'I do'."
"I do."
"Good, done. Let's eat!"

- G'kar and Sheridan, Babylon 5.

[This message has been edited by Altair (edited June 29, 2000).]

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Went and checked "Emissary pt I". I can't see any engine glow on the Bellerophon at all, whereas the red glow from the Ambassador ship beside her (supposedly the Yamagochi)is clearly visible.

And the Bellerophon model doesn't have the twin saucer-rim nozzles of a Galaxy, either (but I can't tell whether the under-rim grilles are there or not).

The Prometheus from "Second Sight" is a different matter. I'm only 98% sure she didn't have impulse glow, so I'll go and check when I can. I think she was identical to the Bellerophon, though. And the Farragut from "Generations" didn't have impulse glow, and did have the small grilles.

Timo Saloniemi

* PS. Boy, the Bellerophon and the Yamagochi moved FAST at impulse. So much for the theory that they were too clumsy against the Dominion without impulse boosting. I guess DS9 battles were all filmed at slow motion or something.