While updating my site I decided to try to make some order to the whole Peregrine-class issue.
Please Click here and tell me if I got it right. Thanks.
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First of all, I'll remind everyone that linking the name "Peregrine" and the Attack Fighter/Maquis ship design is still speculative. It may we widely accepted here and by Sternbach, but its by no means undisputed.
The Attack Fighters from SofA et al were admittedly not clearly scaleable during most of the Fleet scenes, but Frank can confirm they were probably in the 30ish meter range, which matches up with the Maquis ships from "The Maquis," which were around 35m based on cockpit size. A ship this size, incidentally, would not fit through the doors to the Akira's supposed "fighter bay."
(IMHO Jaeger is about as credible a crafter of the Trek canon as any 3D modeler online)
As for the other Maquis raider design, Hobbes, I'm still a bit picky about that 60m length. The scaling was indeed notorious from shot to shot in Caretaker, ranging from pretty small next to the Galor at the start to 100m+. If you scale off the cockpit windows (the cockpit was a runabout redress), you get a length of 85m, which fits a three deck layout nicely and is big enough to fit the fifty or so Maquis onboard, without making too many VFX shots look like utter crap.
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"...I was just up in Canada, Toronto actually. You know, they really hate you guys [Americans] up there? The funny thing is, they think you hate them back, when in fact, you just couldn't be bothered to care. Now in Ireland, it's a different story. At least we had the common decency to wait until the English invaded before we started hating them. I guess the Canadians are hating you in advance..."
-Irish Comic Ed Byrne on Canada-US relations
[This message has been edited by The_Tom (edited August 13, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by The_Tom (edited August 13, 2000).]
I can understand Bernd's and others' arguments that the two craft are actually portrayed as being roughly similar in size and should be taken as such to avoid a scaling paradox - but the *intention* of the VFX folks clearly was to show a size difference, and the cockpit interiors deserve to be considered here, too.
As for which ship is the Peregrine, I think a "courier" has to be capable of actually carrying passengers or mail bags or stuff like that. The tactical fighters are a wee bit too compact and warlike for that, while the roomier, shuttlelike interiors of the smaller Maquis ship (the one from "Preemptive Strike") suggest a passenger capability. This ship is my favorite for Peregrine class.
The bigger Maquis ship (from "Caretaker") shouldn't be a Peregrine, since apparently the real Peregrine could not outrun a runabout, and could be flown by a single person without Odo or Kira expressing amazement or even curiosity (and we are not speaking of a suicide run here, but actual long-term flying). Both of these attributes ill fit the "Caretaker" ship, which seemed to have a separate engine room (making single-pilot operations very dubious) and could arguably give a race to a Galor, or a Defiant.
Timo Saloniemi
Is it just me, or is an interceptor that travels slower than warp 5 as useless as Oberth-class battleship?
Indeed, if the Peregrine was originally a courier, a modified version with additional weaponry would logically make an excellent interceptor. If the DS9 writers had just taken a page from Voyager's book, and let TECH interfere with TECH which helped TECH happen, the runabout might have caught the interceptor in another manner and all would be ducky 
Oh, and Timo, the exact same model that was called a "courier" in The Maquis appeared in SofA (well, it was CGI in the latter, but I digress). Indeed if we squeeze this ship as close to the 40m mark as we can, there might be room for a second deck below the cockpit, 747 style, which could contain bunks and storage and stuff. That's my preferred theory.
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"...I was just up in Canada, Toronto actually. You know, they really hate you guys [Americans] up there? The funny thing is, they think you hate them back, when in fact, you just couldn't be bothered to care. Now in Ireland, it's a different story. At least we had the common decency to wait until the English invaded before we started hating them. I guess the Canadians are hating you in advance..."
-Irish Comic Ed Byrne on Canada-US relations
The image in the lower right shows the raider with a familiar shuttle cockpit! Provided this is the final version as used in "Preemptive Strike", the ship would be only 30m long. I'm pondering whether there might be really two sizes...
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"Species 5618, human. Warp-capable, origin grid 325, physiology inefficient, below average cranium capacity, minimum redundant systems, limited regenerative abilities."
Ex Astris Scientia
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"Neil says hi by the way" - Tear In Your Hand, Tori Amos
...and why haven't you shared this image beforehand...??
:-D
I wonder if that was what they filmed for Ro's ship, or if it's just a study model... Hmm...
If it IS what they filmed, however rough it may appear, then I'd be happy! It has different details, one can see. That means a scaling problem isn't so bad...
BTW - I'm posting this from a dial-up connection at work... Fighter = fighter, no class name, just a type number. ------------------ Get ready for a dual-ship series dealing with multiple timelines.... *grins* ------------------ Of interest is that Steve's picture clearly shows that the Ro wing roots lack the strakes seen in the Chakotay wings, just like in Bernd's ST Mechanics picture - but Steve's picture also shows both ships as having the small "impulse engine" lumps outboard of the tall vertical fins astern, while Bernd's picture of the Ro ship has these lumps missing. Perhaps they were added later in the process? Oh, and BTW, Tom, the ships in "The Maquis" weren't called anything at all, while the unseen ship in "Heart of Stone" that tried to outrun the runabout but couldn't was identified as "Peregrine class courier, modified". "The Maquis" also features an off-screen ship that is only monitored as a Starfleet symbol on a computer monitor when Sisko and Dukat go scouting - this ship is called either an auxiliary courier or an auxiliary carrier, difficult to say which. Timo Saloniemi [This message has been edited by Timo (edited August 15, 2000).] [This message has been edited by Timo (edited August 15, 2000).]
*wonders if the new DS9 Companion might shed any light on the matter* Considering that Bernd's pic is from Mechanics, I imagine its not a fan-built model. So I'm now wondering if it's actually the final version or a pic of the model under construction. If the final and shot version was indeed that fugly, it raises doubts that Chakotay's ship was indeed a rebuild of it. I know for a fact the Ro-mobile can't have been bashed from the Revellogram kit because it wasn't released until about a year after Preemptive Strike aired. But what about it being a study model for Chakotay's ship? ------------------ [This message has been edited by The_Tom (edited August 15, 2000).]
Jason: Wait until I post *all my scans* ------------------ So Bernd, do you agree that the differences between Ro's and Chakotay's ship now make void the scaling problem? They may come from the same manufacturer, but the details are certainly different enough to allow for different sizes. Incidentally, the Ro ship has those four identical "clamps" that would seem to be weapon emitters, two at the wingtips and two closer to the cockpit, ahead of the engine cowlings. The Chakotay ship has the wingtip ones obscured by the new weapon assemblies, assemblies that seem similar to its gunlike under-cockpit protrusion. Can you tell where weapons fire actually erupted from in each design? I have "Caretaker" on tape, but not "Preemptive Strike" nor "For the Uniform". And don't these "clamps" look quite a bit like the main guns of a Ferengi marauder...? Timo Saloniemi
------------------ [This message has been edited by The_Tom (edited August 15, 2000).]
http://frankg.dgne.com/utopics/per1.jpg ------------------ No pictures here of the Ro ship firing its guns, it appears. So perhaps these "clamps" really have nothing to do with weaponry. They might be the infamous buzzard collectors for what we know, grabbing hapless space avians so that they don't end up as smears in the windshield. But if these aren't guns, where would you put the guns in the Ro ship then? And what is the thingamabob at the extreme bow, a nav deflector or a torp tube? Anybody have the Chakotay ship Monogram/ERTL model for a close view or possibly even an explanation in the assembly instructions? Timo Saloniemi
------------------ ------------------ �on Flux, "Thanatophobia" ------------------ ------------------ (translation from SFCR-ese: Bajoran raiders, Ro's ship and Attack Fighters) ------------------ ------------------
TSN sure knows how to pick quality sigs. I think the fleet in "Preemptive Strike" might contain a fourth craft in addition to "B, C1 and D". The mystery ship on top left just *might* be the sub-impulse raider flown by Kira and Dax in "The Siege". However, I don't think I ever spotted a side view of it in "PS", and I don't have a tape for verification. The impulse-capable interceptors from "The Siege" have apparently been greatly downscaled for the purposes of "PS" (and possibly the ship in "Through the Looking Glass" was also downscaled, since the interiors were much more cramped than in "Shadows and Symbols"). And I assume all the Maquis ships also had warp capability since they could escape the E-D, including the impulse interceptor and the possible sub-impulse raider. So perhaps there exist warp-modified vessels that look like these two craft but are smaller (the interceptor) or larger (the raider)? Timo Saloniemi
------------------ [This message has been edited by pIn'a' Sov (edited August 17, 2000).]
That red glow certainly is odd, but shape-wise Number 1 is a D. And yeah, I think that's a sixth ship in the extreme left all right, which looks a lot like the centre ship. ------------------ [This message has been edited by The_Tom (edited August 17, 2000).]
To my untrained eye, the apparent launcher on Chakotay's ship looks a lot like the front of the refit Constitution's launcher. If only my scanner worked... ------------------
What are the ships with the 'round top' that are at the top left, top right and center? ------------------
------------------ [This message has been edited by pIn'a' Sov (edited August 19, 2000).]
------------------ Does anyone have a grab of the 'Bajoran ship' from "Parallels"? It was so powerful it could do serious damage to a Galaxy Class starship! This was in the timeline where instead of the Cardassians investigating the Argus Array it was the Bajorans! Andrew ------------------ ------------------ Andrew ------------------ ------------------ (ducking and running) ------------------
I think I have a closer pic of that red 'bubble' maquis ship... let me have a look. Andrew ------------------
So far, what seems to make sense is:
Ro's ship = Peregrine Class.
Chakotay's ship = possible Antares, or something else entirely, depending...
~ Jason :-)
STAR TREK: BEYOND - http://stbeyond.homestead.com
Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :
Jason: Just had to go about bragging your cable modem, eh? I use dial-up all the time 
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-Charles Capps, August 13, 2000
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
The somewhat low detail on Ro's ship suggests to me that this could be a later reproduction, something a fan built out of the Monogram or ERTL kit of Chakotay's ship. But I thought it was common knowledge that Ro's ship in "Preemptive Strike" had this different cockpit. It matches the "alien shuttle" set used for the interiors pretty well, and could even provide an absolute scaling reference. Steve Pugh has pics of both models here (scroll down to see first Ro's, then Chakotay's version - the Ro ship pic seems to be a direct screencap).
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
Hmmm.. I could have sworn it was "Interceptor" in Heart of Stone. *shrugs* And I'm pretty sure the two ships in "The Maquis" were intended to be the couriers. Who's got that CD-ROM with the scripts again?
"...I was just up in Canada, Toronto actually. You know, they really hate you guys [Americans] up there? The funny thing is, they think you hate them back, when in fact, you just couldn't be bothered to care. Now in Ireland, it's a different story. At least we had the common decency to wait until the English invaded before we started hating them. I guess the Canadians are hating you in advance..."
-Irish Comic Ed Byrne on Canada-US relations
Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
The model on Steve's screencap almost definitely has the alien shuttle cockpit too, and seems to be lacking the same details as the ST Mechanics image on the lower right. I think the very same model was modified to represent a larger ship, and this was when the additional details were added.
"Species 5618, human. Warp-capable, origin grid 325, physiology inefficient, below average cranium capacity, minimum redundant systems, limited regenerative abilities."
Ex Astris Scientia
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Well, WE ARE WAITING! So what's costing? Can't you post any faster, huh? Huh? C'mon, keep the scanner hot! :-P
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
I know that in "For the Uniform" the fire came from the extreme wingtips, so probably the BoP-like guns were responsible. The clamps (which do bear a passing resemblance to the Marauder weapons, yes) might not even be weapons... The fact that the ones on Chakotay's ship would be 2.5 times bigger than the ones on Ro's might suggest they're something easily built bigger or smaller. Frank's got a pile of Preemptive Strike screencaps buried in those folders of his (where directory listings are denied 
) so we might get a bit more light shed on the matter later...
"...I was just up in Canada, Toronto actually. You know, they really hate you guys [Americans] up there? The funny thing is, they think you hate them back, when in fact, you just couldn't be bothered to care. Now in Ireland, it's a different story. At least we had the common decency to wait until the English invaded before we started hating them. I guess the Canadians are hating you in advance..."
-Irish Comic Ed Byrne on Canada-US relations
Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :
You just need to ask.
http://frankg.dgne.com/utopics/per2.jpg
http://frankg.dgne.com/utopics/per3.jpg
http://frankg.dgne.com/utopics/per4.jpg
http://frankg.dgne.com/utopics/per5.jpg
http://frankg.dgne.com/utopics/per6.jpg
http://frankg.dgne.com/utopics/per7.jpg
http://frankg.dgne.com/utopics/per8.jpg
http://frankg.dgne.com/utopics/per9.jpg
http://frankg.dgne.com/utopics/per10.jpg
http://frankg.dgne.com/misc/per11.jpg
http://frankg.dgne.com/misc/per12.jpg
Frank's Home Page
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Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Wow. 
Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
The two thingies next to the cockpitt is probably the bussard collectors. I have recently saw this episode and I think I remember these ships firing from the two wings things.
Predict the unpredictable, but how do you unpredict the unpredictable?
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
It would seem illogical to build a ship only capable of aft-firing torpedoes.
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How dare you, Dangerboy?
I dare you, dare you, Dangerboy...
Posted by Starship Freak (Member # 293) on :
Since I haven�t seen the episode "preemptive strike", I have a question regarding this screencap of Frank�s: http://frankg.dgne.com/utopics/per3.jpg
How many types of ships are we seeing? I made this pic: http://hem.passagen.se/pinasov/maquisfleet.jpg
Any thoughts?
Question: anyone got any better and bigger pics of this fleet?
"The Starships of the Federation are the physical, tangible manifestations of Humanity�s stubborn insistence that life does indeed mean something."
Spock to Leonard McCoy in "Final Frontier"
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
I've got a new sig out of this... :-)
"They might be the infamous buzzard collectors for what we know, grabbing hapless space avians so that they don't end up as smears in the windshield."
-Timo Saloniemi, 16-Aug-2000
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
The Maquis fleet in "Preemptive Strike" consisisted of type B, C1 and D raidercraft.
"...I was just up in Canada, Toronto actually. You know, they really hate you guys [Americans] up there? The funny thing is, they think you hate them back, when in fact, you just couldn't be bothered to care. Now in Ireland, it's a different story. At least we had the common decency to wait until the English invaded before we started hating them. I guess the Canadians are hating you in advance..."
-Irish Comic Ed Byrne on Canada-US relations
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I've got the model and, at least on Chakotay's ship, it's a torpedo launcher.
Come on darkness
Lay your body down on us
We've been calling you for so long now
We're weary of your name
--
Camper Van Beethoven
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Pull your body for a moment from your soul.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Thanks, Sol! Is it a ribbed muzzle similar to the two aft ones, or a different design?
Posted by Starship Freak (Member # 293) on :
I�m curious as to numbers 1 and 4. Number 1 has a red glow in two places upfront, which means it has to be a new variant, and not attack fighters, bajoran ship, or Ro�s. If this is the sub-impulse variant Timo mentioned or not is the question, but it certainly is a new variant. Number 4 has a rounded cockpit, which also doesn�t fit in with the above mentioned 3, what ship is this?
"The Starships of the Federation are the physical, tangible manifestations of Humanity�s stubborn insistence that life does indeed mean something."
Spock to Leonard McCoy in "Final Frontier"
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
Ribbed or not?
"...I was just up in Canada, Toronto actually. You know, they really hate you guys [Americans] up there? The funny thing is, they think you hate them back, when in fact, you just couldn't be bothered to care. Now in Ireland, it's a different story. At least we had the common decency to wait until the English invaded before we started hating them. I guess the Canadians are hating you in advance..."
-Irish Comic Ed Byrne on Canada-US relations
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I'm not quite sure what you mean, Timo.
Come on darkness
Lay your body down on us
We've been calling you for so long now
We're weary of your name
--
Camper Van Beethoven
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Pull your body for a moment from your soul.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
in this pic: http://frankg.dgne.com/utopics/per3.jpg
"Neil says hi by the way" - Tear In Your Hand, Tori Amos
Posted by Starship Freak (Member # 293) on :
AndrewR: Yes, that�s what I wanted to know. That�s my "ship number 4", in my reply higher up in this thread. In Frank�s pic one can also see the weird red glow in front of what appears to be an attack fighter. These must be new variants.
Anyone got any bigger pics of that fleet, better then mine?
"The Starships of the Federation are the physical, tangible manifestations of Humanity�s stubborn insistence that life does indeed mean something."
Spock to Leonard McCoy in "Final Frontier"
Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :
Those are the ships that also showed up in "The Siege" (DS9) as a Bajoran sub-impluse fighter.
Frank's Home Page
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Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Does that mean that the Bajoran ships we see might not actually Bajoran ships? Could they just be 'bought' ships...
"I threw bitter tears at the ocean
But all that came back was the tide..." 'I Will Not Forget You' Sarah McLachlan
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
The Bajoran ship from Parallels was never seen.
Teddy Roosevelt: "Speak softly and carry a big stick."
Yosemite Sam: "Well, I speak loudly and I carry a bigger stick...and I use it too!"
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Are you sure!?! I'm sure we saw a breif shot of it. I think it was the Bajoran 'glider' again. It had reddish 'glows' on the 'tips' of the wings...
"I threw bitter tears at the ocean
But all that came back was the tide..." 'I Will Not Forget You' Sarah McLachlan
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
Nope. Wasn't seen, Andrew.
"...I was just up in Canada, Toronto actually. You know, they really hate you guys [Americans] up there? The funny thing is, they think you hate them back, when in fact, you just couldn't be bothered to care. Now in Ireland, it's a different story. At least we had the common decency to wait until the English invaded before we started hating them. I guess the Canadians are hating you in advance..."
-Irish Comic Ed Byrne on Canada-US relations
Posted by spyone on :
Has anyone else noticed how, especially from a distance and especially from the front, these ships resemble Cylon Raiders?
You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
OK, I guess we didn't... I wonder what I was thinking of!?!
"I threw bitter tears at the ocean
But all that came back was the tide..." 'I Will Not Forget You' Sarah McLachlan
