...or at least highly improbable.
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Bart: "Hey, Dad, I'll trade you this delicious doorstop for that crummy old danish."
Homer: "Done and done...D'oh!"
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"The kingdom of God is inside you, and all around you; not in a building of stone or wood. Split a piece of wood, and I will be there. Lift a stone, and you will find me."
-The Gospel of Jesus, Stigmata
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"Me, Grimlock, not 'nice dino'! Me, Grimlock, bash brains!"
-Grimlock, Transformers: The Movie
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"The kingdom of God is inside you, and all around you; not in a building of stone or wood. Split a piece of wood, and I will be there. Lift a stone, and you will find me."
-The Gospel of Jesus, Stigmata
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Bart: "Hey, Dad, I'll trade you this delicious doorstop for that crummy old danish."
Homer: "Done and done...D'oh!"
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Frank's Home Page
"Antagonist Class Badly-Armored Poorly-Equipped Crappy-Fire Support Tug. To search out new armor and batteries. Because, well, we don't have a warp-core. That is my flagship, BTW." - Antag
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"Me, Grimlock, not 'nice dino'! Me, Grimlock, bash brains!"
-Grimlock, Transformers: The Movie
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"The kingdom of God is inside you, and all around you; not in a building of stone or wood. Split a piece of wood, and I will be there. Lift a stone, and you will find me."
-The Gospel of Jesus, Stigmata
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"The things hollow--it goes on forever--and--oh my God!--it's full of stars!" -David Bowman's last transmission back to Earth, 2001: A Space Odyssey
On the Federation page, under Deneva class.
[This message has been edited by Dukhat (edited August 13, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Dukhat (edited August 13, 2000).]
Image courtesy of that site in Dukhat's post. :-)
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"Me, Grimlock, not 'nice dino'! Me, Grimlock, bash brains!"
-Grimlock, Transformers: The Movie
That could be anything from a Galaxy to an Excelsior to one of Masao's Furious-class ships.
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"Do you know how much YOU'RE worth??.....2.5 million Woolongs. THAT'S your bounty. I SAID you were small fry..." --Spike Spiegel
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"We have HTML and images in sigs disabled here. Don't try it. If you do, I'll shove the image up your ass, then ban you. Have a nice day. :)"
-Charles Capps, August 13, 2000
Well, for what it's worth:
http://asdb2.homestead.com/Deneva.html
That's the as-yet-unlinked-to-main-page Deneva Class page of the ASDB. (on my mirror)
Here's the completed side view:
You can see a bigger image if you click on that thumb at the page.
The only thing I can see that might not match the spaghetti stain of a screencap is that the ship looks "flatter" than the ASDB design. Honestly, I'd still rather go with ours; we've discussed the capabilities & this design seems to make the most sense...
Or, as an alternative, guys, I could whip up orthographic schematics of a glob of Play-doh - then we'd be faithful to canon...
~ Jason :-)
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STAR TREK: BEYOND - http://stbeyond.homestead.com
Get ready for a dual-ship series dealing with multiple timelines.... *grins*
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"The things hollow--it goes on forever--and--oh my God!--it's full of stars!" -David Bowman's last transmission back to Earth, 2001: A Space Odyssey
Hey, I went from junior member to member with this post. Cool.
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Bart: "Hey, Dad, I'll trade you this delicious doorstop for that crummy old danish."
Homer: "Done and done...D'oh!"
[This message has been edited by Dukhat (edited August 14, 2000).]
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"Me, Grimlock, not 'nice dino'! Me, Grimlock, bash brains!"
-Grimlock, Transformers: The Movie
The link is at the bottom of the page when you make a post. It's highlighted as UBB Code.
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Teddy Roosevelt: "Speak softly and carry a big stick."
Yosemite Sam: "Well, I speak loudly and I carry a bigger stick...and I use it too!"
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Bart: "Hey, Dad, I'll trade you this delicious doorstop for that crummy old danish."
Homer: "Done and done...D'oh!"
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Come on darkness
Lay your body down on us
We've been calling you for so long now
We're weary of your name
--
Camper Van Beethoven
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Pull your body for a moment from your soul.
-Lance
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TheTrekker's Officer's Bible: A Concise Review of the Starfleet
http://thetrekker.homestead.com
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Come on darkness
Lay your body down on us
We've been calling you for so long now
We're weary of your name
--
Camper Van Beethoven
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Pull your body for a moment from your soul.
quote:
It is absurd that anyone can pick out the slightest detail from that screen grab.
That's why I asked if anyone had a *larger* screencap.
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Bart: "Hey, Dad, I'll trade you this delicious doorstop for that crummy old danish."
Homer: "Done and done...D'oh!"
------------------
"Me, Grimlock, not 'nice dino'! Me, Grimlock, bash brains!"
-Grimlock, Transformers: The Movie
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"Species 5618, human. Warp-capable, origin grid 325, physiology inefficient, below average cranium capacity, minimum redundant systems, limited regenerative abilities."
Ex Astris Scientia
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"Neil says hi by the way" - Tear In Your Hand, Tori Amos
+When we first saw the Merchantman, it was indeed a freighter, piloted by a very small number of human-looking characters, which fits the facts of USS Arcos as well.
+Arcos NCC in the 6000 range would indicate TOS movie era, which is also where we meet the Merchantman.
+(Straw-grasping)The bridge is vaguely Starfleetish - the only place where aliens use such a dome structure is when they are lend-leasing the Merchantman.
+(Straw-grasping, part two) Deneva and Antares are both freighters named after a UFP star, and Antares looks "civilian", too. Other Starfleet ship classes are not named after stars, except for the unseen Rigel class which for all we know could have been another freighter.
-There is no solid evidence yet of Starfleet using ships that are not bright white aerodynamic hi-tech thoroughbreds. At least not unless we accept the Antares class Starfleet ship in the "Redemption" fleet as being the same as SS Xhosa (or alternatively Orta's ship from "Ensign Ro"). Then again, surely Starfleet must operate a sizeable fleet of humble supply ships, which would probably look similar to civilian freighters?
-Even so, the ship lacks recognizable Starfleet equipment like phaser turrets/strips or blue-glowing warp engines.
-The ship is seen in too many alien hands to make the export control authorities of the UFP look competent.
Perhaps the real Deneva class only roughly looks like the Merchantman, but from close up, we could observe the shining white paint finish, the Starfleet streamers and NCC pennants, and the phaser turrets, all of which separate the design from its civilian (and export-cleared) counterpart? Anybody care to draw a "militarized" Merchantman in Starfleet livery? Or a "militarized" SS Xhosa?
Timo Saloniemi
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"Me, Grimlock, not 'nice dino'! Me, Grimlock, bash brains!"
-Grimlock, Transformers: The Movie
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ALPHA CENTAURI
Human Class - Starfleet registry NCC-75715
Launched stardate 8311.23 - Parental Biology Yards
United Federation of Planets
"A dedication motto? What about it?" - Alpha Centauri
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takeoffs are optional; landings are mandatory
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"Me, Grimlock, not 'nice dino'! Me, Grimlock, bash brains!"
-Grimlock, Transformers: The Movie
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Frank's Home Page
"Antagonist Class Badly-Armored Poorly-Equipped Crappy-Fire Support Tug. To search out new armor and batteries. Because, well, we don't have a warp-core. That is my flagship, BTW." - Antag
The choice of the Merchantman as the design for the Deneva class Arcos isn't really a good idea...the Cardassians used the same design for one of their freighters! I doubt Starfleet ever shared ship designs with them (remember the Bok'Nor?)
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Bart: "Hey, Dad, I'll trade you this delicious doorstop for that crummy old danish."
Homer: "Done and done...D'oh!"
quote:
Were there only two crew members-a chief engineer and a captain?
Well, the Jenolan only had two crew members, and Scotty was actually more passenger than crew.
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Bart: "Hey, Dad, I'll trade you this delicious doorstop for that crummy old danish."
Homer: "Done and done...D'oh!"
------------------
"We have HTML and images in sigs disabled here. Don't try it. If you do, I'll shove the image up your ass, then ban you. Have a nice day. :)"
-Charles Capps, August 13, 2000
------------------
Teddy Roosevelt: "Speak softly and carry a big stick."
Yosemite Sam: "Well, I speak loudly and I carry a bigger stick...and I use it too!"
------------------
"Me, Grimlock, not 'nice dino'! Me, Grimlock, bash brains!"
-Grimlock, Transformers: The Movie
I put the SS in SS Xhosa just to separate it from the various USS ships, not to imply a Federation origin - but I do like to think that all those vaguely Xhosa-like ships from the Batris on are of a general design mostly used by the UFP, and purchased by others from UFP sources. Sometimes these others may sell the designs onwards to UFP enemies like Talarians, or then earlier allies later become enemies after a purchase. In any case, USS Hermes of Antares class in "Redemption" is a Xhosa-like freighter in my books, simply drafted in Starfleet use and painted accordingly.
And I think the USS for USS Arcos comes merely from the Encyclopedia, not from the episode. The LaSalle wasn't called a USS explicitly, either, if I remember correctly. But the NCC registries for the ships are rather well established and accepted even if noncanon, so I hesitate to consider these ships non-Starfleet.
Timo Saloniemi
The USS LaSalle is identified as a starship in "Reunion".
As for the Arcos, if the model is identified as being a Merchantman or Antares variant when visually identified on DVD, then this makes the Arcos non-Starfleet. Anyway, until that date, the Arcos is a Federation freighter whose shape and affiation in the canonical literature is unknown.
As I study Star Trek in detail on this forum and on DVD, I come to realize that the task that Mr. Okuda had with the encyclopedia was ambitious and couldn't be achieved for a number of the entries had to reconcile all the known facts of a ship, person, planet, or historical events. I believe that the store of knowledge is growing beyond the capacity of a single volume reference. This will be certainly true with the next film and series.
There are three opinions developing over the quality of the encyclopedia. The first opinion is that the encyclopedia is accurate, comprehensive, and is a great reference for Star Trek. Second opinion is that the encylopedia has some errors, is partially comprehensive, and is a good reference for Star Trek. Third opinion is that the encyclopedia has numerous errors in facts and reflects the work of a hurried writer rushing to meet a deadline, is very incomprehensive and doesn't attempt to answer all contradictions, and is either an okay or bad reference. And, further with the third opinion, the work is consistent with the other Star Trek publications of Paramount-good visual diagrams, summation of information seen on the shows with little elaboration, numerous errors, and an expensive price. Many people are either into the first or second opinion. I am into the third opinion.
One of the many frustrations I have is that facts are printed without collaborating evidence. An example-the debate on the Constitution Class prototype. Mr. Okuda writes that the NCC-1700 USS Constitution can be seen in a data screen from "Space Seed". The only thing I can think that might match this is the sickbay monitor that shows a schematic of a ship. The writing is ineligible. Did Mr. Okuda have a copy of the data screen on hand? My understanding is that the majority of props from the first series were destroyed or misplaced. Further, complicating matters, the only diagram of the NCC-1700, from "Datalore", shows the dorsal view of the ship with the registry and no name. I would have wished that he, if the prop is on hand, included the data screen into the encyclopedia. This data screen would have been of historical interest and might have helped the debate on either side of the Constitution Class prototype issue.
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takeoffs are optional; landings are mandatory
However, I don't want to think that the Batris and the Xhosa were of the same class. They are completely different in their size, bow structure and detailing. What I want to say is that both the Batris, the Xhosa, the Norkova and various other uses of the model represent one style of shipbuilding, a style that is in use in the UFP and includes the Antares class also in Starfleet use.
Much like you could with one look say "oh, that ship is a Djonk, it must be Chinese" or "that's a Daui, must be from some Arabic nation from the Indian Ocean", you can say "oh, that's an Antares-like design, must be UFP" as a first-estimate assessment. The fundamental structure of three cylindrar inboard engines and those typical containers underneath is something shared by a "school of shipbuilding" that sells its products to the UFP and also to foreign nations.
I find nothing objectionable in Talarians or Klingons or Cardassians having ships also operated by the UFP. The Soviet Union was full of DC-3 and B-29 planes till the sixties, and the "Made in Germany" warning during WWI was the biggest reason for somebody from Britain or France to buy the quality product.
In any case, I trust that there will never be any further data on the Arcos, but something may pop out on the Deneva class in general. In the meantime, I'm quite happy with having Deneva be the original Merchantman, in Starfleet registry and service if need be, but just as possibly in some other registry and service despite what the Encyclopedia suggests.
Timo Saloniemi
One that springs to mind (of many, many such things) are Ford's guide to The Chronicles of Narnia. There are no citations for any of the material - you are left to guess if he's directly citing one of the original books, reading between the lines, basing the material on the author's correspondence, or merely inventing facts and reasoning.
Another is Chaosium's "Encyclopedia Cthulhuiana" about Lovecraft's Cthulhu Mythos and the hundreds of stories by authors set in his universe. Each entry in this book describes the object in a complete and coherent description, then lists the sources at the end. Since the same entity might be described by different authors in different ways, you're left to guess which source corresponds to which part of the entry text.
The Encyclopedia helpfully intersperses the sources along with what is being referred to. It's not perfect, but it's much, much better than many comparative works.
I am annoyed by web sites and lists that don't fully document their materials. Heck, even ones I'm (partially) responsible for, like the Expanded Ship List. Looking at an entry, you can't always tell where the registry, class, name and description came from. Maybe it was named in an episode but classed in the encyclopedia and registried in mail from Okuda.
Ideally we'd tag all of this info with metadata. In XML, it'd be something like
Okay, back on topic now.
While poking around Bernd's site it looks like the Sheliak ship is a Merchantman redress. Does that strain the credibility of the ship as a Starfleet/civiian vessel occasionally sold to other species? The Sheliak (posited in that episode as being out of touch with the Feds for 111 years, but a comparatively powerful species) seem unlikely to be using 2nd hand starships.
Unfortunate - I was envisioning a Starfleet Merchantman as looking very Oberth-like, with nacelles slung under the wingtips (speculating that private vessels have less powerful inboard nacelles).
(ship)
(name source="TNG-206")U.S.S. Whatsit(/name)
(registry source="[email protected]")NCC-31415
(citation)
From: [email protected]
Date: 3/2/01
To: [email protected]
I made this one up to fill a gap in the listing.
(/citation)
(/registry)
(/ship)
The Vidiian ship from "Phage" is another very extensive Merchantman redress that *almost* manages to hide the origin of the ship (some very angular hull panels are added, and the easily identifiable "whiskers" camouflaged). It's a given that a Delta ship cannot be directly connected to Alpha ships, be they Sheliak or UFP or Klingon or Pakled in origin....
Timo Saloniemi
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ALPHA CENTAURI
Human Class - Starfleet registry NCC-75715
Launched stardate 8311.23 - Parental Biology Yards
United Federation of Planets
"A dedication motto? What about it?" - Alpha Centauri