Flare Sci-Fi Forums: Uprated Constitution class?

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Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :

Someone originally posted this in rec.arts.startrek.tech but didn't get any responses. I thought it was interesting, so I decided to post it here.

He stated that on one of the pages of the Operation: Retrieve chart in ST:VI, he thought he could see diagrams of what looked to be uprated versions of the Constitution class, or perhaps another class of ship entirely which looked similar. Since I don't own the movie and didn't feel like getting up off of my lazy butt and driving to Blockbuster, can anyone confirm this, or was this guy just seeing things?

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"Although I do not know how World War III will be fought, I do know how World War IV will be fought - with rocks and clubs." -Albert Einstein

Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :

I can confirm, it has two or three dorsal silhouettes of constitution class refits. I think one of them is ment to be the USS Eagle.

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Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

It is also possible that these are generic starship silhouettes, standing in for the actual ship shapes. We have seen this sort of thing before, in TNG (where the Excelsior class Potemkin had a silhouette of an Ambassador class, and the weird shuttle of "Skin of Evil" had the silhouette of a Type 7, even though there was abolutely no pressing reason not to call these vessels an Ambassador and a Type 7, respectively). Perhaps the Eagle was in fact an Oberth or an unseen type?

Or then the apparent Constitution-refit silhouettes are actually Belknap silhouettes.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by nx001a (Member # 291) on :

I just bought the video today and i had a look at the chart and i saw three shapes looking like constitution class ships but the the last one was a shape i did not recognise. It might be another ship class.

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Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :

Well, I have the DVD so :P (and it's running on my PlayStation 2 too) The Operation: Retrieve thing is 3 pages long, and the 3rd page has no ships so it's useless to this conversation. The first page has the routes of 3 starships, all of Constitution type, heading into Klingon space. The 2nd page shows two Constitutions and a 3rd, unknown vessel convering on Rura Pentha. To the right of this is an apparent size chart, maybe with starship name and registry information. A Constitution is shown, with two smaller classes. My guess for one of these classes is the Oberth. Beneath the each of these three ships there appear to be names and registry numbers. Unfortunatly, the name for the Constitution Class ship is very long, and cannot be U.S.S. Eagle. But, the name for the ship below that does appear short and could say Eagle, but there's no way of telling, too small. These names and numbers are repeated in the spaceial diagram to the left, with the respective name next to the ship. Unless someone's got a DVD player that can zoom, that's all the help I can be.

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Rachel Roberts: "Hong Kong? Nah. Oh, but we can live in China! Yeah, China has great Chinese food!"

(discussion with fellow classmate, 9/5/00)

Mustang Class Starship Development Project

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

So based on this, the Eagle wouldn't be a Constitution at all? Instead, it would be the middle ship in the "size comparison chart"? Well, this would make things more palatable for those of us who don't want to believe in Connies with NCC-956 registries...

Did I understand correctly that the second page shows three starships (2 Constitutions, one unknown) on a "star system map" and three starships "(1 Constitution, 2 different unknowns) in a "size comparison chart"? This would be an interesting discrepancy. Perhaps it means that three types of starships would participate in the maneuver, and three formations would be created out of these types. Two formations would have Constitutions as their most prominent ships, while one would have that unknown type as the lead ship.

The total number of ships in the operation would then be at least four, with this fourth ship not displayed on the map because of being "subordinate" to a displayed Constitution.

Timo Saloniemi

[This message has been edited by Timo (edited January 03, 2001).]

Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :

IIRC, the ships that would have participated in Operation:Retrieve were the Challenger, the Korolev, the Ahwahnee, the Eagle, and the Springfield.

I have the movie magazine of ST:VI at my folks' house, with a photo of the chart showing page 2 (the ships converging on the planet). I'll scan it as soon as I can, unless someone beats me to it.

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"Although I do not know how World War III will be fought, I do know how World War IV will be fought - with rocks and clubs." -Albert Einstein

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Wow!

I mean, wow!

Are these "movie magazines" a regular occurrence in your universe? Why don't these goodies ever appear on the shelves of European bookstores?

Hmm. If this is the selection of ships in "Operation Retrieve", then the Challenger and the Ahwahnee probably aren't Excelsiors after all, despite the registries. Otherwise, such prominent ships would probably have appeared in silhouette form, instead of the mere Constitutions. And the Korolev probably is the supposed Oberth silhouette...

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Identity Crisis (Member # 67) on :

Hmm, my notes say that the Operation Retrieve ships were the Ahwahnee, Challenger, Eagle, Endeavour, Potemkin, Scovil, and Springfield. I have the Korolev down as appearing on the Enterprise bridge okudagram.

Why would Starfleet send an Oberth on a dangerous mission to the heart of the Klingon Empire?

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-->Identity Crisis<--

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Because they are twits?

Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :

There was one Oberth at Wolf 359 and it seems that there were at least 2 Oberths in the Battle against the Borg in 2373 (First Contact). Compared to that, Klingons are a child's play for Oberths.

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Posted by Identity Crisis (Member # 67) on :

There's a world of difference between a feeble attempt to defend your capital from an invencible invader and a planned incursion into the heart of a hostile empire.

I'm on the 'they're twits' side of things.

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-->Identity Crisis<--

Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :

My posting was meant to support the they're twits' side of things. Sending Oberths in a battle against the Borg is as stupid as using them for Operation Retrieve.

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"Second star to the right, and then straight on till morning."

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Could someone please evaluate the supposed tactical insignificance of an Oberth? I can think of many uses for such a ship.

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Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

Such as a flying bomb...

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Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :

I believe Frank may be thinking of a fleet command center...

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Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Or for comms jamming, or for scanning the enemy ships, or even for combat, depending on the weapons configuration.

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Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

Ah, yes. I can see it happen very clearly:

"We've engaged the Borg!"

2 seconds later:

"We've lost the comm ship!"

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"That's your plan? Wile E. Coyote would come up with a better plan than that!"
- Crighton, Farscape.

Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :

It's not like any ship other than an Enterprise or Voyager would last any much longer. It all depends on shielding. A newer Oberth probably has very powerful shielding.

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"What happens on the edges of infinity, the never-never land of mathematics?"
-Miss Hodgin

Posted by colin (Member # 217) on :

The Oberth Class scout is not a warship nor was the ship ever designed for war.

Unlike the other starships of the 23rd century, this class has no weapon turrets nor photon torpodoe locations. And her shields are very weak. In both instances where an Oberth Class ship were destroyed, the ships were destroyed by a single shot with shields raised.

Though we are led to believe that Starfleet doesn't sacrifice life needlessly, there are instances where life is sacrificed needlessly. In "Emissary", the Vulcan captain takes a ship with families aboard into battle against the Borg. In "First Contact", the Steamrunners were destroyed repeatedly. I counted at least 7 of these ships destroyed.

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Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

"Unlike the other starships of the 23rd century, this class has no weapon turrets nor photon torpodoe locations."

Can you prove this, though?

"And her shields are very weak. In both instances where an Oberth Class ship were destroyed, the ships were destroyed by a single shot with shields raised."

How do you know this? The Bonestell could have been hit before we saw it, and the Grissom didn't seem to have time to even raise its shields.

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Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

It seems the Grissom had time to "stand by" for evasive action, and there were rather lengthy cuts into the Klingon bridge in the middle of the action. I have no doubt Esteban *could* have raised shields in the time allotted. That isn't proof he did raise them, but do we really want to think that every non-main-character officer in Starfleet is an idiot?

I rather like the idea of an Oberth playing a major role in covert ops. Of course, she could be just a decoy (or indeed a flying bomb, although I doubt Starfleet really wanted to do anything as noisy as that). But it could also be that a properly tuned Oberth is the lowest-signature ship available to Starfleet. Or then SFI or some sort of Starfleet commando force likes to use these innocent-looking ships as the specially equipped motherships for their cloaking powered-armor infiltration units.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

No torpodoes? Next you'll be saying it doesn't have any condondrums either. . .

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Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

How and when did the Bonestell go down?

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A narrow and a tall one.

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Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

Of all the ways you had to put it. . . what is this sudden obsession with things going down everywhere?

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Luke Ford: "What's it like having a dick in your ass?"

Zoe: "Imagine taking your bottom lip and pulling it over the top of your head. You get used to it but it does hurt."

Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :

The Bonestell was destroyed at Wolf 359.

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"What happens on the edges of infinity, the never-never land of mathematics?"
-Miss Hodgin

Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :

quote:
I have no doubt Esteban *could* have raised shields in the time allotted.

I don't think so. The time between arrival of the BoP and destruction of the Grissom was too short for establishing a commcontact with Starfleet Command to get permission for raising shilds.

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"Second star to the right, and then straight on till morning."

Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :

Here's a thought: Maybe the Grissom was a specialty vessel. Powerful sensors and analyzing equipment in sacrifice of shielding and weaponry. Maybe Starfleet figured that no one would try to get to Genesis, and didn't think an armed vessel would be needed.

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"What happens on the edges of infinity, the never-never land of mathematics?"
-Miss Hodgin

Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

quote:
Unlike the other starships of the 23rd century, this class has no weapon turrets nor photon torpodoe locations.

I've said this many times, and it has been proven many times as well. But I'll say it again, just for all you newbies: There was an Oberth class ship which fired a phaser in the movie 'First Contact'.

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"That's your plan? Wile E. Coyote would come up with a better plan than that!"
- Crighton, Farscape.

Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :

quote:
There was an Oberth class ship which fired a phaser in the movie 'First Contact'.

, but AFAIK there are no phasers on the Oberth-studiomodel.

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[This message has been edited by Fitz (edited January 04, 2001).]

Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :

Erm, why is the Edit-function disabled?

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Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :

Please see this thread: http://flare.solareclipse.net/Forum1/HTML/000156.html

People should head straight to the Announcements forum if there's a new post there... CC wouldn't post something there for the fun of it.

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"What happens on the edges of infinity, the never-never land of mathematics?"
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Posted by Starship Freak (Member # 293) on :

Dukhat, have you had time yet to scan the charts? I�m very curious :-)

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Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :

I found the movie magazine & I'll scan the photo tonight. However, you're not going to be impressed. The pic is too small to make out any details, but I will post it anyway.

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"Although I do not know how World War III will be fought, I do know how World War IV will be fought - with rocks and clubs." -Albert Einstein

Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :

Here's the scan. Hope I didn't get anyone's hopes up, but as you can see there's nothing here of use.

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Star Trek: Legacy -
Timeline of Pertinent Events

Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :

Hmmm, darn, that's Page 3, and it doesn't list any ships on it I don't think...

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Me: "Why don't you live in Hong Kong?"
Rachel Roberts: "Hong Kong? Nah. Oh, but we can live in China! Yeah, China has great Chinese food!"

(discussion with fellow classmate, 9/5/00)

Mustang Class Starship Development Project

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Hmm... Was that Rura Penthe or Qo'noS they were trying to bust Kirk and McCoy out of? Which planet does the map represent? I guess Starfleet could already have been pretty sure of the two ending up in Rura Penthe at that point of the timeline, so a plan centering on that location would be likely - and definitely easier than barging in to the Klingon home system, one would think.

What does the lower left box read? "Planetary something"... And is that number on the lower right a stardate? Perhaps they just dusted off some old invasion plans.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Nonsuch on :

they might also chose an Oberth because it's the closest ship to wherever they were going to send it.

the box title looks like "planetary surface file" with three numbers after it to me.

Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :

I personally hold to the belief that the Oberths were sent in to beam survivors aboard from lifeboats and get them out of the area -- and that these ships were used because they were unarmed and it was hoped the Borg wouldn't view them as a threat. Oh, well...

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