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Posted by [email protected] on :

It has been stated that the Starship Melbourne wasn't identified as an Excelsior class ship until the first episode of DS9(Emissary).
I'd like to know why it took so long to do this when the Melbourne was seen on screen with the Enterprise-D at New Providence Colony on Star Date 43992.6? The first episode of Best of Both World's.

JDW

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Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

I don't think the ship seen with the Enterprise was ever identified as the Melbourne. She very well could've been, but I don't think that was ever established.

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You don't spit into the wind.
You don't pull the mask off the ole' Lone Ranger
And you don't mess around with Jim."
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Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :

It wasn't. Ever. In dialogue or on screen. Trust us. We. Know.

The footage of the Excelsior-class ship seen in the episode was stock footage of the USS Repulse, NCC-2544 (first seen in "The Child" at the beginning of the second season). This footage is often combined with the stock footage of the USS Hood (NCC-42296, first seen in "Encounter at Farpoint" at the beginning of the first season), to represent almost every Excelsior class ship EVER seen in TNG. With the Exception of "Redemption Part II" (and possibly "Unification Part II", I don't think the Excelsior model was used for anything else in the whole series except for those two recycled shots.

The producers siffed up the model for use in "Generations", and it was only ever used once after that, for "Paradise Lost" (DS9). Chalk it up to Voyager to create that nifty new Excelsior model so we can see it again in new shots ["Flashback" (VOY), "For the Uniform" (DS9), et. al.] and ultimately in CGI for DS9.

Mark

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"Why build one, when you can have two at twice the price?"

- Carl Sagan, "Contact"

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

I think the first time we heard that the Admiral was on board the Melbourne was later on in the two parter. It's a good theory though. Maybe that's one of the reasons that Excelsior was there with the Ent D. Since Riker had been offered the command...

Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :

There's absolutely no way that there could have been dialogue indicating that the Excelsior seen at the beginning of "BoBW PtI" was the Melbourne. At the time, the kitbashed Nebula was the definitive Melbourne.

Of course, the whole scene was vague enough so that we can now *presume* that that Excelsior WAS the Melbourne, and that Hanson was on it when it was destroyed. But that was not the original intention.

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Star Trek: Legacy

Posted by [email protected] on :

If you guys will go back and look at the early part of the first episode of "Best of Both Worlds" you'll clearly hear Captain Picard state in his Captain's Log that Admiral Hansen & Commander Shelby from Starfleet Tactical had joined the Enterprise.
Now after some discussion in Picard's ready room Riker & Shelby leave the room Hansen tell's Picard that Shelby would make a hell of a First Officer.
Here's the knot you've got to untie before you convince me that there was a Nebula class starship named MELBOURNE!
Picard asked Hansen which ship was offered to Riker and Hansen said "The Melbourne".
This is just a theory but say Hansen had the Melbourne meet the Enterprise to transfer both Riker & Shelby to their respective ships had Riker taken the center seat!

JDW

Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :

"Nebula class starship named MELBOURNE!"

Canonically, there isn't one. So, you don't need to be convinced.

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"...screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!" - Omega.

Irony ensues.

Free Jeff K

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Or, to be anal-retentively accurate, a Nebula (or similar-looking) class ship with the name Melbourne on it was seen briefly on screen ("canonized") in "BoBW", but the resolution at which it was shot precluded the reading of the name. If one wants to maintain that this ship really and "canonically" was named the Melbourne, one might have to accept that another ship in the shot was named the Alka-selsior...

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by DARKSTAR on :

The ship seen at the beginning of BOBW was the Melbourne and that Hanson had the ship meet the Enterprise D at the New Providence Colony so Riker and Shelby could beam over and have a look at each ship. There where Riker got the line"She isn't the Enterprise". This means he beamed over had a look around and wasn't impressed with what he saw. This also means that the ship needed a refit as Riker thought she wasn't as good as the Enterprise.

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

Hanson: "He's not going to turn down another command?"
Picard: "One's available?"
Hanson: "The Melbourne. It's his if he wants it."

This does not by any means prove that the Excelsior class Hanson arrived on was the Melbourne. But in retrospect, as I said way up there, now that we *know* the Melbourne to be an Excelsior, she probably was.

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Here we go again. I don't give a flying fuck if there was some obscure reference in the Graveyard-scene, that took place AFTER the famed early dialogue in Part I. And if the scriptwriters wanted us to think Hanson DIDN'T refer to the Excelsior ship he came in, they would've made him say, "My own ship, the Melbourne, is available." Or, "I hear the Melbourne is available."
But he didn't. And when he said his piece, I immediately thought of that ship riding next to the Enterprise, so clear was his disposition.

That's the last thing I will ever say in the matter. What others think is not my concern.

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Here lies a toppled god,
His fall was not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and a tall one.

-Tleilaxu Epigram

Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :

The lack of literacy of some people is amazing. I can spot, one, two - no, three good reasons why the Excelsior isn't definitively the Melbourne, yet simply because in Emissary, we found out it was an Excelsior, they automatically are adamant and sure about this BOBW Excelsior.

This is becoming as redundant as gun threads in the Flameboard.

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"...screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!" - Omega.

Irony ensues.

Free Jeff K

[This message has been edited by Ultra Magnus (edited February 22, 2001).]

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

Yup. You can say now all you want that the Melbourne was an Excelsior class, and most people will agree. However, they will also realise that, at the time of BoBW, the designers intented for the Melbourne to be Nebula class.

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"And Mojo was hurt and I would have kissed his little boo boo but then I realized he was a BAD monkey so I KICKED HIM IN HIS FACE!"
-Bubbles

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Ah, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions! And turnips!

[This message has been edited by Nimrod (edited February 22, 2001).]

Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :

That's TWO! Get in the gutter!

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"...screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!" - Omega.

Irony ensues.

Free Jeff K

Posted by [email protected] on :

Since the prototype Nebula is now known not to be the Melbourne, is there anyway to attach a name to it?
Like say USS LONG BEACH! Which if I remember correctly was the first and only Nuclear powered cruiser in the US Navy.
"JUST AN IDEA"

JDW

Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :

Hey everybody! Anyone who's never seen a conniption before should watch this thread -- I have a feeling if this keeps going as it is currently, something in my brain is gonna pop! *insane giggle*

Okay. *narrows eyes*

I will try to stay cool, calm, and collected. Nothing seen or said anywhere in "Best of Both Worlds" indicated or was meant to indicate that the Excelsior that met the E-D over Jouret IV was the Melbourne. In "The Icarus Factor", we had much mention of the prior ship Riker was offered -- the Aries -- but we never saw it, and everyone seemed to know to which ship everyone else was referring. I always interpreted that first scene in Picard's ready room, from the very first viewing waaaay back in '90, to be intended as follows...

Hanson suggests Shelby as Picard's new XO (under the impression Riker's going to take the Melbourne). Picard says he's happy with Riker (not knowing anything about this). Hanson expresses surprise that Riker's turning down another command (after having presumably discussed it with Picard). Picard asks which ship (since he's not as in the loop as Hanson seems to think). Hanson tells him -- in a tone of voice indicating to me that he figured Riker had discussed all this with his Captain. In other words:

"One's available?"
"The Melbourne. (You know, the ship he talked to you about? Have you forgotten already?) It's his if he wants it..."

That's how I interpreted Hanson's tone of voice: mild incredulity.

There's nothing definitive in canon to settle this, so anyone saying the argument's over is just being arrogant to some degree. We had a Nebula-class Melbourne onscreen in "BoBW", "Future Imperfect", "Emissary", and the majority of Deep Space Nine episodes with scenes in Sisko's office; and an Excelsior-class Melbourne seen once in "Emissary". And from this last example, many people (you know who you are) have taken to reading meaning into "BoBW" that may or may not have been there. That's the problem with interpretations -- there are as many interpretations as there are viewers. I personally go with precedent, registry, and quantity and am quite happy with my Nebula-class Melbourne, thank you. Don't think you can change my mind.

--Jonah

Additional: How many of you, if the VFX people who put the Excelsior-Melbourne in "Emissary" hadn't, would still be claiming the Excelsior at Jouret IV was the Melbourne...?

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"It's obvious I'm dealing with a moron..."

--Col. Edwards, ROBOTECH

Posted by Obi Juan (Member # 90) on :

For those who say that the writer's implied through ADM Hansen's dialog that the Melbourne was the same Excelsior he arrived on:

Are you just saying that this was yet another mix up between the writers and the VFX department. Maybe the FX guys didn't catch the implication either and decided to show a Nebula?

Just wondering.

Posted by Wes (Member # 212) on :

hmmm... All your base are belong to us?

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Neelix: [stands there dumbfounded] "b..but.."
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Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Peregrinus: "anyone saying the argument's over is just being arrogant to some degree."

You're the arrogant one.

"many people (you know who you are) have taken to reading meaning into "BoBW" that may or may not have been there."

It could be argued that you are one of "those" as well, the way you're interpreting "BoBW".

The impact of the graveyard-scene was heightened when Shelby spotted the Melbourne among the wreckages. That impact hadn't been achieved had it not been implied the admiral had been aboard the Melbourne, hence her feeling of loss.

And as for me being "arrogant", I didn't mean to say the discussion's over, I meant my interest in convincing people like you is over. Big difference.

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Here lies a toppled god,
His fall was not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and a turnip.

-Tleilaxu Epigram

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Okay ...

Guys, there are a lot of different ways people can look at this ep. The somberness at the wreckage that was once the Melbourne can either be Riker and Shelby ...

a) mourning Adm. Hanson's death

b) mourning what would of been Riker's death had he taken the ship

Really, it could work either way.

WES1701E == ARGGH!!! I will kill you now!!!

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"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
****
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Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Damn you guys...

I don't think Shelby was so aware of the fact (that Riker COULD'VE been on the doomed ship) that it gave her pause.

The Hanson/Picard conversation was not an arrangement to prepare for Wolf 359, it was off the record.
It would've taken Riker weeks, if not months, to transfer to a new ship and assuming command, after first wrapping up all the affairs on the big E.

We might as well assume the sorrow in the scene was ascribed to the staff not getting rid of Riker in another three months, he had nowhere to go now.

Now, if Shelby did NOT arrive in the Melbourne with Hanson then she had no connection to the ship at all, it was just another ship that a colleague (that she had no connection to) might've transferred too.

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Here lies a toppled god,
His fall was not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and a turnip.

-Tleilaxu Epigram

Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :

Nimrod -- I was positing that those who are saying the argument is settled are being arrogant (because they then go on to "explain" how their position is the only correct one), while my simply continuing to cling to my interpretation WITHOUT pre-emptively declaring that my "revelation" will quell all disagreement... is not.

I am well aware of the problems facing both Nebula-Melbourne and Excelsior-Melbourne directions. Whenever someone declares definitively that it is one or the other, I feel compelled to bring up those problems to see how they deal with them. So far, the rationalizations have been... lacking. Therefore, I stay with my take on things, leave the resolution in limbo, and don't let it bother me much -- except when someone has the vocal epiphany that everything is settled because of some new evidence they then present that is about as newsworthy as the discovery of fire.

If anything is presented as supporting evidence, it ought to be something that hasn't been masticated to death repeatedly already.

--Jonah

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"It's obvious I'm dealing with a moron..."

--Col. Edwards, ROBOTECH

[This message has been edited by Peregrinus (edited February 24, 2001).]

Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :

As we're going over this stuff again anyway, I may as well restate my solution: TWO MELBOURNES. One, the Nebula-class ship that the writers intended to be offered to Riker, which we sorta see in BOBWII. The other, the Excelsior-class ship seen in "Emissary", retired some time prior to the episode (supposedly to be replaced by the Nebula-Melbourne) and hauled out of mothballs to fight at Wolf 359.

Assumption: In the non-canon novelization of the episode (allegedly based on the script - anyone have that, BTW?) the Excelsior-Melbourne is said to be making a "suicide run" on the cube, and was destroyed before it could get there.

Fact: the Excelsior-Melbourne didn't fire a single shot when seen onscreen (we only see the Saratoga, Bellerophon and Yamaguchi fire phasers) and was closer to the cube than any other ship when it was destroyed.

Theory: the Excelsior-Melbourne was an unmanned ship brought out of mothbals and set to ram the Cube. Hence, why it didn't fire back, and perhaps why the cube didn't encounter any shield resistance when it fired on her.

Supposition: The Nebula-Melbourne Riker was offered was in the Wolf 359 fleet, and was destroyed after the earlier Melbourne.

Conclusion: Two Melbournes. One retired and reactivated to act as a big unmanned ram, which didn't work. The other one, possibly with Riker's XO-to-be in command, fought and was destroyed later.

That's my idea. Rip apart at your leisure.

Mark

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"Why build one, when you can have two at twice the price?"

- Carl Sagan, "Contact"

[This message has been edited by Mark Nguyen (edited February 24, 2001).]

Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :

"Two Nebulas."

I assume you mean two Melbournes, correct?

(You can never be too careful with some people around here (ds), they may take your mistake as fact.

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"This is such an amazingly minor complaint. Does anyone actually watch episodes anymore, or is it just a notebook + pause button exercise these days?"
-Sol System on what constitutes modern day Star Trek watching, 02-22-01

[This message has been edited by Ultra Magnus (edited February 24, 2001).]

Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :

You're so right. Editted, and done.

Mark

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"Why build one, when you can have two at twice the price?"

- Carl Sagan, "Contact"

Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :

Mark, that will only work (for me, anyway) if we alter the registry of the Excelsior-Melbourne to something other than the Nebula's 62043...

--Jonah

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"It's obvious I'm dealing with a moron..."

--Col. Edwards, ROBOTECH

Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :

Perhaps the Excelsior Melbourne fired weapons while we weren't looking. Hell maybe Saratoga fired torpedos while we weren't looking. (And the launcher(s) could have been relocated during a (design) refit.)

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Bart: Ohhh, I see... you HATE him, so you gave him to the church.
Groundskeeper Willy: Aye. I also 'ate the mess he left on me rug. [Bart stares.] Ya heard me!

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

Here's my theory: After slaughtering the 'Fleet armada, the Borg chopped up the burning hulk of the Excelsior-class Melborne, and welded the name plate onto a Neblua. Why? Just to mess with the heads of silly people like the lot of you.

Have a nice day!

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Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :

Wow, I never thought of that...

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Homer: "Maybe five dollars will refresh my memory."
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Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :

I think Omega's nailed it. There's no other plausible explanation.

Mark

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"Why build one, when you can have two at twice the price?"

- Carl Sagan, "Contact"

Posted by [email protected] on :

After Data informed Riker that the fleet had engaged the Borg at Wolf359 and Riker made his way to the bridge to recieve the communication from Admiral Hansen, what did the scene around the Admiral look like? To me it appeared that the Admial's ship was firing phasers and photon torpedoes, even though these actions were never seen on screen. Besides, if none of the ships had engaged the Borg might they have ignored them until the fleet attacked? Remember, the Borg on the cube ignored the away team until they started taking out power relays or whatever those things were overhead. After that it was Katie bar the door and run like hell!

JDW