The issue is this: this is a nuclear powered ship that could take years to travel to the nearest planet. How could a ship this slow travel 20 lightyears plus from Earth to the Gamma 400 star system in 200 years? She couldn't. The S.S. Botany Bay would be somewhere between Alpha Centauri and Sol. And a ship of UESPA or the Federation would have found her within decades of her launch.

After reading the above, you are wondering why I said Gamma 400 star system. During the course of the show, after the S.S. Botany Bay is discovered, both ships travel at impulse to Starbase 12. If Starbase 12 is in another system, then both ships would have a very long journey of years. Adding to this, both ships are illuminated by a bright light source. From what I have seen of Star Trek, ships travel at warp between planets, nebula, quasars, etc. They never travel at impulse between these astronomical bodies, unless forced to by necessity or emergencies. And in solar systems, ships travel at impulse except in selected cases where warp is preferable.

Further, there is a major contradiction between this episode and two other episodes-"Where No Man Has Gone Before" and "Metamorphoses". According to these shows, warp drive was available and in use in the 1990's. The S.S. Botany Bay would have to be warp powered to travel the distances shown in the episode.

Third, the nature of the launch. Mr. Okuda suggested that the S.S. Botany Bay was launched on boosters. This is very photographic; however, I believed it to be flawed. The Saturn V, a rocket measuring approximately 110 meters, required 7.5 million pounds of thrust. This has been proven to be the threshold of rocketry. No other rocket has successfully attempted to surpass the Saturn V in size or thrust.

S.S. Botany Bay is somewhat larger than the Saturn V. This is demonstrated in what I believe to be one of the best scaling shots in the whole franchise. Early in "Space Seed", we see the S.S. Botany Bay travel alongside the U.S.S. Enterprise. The U.S.S. Enterprise is 290 meters long. If the S.S. Botany Bay is slightly larger than the engineering hull of the Federation starship, this would make her length approximately 145 meters, a gain or loss of some meters. The boosters would add additional meters. Thus, the entire package would be approximately 175 meters, a gain or loss of some meters. To lift this package, the thrust would have to be greater than the Saturn V. This I feel is impossible.

I envision the S.S. Botany Bay to be like the Discovery of 2001. Both ships are constructed in space and sent on long distance missions. For the crew's well-being, they are put into stasis until the ship arrives at its destination.

There are of course other issues. The dating of the Eugenics War is one of the other issues.

To solve the issues mentioned here and the other issues, I propose a solution.

In the years between 2063 and 2113, there was a final world war.
Evidence-Spock said the war was the last global war in "Space Seed". He didn't give a number. Troi in "First Contact" said in fifty years that there will be no war. Fifty years from 2063 is 2113.

This war is the Eugenics War. The War lasted four years.
Evidence-Dates in "Space Seed". 1992 is the first year. 1996 is the last year.

At the end of the war, Khan and his people seized a warp capable ship that could achieve warp 1. This ship belonged to the DY-100 class. These ships were constructed in the same decade as the war. More improved classes would follow after the war. Her technology didn't permit her to have adequate supplies for the crew and passengers on a long mission, so her crew and passengers were placed into stasis. (This may give an idea of the S.S. Valiant. Her crew may have been placed into stasis until their encounter with the galactic barrier.) Evidence-Distance covered in "Space Seed". Compability with other evidence from original show (see above). Class and construction period from "Space Seed".
S.S. Valiant from "Where No Man Has Gone Before".

This ship traveled tens of lightyears. At some point, the ship entered into the Gamma 400 star system. Soon after, a Federation starship made contact.
Evidence-"Space Seed"

------------------

takeoffs are optional; landings are mandatory

[This message has been edited by targetemployee (edited March 01, 2001).]
 

Also, have we ever had an actual onscreen reference to a "World War III"? All the dialogue I can remember on the subject refers to a "Third World War", which can be interpreted in more than one way. A war in -- or heavily involving -- the Third World being one of the most intriguing...

The Eugenincs Wars were not this Third World War. From what we can glean, much of the world's populace was unaware of these "wars", as they involved seriously closed-door intrigues and politicking and power playing. The defeat of the genetic supermen, however, evidently did set the stage for the Third World War, as it seemed to follow the Eugenics Wars closely, but not right on the heels of Khan's departure.

And if the Botany Bay did a double slingshot around Jupiter and Saturn (or maybe even the sun), followed by a protracted burn of whatever the primary propulsion system was, they might have gotten up to an appreciable percentage of lightspeed and been coasting at what for us would be mid-to-high-impulse speeds by the time the Enterprise found her.

--Jonah

------------------
"It's obvious I'm dealing with a moron..."

--Col. Edwards, ROBOTECH

I am aware of the differences.

When I wrote this piece, I include observations and paraphrasing of dialogue. This is common on this site. Some of these observations involve real world science.

The Eugenics War is stated very clearly by Spock to be the last global war. This war was not done behind closed doors. Cities and nations were being destroyed.

Considering our knowledge of the Star Trek universe, the Eugenics War makes more sense if placed after the Third World War. The Third World War caused massive damage and killed 600 billion. In this carnage, hundreds of genetically breed humans could have taken control of 3/4 of the world's population. In the beginning, they were seen as a blessing. Later, the populace would have seen them as tyrants intent on control and seizing other territories. The populace rebelled and overthrew the dictators. One dictator survived with his followers.

Further, Peregrinus, you said that the S.S. Botany Bay would have gotten a boost from the sling shot effect. I read in an article that as a ship enters the Kuiper Belt, the ship slows down. This is proved by the probes we have sent over the past twenty years. The S.S. Botany Bay would have slowed down and would have been eventually found by a passing ship.

I, therefore, postulated that the S.S. Botany Bay was a warp capable ship with a very low warp. She could travel 20 plus light years in 200 years with warp.

To go to the beginning, I don't see how my observations, opinions, and use of dialogue is any different than any else on this forum. Yet Peregrinus, you opinioned that I don't know the difference. I know the difference. Please read my piece again closely. Thank you.

I enjoyed writing this piece and hope to hear more voices.

------------------

takeoffs are optional; landings are mandatory
 

I don't understand why it's necessary to have warp drive in order to travel 20 light years in 200 years. Seems you'd only need to go 1/10th the speed of light ro do that in the time indicated. Or am I missing something here?

I agree that the Botany Bay could not be booster launched. Remember that the massive Saturn V's three stages were required just to get the tiny Apollo capsule, serice module and LEM to the Moon. To push something the size and mass of the Enterprise engineering hull into orbit (something clearly thousands of times the mass of an Apollo capsule) is unreasonable.

------------------
To know a thing well, know its limits. Only when pushed beyond its tolerances will true nature be seen.
The Amtal Rule (Dune)
---
Titan Fleet Yards - Harry Doddema's Star Trek Site

Also, the Enterprise would most likely have been capable of towing other ships at warp speeds. Many races have demonstrated this ability in TOS and in other shows, and there's nothing explicit to say that such towing was beyond Starfleet's abilities. So SB 12 could be far away from the area of discovery. We know SB 12 is near Pollux, judging by "Who Mourns For Adonais", so Khan might have been heading in this direction.

I still don't see how "Where No Man" or "Metamorphosis" would put warp speed into the 1990s. Sure, they do that if one assumes that they took place about half a century earlier than Okuda dating puts them. But the case for such dating doesn't seem to be any stronger than that for Okuda dating - these episodes themselves certainly never mention any fixed dates, only relative ones.

Finally, liftoff of an intact DY-100 should be an easy feat for the kind of rocketry that launched Cochrane's Phoenix. One could say that Cochrane's technology was superior to that of the 1990s; or one could say that the DY-100s had access to this same technology. The Saturn V was based on the best one could do by burning kerosene. A simple upgrade to air-breathing technology and more energetic fuels would step up the capacity, not to mention forgetting about oxidizers and chemical reactions altogether and going straight for fission heating or somesuch.

Timo Saloniemi
 

Did you say they killed 600 billion?. Um, that's killing everyone on the earth like 100 times over!

------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 6.27 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with four eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
****
"The candidate who slimed John McCain in the primaries and smeared Al Gore in the general election is now the president who pledges to elevate the nation's tone and bring civility to our discorse. Kind of like Michael Corleone brought peace to the mob by killing the heads of the other four families."
--Paul Begala, Is Our Children Learning?

--Jonah

------------------
"It's obvious I'm dealing with a moron..."

--Col. Edwards, ROBOTECH

Based on the dialogue from "Space Seed", I would say that the war occured in the late 21st century. The Eugenics War is the last global war of Earth before world governments began forming in the early 22nd century-ex. European Hegemony. And furthermore, this would work with the general context of the original series that the Eugenics War was in the time period when warp drive was first being used.

------------------

takeoffs are optional; landings are mandatory

[This message has been edited by targetemployee (edited March 01, 2001).]
 

As for why Khan thought he came from 200 years previous, rather than 300, perhaps Kirk either misspoke, or deliberately deceived Khan for some reason. The former is more likely. I'm guessing Khan was simply told "200 years", so he believed it, because no-one ever mentioned the actual year to him.

As for the Botany Bay... Perhaps it was launched from space, and those "boosters" were actually just normal rockets. They could have slingshotted 'round Jupiter and Saturn, then used the rockets to speed their way through the Kuiper Belt and avoid being slowed down.

------------------
We are the Borg. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.
"Wowsers!"
-Star Trek: Series ?: "A Pair o' Docs, part II"
 

------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 6.27 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with four eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
****
"The candidate who slimed John McCain in the primaries and smeared Al Gore in the general election is now the president who pledges to elevate the nation's tone and bring civility to our discorse. Kind of like Michael Corleone brought peace to the mob by killing the heads of the other four families."
--Paul Begala, Is Our Children Learning?

------------------
I will shout until they know what I mean.
--
Neutral Milk Hotel
****
Read three (three!) chapters of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Then, go insane!

[This message has been edited by Sol System (edited March 01, 2001).]
 

------------------
"No, 3 & 6 are mandatory, so you only have to do them if you want"

Alex, fellow classmate, trying to explain an assignment (2/2/01)

 

--Jonah

------------------
"It's obvious I'm dealing with a moron..."

--Col. Edwards, ROBOTECH

------------------
We are the Borg. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.
"Wowsers!"
-Star Trek: Series ?: "A Pair o' Docs, part II"
 

Seriously, what if, say, instead of trying to get away by slingshotting around Jupiter, they slingshot around the SUN? Huh? Might get that little time warp thing going, and end up back in 1996? Thus the Botany Bay left Earth in 1996, and Kahn's men swore to live and die by his command 200 years before Terrel was born. Convoluted, but it works. I think.

------------------
Disclaimer:
"All references to vices and of the supernatural contained in this game are for entertainment purposes only. _Over_The_Edge_ does not promote satanisim, belief in magic, drug use, violence, sexual deviation, body piercing, cynical attitudes toward the government, freedom of expression, or any other action or belief not condoned by the authorities."
- `OverTheEdge'
 

------------------

takeoffs are optional; landings are mandatory

[This message has been edited by targetemployee (edited March 02, 2001).]
 

Now, it's a show. Remember that. Remember that above all else. And remember that we're all friends here, and that disagreement does not mean...I don't know, anti-targetism.

------------------
I will shout until they know what I mean.
--
Neutral Milk Hotel
****
Read three (three!) chapters of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Then, go insane!

[This message has been edited by Sol System (edited March 02, 2001).]
 

Timeline A:
Eugenics war is fought and engulfs the entire planet. Khan and his followers are enventually defeated and are exported to Australia where they are kept under in suspeneded animation. The botany bay is being sent up stage by stage for constuction (a bit like the International Space Station). The Government of Earth decides to put Khan and his Followers on this ship and elect to send him and his followers plunging into the Sun. Khan and his followers are put onto the ship but the mission is sabotaged instead of being sent into the sun was tied into an orbit and the ship continued to pick up speed as it's engines approached maximum speed. The ship had enough speed to leave the Sun's Orbit and blast it's way out of the Solar System (about Warp 1) after the ship left the solar system it's speed reduced to 10% of light speed and it was like this for 200 light years until the Enterprise found her.

Timeline B
1996 is like what it was. Voyager is drawn 73,000 light years and 377 years into the past. Eugenics War has yet to be fought.

CONCLUSION
SPACE SEED:2265
TWOK:2285
VOY FUTURE END:2373
2265-200=2065 The eugenics war could have been an isolated battlefield, Khan was defeated in Asia (Where his Kingdom was.) The eugenics war in turn triggers events which cause WW III. When Khan is put on the spaceship, Europe votes against it and condems USA and the rest of the world for putting Khan on the ship. Europe then cuts off it's supplies to USA and Russia, These countries then launch an attack on Europe which is disastourous and the forces that attack Europe are obliterated and Europe launches counter Nuclear attack on USA and Russia which reduces the countries to wastegrounds. What remains of the counties fights back and fires nuclear missles at Australia,Asia and Canada who are allied with Europe. In response Europe fires at Africa,Central and South America who are allied with America and Europe is then directly attacked by Nuclear attack, The countries to fall first are:
1) Portugal
2) Spain
3) Poland
Europe launches a counter attack at America and Russia which leaves only America in the War. America again launches direct Nuclear attack on Europe The countries to fall are
1)UK
2)Italy
3)Greece and the Balkans.
4)Austria, Hungary and Romainia and the Czech Republic
Europe and America decide to launch an allout attack on each other, The fire missles at eachother at the same time which obliterates both Europe and America leaving only cvillian survivors who had hide in Nuclear bunkers-Among them a certain Zempfram Cochrane and Lily Sloane

Perhaps the nuclear exchange directly killed only those 34 million or so people mentioned in "Bread and Circuses", and the rest of the 600 million died of hunger, poverty and diseases following the collapse of the infrastructure in large areas of the globe. It might be for example that the big nuclear nations all launched their missiles at their worst enemies, but all of those enemies already had anti-missile defences and the attacks thus failed to damage any major targets. However, missiles directed at lesser targets did more damage. And perhaps, say, Washington DC or Moscow or Beijing (which we never see in Trek) was leveled when the government was gathering for an emergency meeting, thus creating chaos throughout the country even though a relatively low number of people died?

Timo Saloniemi
 

There are quite a few arguments I didn't consider so far. I also believe that Khan must have left Earth much later than 1996 for several reasons - provided there is only one Trek timeline, and I have the impression that WW III and the Eugenic Wars are the same.

As for the damage WW III has done, I was never fond of the idea of the "Post-Apocalyptic Horror" established in "Encounter at Farpoint". I think that if civilization was still reduced to barbarism in 2079 (the silly yet supposedly realistic scenery looked rather like "Mad Max" than Star Trek), it would have lasted much longer than a century until mankind, now united, would have been a worthy founding member of the Federation. Also, like Timo said, what about all these old buildings. The fact that we see ugly concrete-steel-glass architecture in Cambridge or Paris along with the old buildings is a definite sign of continuity. If everything had been lowered in WW III, there would be an all-modern or an all-historizing style.

------------------
"Species 5618, human. Warp-capable, origin grid 325, physiology inefficient, below average cranium capacity, minimum redundant systems, limited regenerative abilities."
Ex Astris Scientia

 

For the purpose of this discussion, let's forget dates.

The original Star Trek established that about 150 to 200 hundred years ago humanity had developed interstellar travel. At the beginning of this technology and socialogical leap, the Eugenics War began and ended. This war was catastrophic, but didn't impede the advancement of humanity into the stars. The exact number of dead is not known. (In "Bread and Circuses", Spock lowered the numbers. The reason is thus-To preserve the Prime Directive, both Federation captains had lied about their origins. The Roman nation, being xenophobic and isolationist, had never traveled outside their boundaries and therefore couldn't validate the strangers claims. The claims were accepted at face value. So, the two Federation captains said that they came from a land across the ocean and that they had ships at the shore. And so when Spock said that 34 million had died, he was giving a projected number if the world wars had been fought on a smaller scale. This is consistent with all three world wars. I suppose this answers the question raised by the episode "Space Seed". Which world war is mentioned? The Third World War.)

In the next series, humanity had begun to explore space three hundred years before. Also, as in the first series, the exploration of the stars began after a terrible war. This is the Third World War.

The sequence of events matches. Just the dating doesn't.

In the next series, we are told that the Eugenics War occured two hundred years before. This would be long after the early phase of space exploration. And this contradicts information given in the last series that there was no war on Earth after 2113.

In the next series, we are shown briefly a DY-100 series ship with boosters. In the footage 'captured' by Voyager, we see no launches of the DY-100 series ship or news reports about the DY-100 series ship. Furthermore, there are no news reports about a Eugenics program. And furthermore, ships are not traveling at warp speeds in the time period of the model.

Based on all four sources of information, I would say that the first two were close to each other in the sequence of events. First, a terrible war. Second, warp drive was formulated, tested, and used by Earth ships.
By the third series, this sequence had been altered. First, warp drive. Second, war. By the fourth series, the sequence is largely missing.

------------------

takeoffs are optional; landings are mandatory
 

Speed:
As I understand it, although a sector is 20 ly across, Sol System is not necessarily dead center of its 20 ly cube. Therefore The Botany Bay could have reached the next sector in less than 10 ly at a fraction of c in 200 years.

Spaceframe:
Simply from looking at the vessel, one can tell that there is a central streamlined core (capable of being launched from Earth via conventional or nuclear rockets), as well as strap-on cargo or fuel pods surrounding the core.

Dating:
I'm not a trivia freak regarding quotes, but was there any mention of "our records are incomplete (or fragmented)? Or am I misremembering another episode? If the records are not exact, there is further room for conjecture.

Writing:
In multiple instances when trying to explain contradictions in the show, one must occassionally pare it down to 'bad writing'. In THIS case, the fans are free to come up with an IMPROVED CANON (so it would weem to me).

------------------
Faster than light - no left or right.
 

Moving the Eugenics War is a rather drastic action. I'd prefer something more subtle....

Some historians see the period 1914 (start of WWI) to 1989 (end of Cold War) as one long period of conflict. If 23rd and 24th century historians see the later 20th,m early 21st centuries in the same way then the Eugenics War and WWIII can be 60 years apart and still both be the last global war on Earth.

(Or think of the way that parts of WWII are known by different names: the Pacific War springs to mind. If the Eugenics War was just a name for one portion of a longer conflict then we reach the same result as above.)

Kanh's empire was in Asia. We've never visited Asia in a time travel story. It would be easy for the war to have started there in the 1990s and continued for years, moving out of the Eugenics War phase once the supermen were defeated. As the war drags on it has a negative influence on the world economy leading to the situation seen in that DS9 episode with the Bell Riots. Space exploration still continues, maybe some nations are looking for additional resources or somewhere safe to move an elite portion of their population. Somewhere in all this Colonel Green get's to perform his atrocity. Eventually things get desperate and someone starts throwing nukes around. This leads us to First Contact. Obviously the unification of Earth takes some time and it's still possible for some areas to be in a state of anarchy in 2079 (Encounter at Farpoint's post atomic horror).

Obviously there are a few dialogue references that don't fit the above. But the broad outline works.

As for my point 2. Kirk mistook the DY-100 for a DY-500, a later model, maybe he had the DY-500 date fixed in his mind. Or maybe Kirk is just bad with numbers. ;-) Kahn? He either beelieved Kirk and never found out the truth (unlikely, whats her face would have told him) or he was barking mad and couldn't count straight either. It's not really important.

The Botany Bay's speed could have been much higher if Kahn had installed some sort of high sub-light drive that only the genetic supermen knew about. When they left the secret was lost to Earth technology.

Detecting a small, drifting, sublight object in interstellar space would be very difficult. It's possible the the Botany Bay was only 10ly from Earth when discovered.

Personally I see no need to make major changes to the timeline or to give the Botany Bay an FTL drive.

------------------
-->Identity Crisis<--

In essence the genocides, ethnic cleansing, tribal battles, etc. are all attempts to control whose genes get to continue.

Also there is a growing belief that we are creating two classes of people - developed world folks and third world folks. With better nutrition the "developed" world people tend to be healthier (and perhaps even taller), also have access to better education and technology. (I don't see third world members on this BBS)

Given the perspective of 400 years they may describe the entire 20th and 21st centuries as a long series of wars, and the people that live during them as savages.

------------------
TK

------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 6.27 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with four eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
****
"The candidate who slimed John McCain in the primaries and smeared Al Gore in the general election is now the president who pledges to elevate the nation's tone and bring civility to our discorse. Kind of like Michael Corleone brought peace to the mob by killing the heads of the other four families."
--Paul Begala, Is Our Children Learning?

------------------
Here lies a toppled god,
His turnip not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and a tall one.

-Tleilaxu Epigram

[This message has been edited by Nimrod (edited March 02, 2001).]
 

Though if that's going to be our definition of the Eugenics war, we're going to need to stretch its beginnings back, oh, a billion years or so.

------------------
I will shout until they know what I mean.
--
Neutral Milk Hotel
****
Read three (three!) chapters of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Then, go insane!

I mean, who said the war even took place in North America? It's possible, in the Trek timeline, the US doesn't get involved in foreign affairs, or even if it did, all the fighting was in Asia, Africa, and Western Europe. I mean, World War II didn't take place in North or South America except for Pearl Harbor, and yet America was still full in the war effort. The same could be done for the Eugenics War.

------------------
"No, 3 & 6 are mandatory, so you only have to do them if you want"

Alex, fellow classmate, trying to explain an assignment (2/2/01)

 

------------------
Here lies a toppled god,
His turnip not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and a tall one.

-Tleilaxu Epigram

------------------

takeoffs are optional; landings are mandatory
 

------------------
We are the Borg. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.
"Wowsers!"
-Star Trek: Series ?: "A Pair o' Docs, part II"
 

I meant Twentieth-century. Sorry

Er ... the historians "recaliberated" the years, yeah, that's it.

------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 6.27 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with four eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
****
"The candidate who slimed John McCain in the primaries and smeared Al Gore in the general election is now the president who pledges to elevate the nation's tone and bring civility to our discorse. Kind of like Michael Corleone brought peace to the mob by killing the heads of the other four families."
--Paul Begala, Is Our Children Learning?

------------------
"And Mojo was hurt and I would have kissed his little boo boo but then I realized he was a BAD monkey so I KICKED HIM IN HIS FACE!"
-Bubbles
 

------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 6.27 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with four eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
****
"The candidate who slimed John McCain in the primaries and smeared Al Gore in the general election is now the president who pledges to elevate the nation's tone and bring civility to our discorse. Kind of like Michael Corleone brought peace to the mob by killing the heads of the other four families."
--Paul Begala, Is Our Children Learning?

--Jonah

------------------
"It's obvious I'm dealing with a moron..."

--Col. Edwards, ROBOTECH

------------------
Disclaimer:
"All references to vices and of the supernatural contained in this game are for entertainment purposes only. _Over_The_Edge_ does not promote satanisim, belief in magic, drug use, violence, sexual deviation, body piercing, cynical attitudes toward the government, freedom of expression, or any other action or belief not condoned by the authorities."
- `OverTheEdge'
 

Space Seed and TWOK do present a few confusing lines of dialouge about the time frame of TOS and the Eugenics Wars. We do know:

1. Kirk initially thinks the BB was from a later time period than it actually turned out to be.

2. Spock believes it to be much older but has no evidence (other than memory) to back it up.

3. Kirk tells Kahn in the BB that he has been sleeping for about two centuries they think. This conversation occurs before any research into the ship or its crew has taken place. Thus, both the identity of Kahn and the exact date of launch for the BB are unknown.

4. After some research, the identity of Kahn and his ship are discovered. Also the approximate date of launch is known. The Eugenics Wars are positively placed in the 1990's.

5. In the begining of TWOK, it is postitively revealed that Kirk's time frame is the 23rd century. This is shown with the words "In the 23rd century" as the opening score and credits end and an instant before the Kobayashi Maru sequence begins.

6.Kahn states that "On earth, two hundred years ago....I was a prince". Kahn knows the date (he read the Enterprise tech manuals).

7. Kahn states that the BB was "...lost in space from the year 1996..." in TWOK. This is a deliberate statement and he doesn't act like he may have misspoke.

My theory is thus:

Kirk sees the BB on screen and belives it to be from the mid-21st century. Spock doesn't convince him otherwise since he has not done any research yet. Kirk tells Kahn "two centuries" because he is still thinking about that time frame for the BB.

Later, research postively identifies Kahn and his ship. The time period of the 1990's is stated as the era of the Eugenics Wars and Kahn's rise and fall. Also, in TWOK, Kahn definitely says his ship was from the year 1996. THIS IS CANON FACT AND CANNOT BE DISMISSED. If Spock states that the Eugenics Wars were the last global war on earth but First Contact shows WWIII in the 2060's, then either the information presented in First Contact is incorrect or Spock made a mistake. TOS came first and any continuity issues with later shows are errors committed by the writers of those later series. Just look at Voyager and their continuity problems.

Kirk is operating in the 23rd century as TWOK indicates. The last bit of the puzzle is why did Kahn state "two hundred years ago" when talking to Chekov and Trerrell? Was he perhaps being sarcastic as he remembered what Kirk told him on the BB in Space Seed? Or did he misspeak and decline to correct himself because it didn't really matter? Or was he so insane that he didn't know what century he was in anymore (highly unlikely)? Or did a writer screw up and put in two hundred years without thinking? My bet is the writer screw up.

In any case, the evidence places him, the Botany Bay, and the Eugenics wars on earth during the 1990's. Kirk, Spock, and Kahn all make this assertation at some point. It is canon fact and must be accepted.

Also, TWOK firmly places Kirk and Co in the 23rd century even before the film starts so 200 years ago is definitely wrong. In another TOS episode, the ship, USS Valliant was lost 200 years before. If TOS was set in the 2190's, that would give us warp drive in the 1990's. Highly unlikely.

As for the distance the BB traveled:

Since the ship drifted for two hundred seventy years (1996-2266) at perhaps a good percentage of the speed of light, it is perfectly logical that it would go at least ten or twenty light years. At various percentages it would travel:

50% @ 270 yrs.......135 LY
40% @ 270 yrs.......108 LY
30% @ 270 yrs.......81 LY
20% @ 270 yrs.......54 LY
10% @ 270 yrs.......27 LY
5% @ 270 yrs.......13.5 LY

------------------
Hunting is a way of life, and mine would have been infinitely poorer without it.

[This message has been edited by Omega _Glory (edited March 06, 2001).]
 

Naturally, Khan would only have been asleep for the subjective duration of his journey, not for the whole objective 270 years. Thus, for him, 1996 in the 2280s would have been 200 years ago, even if it was about 290 years ago for Chekov and Terrell.

Anybody bother to calculate the percentage of lightspeed needed to change 270 years into 249 or less for the rounding-down? I think impulse propulsion in Khan's time could have been at least half as good as "today", so the acceleration phase would have taken a couple of weeks or months at most, giving a constant-speed journey for all practical purposes. Of course, Khan would then need inertial dampeners. But he did seem to have onboard gravity, so IDF isn't so unlikely.

Timo Saloniemi
 

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-->Identity Crisis<--

So how long would it take for Kirk to sail from Earth to Mutara in ST2? Apparently, he was still at impulse when receiving the emergency call from Drs Marcus - so in between getting that signal and encountering Khan (which he apparently did within impulse range of Mutara), he traversed 100 ly. At, say, warp 12, TOS scale (or any near-Okudaic scale), that would take three weeks... Hum-te-dum. Perhaps making Khan highly relativistic is not such a good idea after all.

Then again, if Kirk really was weeks away from home, it would make so much more sense for him to fight his battles alone.

And even if we didn't see the ship go to warp between the "Captain's discretion/Helsman may indulge himself" command and the receiving of the emergency call, there is no explicit indication that the ship did NOT go to warp, and possibly spend several days or weeks at it. A warp training cruise would be reasonable when the cadets were aboard a warp-capable vessel.

What goes more strongly against the theory that Mutara is 100 ly away is how fast the heroes seemed to reach it in ST3. Then again, who's to really say that that journey didn't take several weeks as well?

Timo Saloniemi
 

Hmm...

--Jonah

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"It's obvious I'm dealing with a moron..."

--Col. Edwards, ROBOTECH

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Faster than light - no left or right.
 

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When you're in the Sol system, come visit the Starfleet Museum

Or then it's shorthand for X Ceti Alpha, where X is a Greek letter of your choice: a designation created when X Ceti turned out to be two stars obscured by each other (but nowhere near each other), and there became a need to distinguish between them when we got our first peek behind the forward one. (What is the nearest star in Cetus, btw?)

Something weird is going on with those TOS star names anyway, since so many of them consist of just a Greek letter and a numeral, with no reference to a constellation.

220 ly is a rather excessive distance for Okudaic TOS speeds - but then again, Kirk in "This Side of Paradise" did visit OMICRON Ceti, which is about as distant as Alpha. And then there are of course all those references to Kirk going to Canopus or Rigel or other even more distant locations within weeks or at most months.

Timo Saloniemi