Timo:
quote:
A scene from Wolf 359 could with full justification be reproduced by giving us a fuzzy screencap from a videotape, and then slapping graphics over it that would specify this as a "gun camera shot", or something taken by a recording drone amidst the battle's heavy EM interference and subspace shockwaves and whatnot.Similarly, a key live-action event could be presented as a snapshot taken by an away team's tricorder-wielding Ensign Expendable, just when he was hit by that disruptor beam. Or then he had to take it covertly through some vegetation, from a distance. Surely the reduced quality of the image could be forgiven.
Here's a possibility that should not be overlooked when making use of all that accumulated wealth of Trek visual records.
Shik:
quote:
:::nods in agreement::: That's absolutely right, Timo. In fact, a lot of times these items come from the strangest sources. Imagine if you will a shot of a scorched, somewhat shredded, & ice-crystalized section of photo of Ben & Jennifer Sisko at Gilgo Beach; the caption in true NG style reads: "'Some times the hardest part of doing this,' says salvage worker Thon Lorit, 'is finding the small things. It affects everyone in ways you just can't describe.' A full Betazoid, Thon says that he sometimes is overwhelmed by the raw emotions of the rest of the work crew when they find a fragment of a person's life floating among the wreckage. Here, at left, a happy moment captured forever shows the scars of horror."
quote:
Mojo: I was planning to email this to you before posting it here in an effort to promote
the idea first, but...yeah. No matter.You've discussed your plans an concepts for "Unseen Frontier" here many times.
Throughout it all, you've kept mentioning a variant or the same phrase: "The events we
know as seen through something like National Geographic." This line is what has really
stuck with me.Like most of the people here I'm sure, I've grown up reading NG all my life. I don't really
look at it that often nowadays due to fiduciary concerns, but when I do, the images are
always what grab me, even if they concern an article I'm not particularly interested in.
I've had the good fortune to meet and talk lengthily with many NG photographers, both
staff and freelance, and so the stories they have to tell are stuck in my mind as well.One of the reasons NG is held in such high regard is because it excels at its primary goal:
to bring understanding of the world around us home to the average person. Whether it be
through funding expeditions to the Weddell Sea and the Kalahari or simply sending a field
reporter to live in Brussels or Ville De Qu�bec for three months, the experiences and
stories of other places are brought to us in a short, hardhitting and striking form. Many
of us on this forum are naval history fans; who among us can forget the late 1985 issue
of NG in which Bob Ballard published his first mosaic images of Titanic? I was ten years
old and they still take my breath away. I remember leafing through old issues with
articles about the circumnavigation and later polar voyage of the Nautilus. I remember
seeing the shots of Robert Falcon Scott's final fateful encampment in Antarctica. I've
seen underwater shots of black smokers and aerial images of a barren glacier with three
small dots on it--a Norwegian scaling team.These are the same things that should be captured in "Unseen Frontier," the same
breathtaking feel. Some of this can come from ships, yes, but let the word "unseen" by
the guide. We've seen Wolf 359; what about the aftermath, the cleanup effort? Was
there one, or is it now like the Arizona memorial? The comings and goings of a busy
spaceport; all DS9 has shown us is a few floating vessels--nothing like a real harbor. Are
there festivities for Federation Day like Independence Day? Did they have something like
OpSail on the Federation's 200th birthday in 2361?But the Trek galaxy--like the real world--is more than just starships. There's people.
Legends. Heroes. Cultures. So many unknowns. Celebrations after the end of a war,
whether it be the Dominion War, Cardassian Wars, Romulan Wars. The memorial service
for James T. Kirk in late 2293. Someone suggested the signing of the First Khitomer
Accords. There's interstellar phenomena, natural wonders of black holes and pulsars and
nebulae. These are all things that the average Federation citizen wouldn't know about.
Even other worlds in and out of the Federation: Betazed, Andor, Tellar. Trill's oceans
were said to be purple in a DS9 episode; who knows from purple water?"Omnipotent observation" is fine for calendars; there it's not expected. For "Unseen
Frontier," as a reader, I'd like it to be more first-person. I'd like to feel that there was a
person there who saw this perfect image and captured it so that others may share and
revel in its power, its beauty, its sense of amazement. That sense of humanity is what
would set this project apart from all others. (Indeed, an idea has just hit me on a way to
help accomplish that feel. Often in NG itself and most definitely in its compilation tomes,
there are comments from photographers and staff on the power of the imagery--what
they felt when they saw the sight, how they decided to choose that particular one, how
that perfect combination just happened to come together at the right moment.
Comments like that--not just from humans, but others--would definitely help with the
touch.)I encourage you to take all of the above to heart. Following this train of thought, this
overall feeling and setting will almost guarantee that the book will reach beyond the
hardcore audience that the more recent offerings have pandered to. I know for a fact
that this is something many friends would be overawed at and by, not so much because
it's Trek, but because of what it could BE. They are not the kind of people to purcashe
technical manuals and don't care if a bird-of-prey has been rescaled or not. They are the
"casual fans," the one who enjoy the stories and imagery, the ones who've been left in
the lurch. This is a chance to reconcile the two ends of the markets in a most spectacular
way.I, like others here have in the past, formally offer my help, advice, and knowledge on
this project, and I would consider it a great honor to take part in such an endeavor from
such an early stage. But let us lay the groundwork for reason and rationality here, at the
beginning, so that later on we can progress smoothly.
[ November 09, 2001: Message edited by: AndrewR ]
And now that I think about it, how about setting it during the Movie-era, with Constitutions and Mirandas and Oberths and Excelsiors?
[ November 09, 2001: Message edited by: The359 ]
It would make a good tie in to TMP, where we see an orbital office complex for the yard, nearing completion. You could say that the entire facility was upgraded in the 2270s, and that the big mushroom spacedock was the first of its kind.
It would also be interesting to see the moon as it is in the 23 or 24th century as described in ST:FC
[ November 09, 2001: Message edited by: Reverend ]
Mark
I always imagined a scene with a 5-ish year old child watching from his home in one of the orbital habitats as the Breens attacked Earth, with a Defiant swooping gracefully close past his field of view to engage the attackers. The reflection of the little boy's face on the window would be "I'm gonna join Starfleet when I grow up".
Hell of a Starfleet Academy recruiting poster.
Something involving Starfleet infantry would be nice, too. Maybe something Vietnam or Iwo Jima like, with Marines disembarking from a combat hopper. Of course, that would require CG people. 
[ November 09, 2001: Message edited by: David Templar ]
Starfleet may take on the role of the military, but I imagine they'd rather play up the whole "Space, the final frontier ..." aspect. You know ... exploration.
quote:
with Marines disembarking from a combat hopper. Of course, that would require CG people
First you'd need a design and the one I came up with appears to be just a little too tricky for those 3-D folks...
[ November 09, 2001: Message edited by: Shik ]
On a more constructive note:
Mojo, how about solving the mystery of how the Phoenix returned to Earth after Cochrane's flight?
Or, on a similar note, a shot of the Smithsonian in the 24th century (with the Phoenix and perhaps some other space goodies) in it, or alternately the mentioned-but-unseen "Fleet Museum"?
[ November 09, 2001: Message edited by: The_Tom ]
quote:
B]Or, on a similar note, a shot of the Smithsonian in the 24th century (with the Phoenix and perhaps some other space goodies) in it, or alternately the mentioned-but-unseen "Fleet Museum"?[/B]
Now that is an excelent idea, perhaps the fleet museum is the orbital wing of smithsonian, showing exibits that are too large to be displayed on the surface.
Aside from that, a vacume is a great perserver.
It would be great to see the Phoenix side by side with other small spacecraft like say...the unused luna lander aquarius, Friendship 2 (if there is a number 1 then logically there is a second one too), A section of Aries III or V, perhaps a surviving module of the ISS, the NCC-1701's Gallileo shuttlecraft (did that one survive? I forget). There are alot of really interesting possiblities with that one and a great potential for interesting backstories
"this golden plate belonged tothe early earth space probe, pionner 11...it was discovered onboard a deralict pakled vessle near the klingon border, they had welded it to the hull to plug a breach.."
Mark
Tellar?
Quo'nos (we never did see much of it)
Alpha Centauri
Memory Alpha (in the 24th century)
Narandra III? (A still taken from the surface by a klingon civilian as the battle wages above the clouds...just as the E-C' warpcore breached, or a STIIIish shot with the hull burning up)
[ November 09, 2001: Message edited by: Reverend ]
[ November 09, 2001: Message edited by: Reverend ]
Are you planning to do scences from the animated series? Or does Paramount want to ignore this series some more? Also, are you going to design ships that have been mentioned but not seen? Can you use ships in other liscenced works, such as those by Franz Joseph?
On a more personal note 
, if you need some pre-TOS ship designs, I have a mess of them that you could use: http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/sfmuseum/index.htm
Well, you get the picture, the rare starships almost never seen before
I'd like to see... 
Ships/stations/places from TOS and perhaps even TAS. What about a 24th century articles on the Guardian of Forever, the cloudcities of Ardana. Perhaps a view of some DY-100s in orbit of Earth, or even docked to the ISS. You could design your own Earth-Saturn probe, from "Tomorrow is Yesterday".
Or what about a blurry shot of the S.S. Valiant's last moments near the galactic barrier. A visualisation of a Denevan parasite infection on one of the other planets mentioned in "Operation: Annihilate!", or a humankinds first steps on Mars and the foundation of the Martian Colonies.
Daedalus ships being constructed, or a Daedalus on a mission.
Another nice touch would be a CGI model of the original 1701, as seen in the pilots. Bring back the spikes, the unlit ramscoops, the large bridge dome and the black strips! Maybe for a visualisation of the launch of the 1701 in 2245?
You know what also would be cool? Some shots of the aquashuttle or the scouter gig from "The Ambergris Element" (TAS).
I would appreciate some 'screentime' for the very much unseen aliens from the movies, like the Saurians or the Betelgeusians.
I agree with Masao (or who said it?) that the ships from the Star Fleet TM are a nice addition.
And that idea of picturing a busy starbase appeals to me as well. All kinds of unseen freightery looking ships, workbees, travel pods, runabouts, shuttles and the occasional major Starfleet ship all floating around one of those large 'mushrooms'. Just imagine...
::Wakes up from fanboy mode::
Whatever you choose to do, this book definately has the potential for being one of the coolest books on Trek .
As for planets... I'd have to say
Trill
Betazed
and perhaps even the raising of Cardassia Prime or a view out those Windows that Vedek Winn and Minister Jaro Esa were infront of during "The Circle". Blue skies and those wierd-ass monastary buildings.
Elaysia - that planet that Ensign Melora Pazlar was from - where they have low gravity would be awesome too.
The Borg assimilating the sex planet from "Justice" TNG season 1! LOL! I think that's were the Borg Queen came from ;o)
The Jarada!! (or maybe just a ship?)
".
The interior of the largest temple on Bajor. They always seemed vaguely Catholic in organization, so I'm wagering they've got their version of St. Peter's there somewhere. Set the camera down in the, uh, Bajoran equivalant of pews, and look up. Religious iconography always makes for fun photographs. For drama's sake, half the cathedral could be covered in scaffolding, with a caption describing how it was nearly destroyed during the Occupation, and how rebuilding it was the first task Bajor undertook once the Cardassian's withdrew.
Of course, I can't comment on exactly what will and will not be in the final publication, but I'm aiming to make it as exciting as possible.
Also, keep in mind that 'Unseen Frontier' mostly refers to imagery we haven't seen before on the show, not necessarily *events* we haven't seen.
Some chapters will be expansions on what was aired, some will be all-new.
The dimensions of the book are the same as the Star Trek ACTION book released a few years ago, something like 9.5 X 10.5.
--The Gratitude Festival & the Ha'mara Festival as they take place on Bajor.
--a baseball game on Cestus III between the Pike City Pioneers &....I dunno, the Niners? Or as many that are left. Remmember, Kasidy's brother lives there.
--various alien worlds including Bynaus (home of the Bynars), Pacifica (a pelagic planet perhaps?), & the aforementioned Trill.
Mark
Some newbies might get confused and thing we're having an orgy...
Please sir, may we see some more Mars?
A Martian city? A Federation R&D facility on the surface? Can we please reconcile the Mars we've seen with a terraformed or partially terraformed Mars? I don't recall what part of the surface was shown in 'Relativity', but we could reconcile it as if it were the Tharsis region, which is high enough in elevation that it would be a sort of preserve.
To summarize what I would like to see: Mars Mars Mars Mars Mars!!! But NOT Utopia Planitia!
Total Recall
Mission to Mars
Red Planet
Ghosts of Mars
Am I forgetting any? 
I mentioned before about seeing different parts of ships from different angles, i.e. peering out a large window and seeing another part of the ship or even some of those windows on DS9, you notice that we NEVER saw any of the Docking rings or pylons outside anyones quarters on the habitat ring!?!
Also, speaking of different things we haven't seen on ships... the CETATION SECTIONS on the E-D... the WHALES and the DOLPHINS are active crew members... they aid in navigation... I'd love to see the big tanks... and the've gotta have windows. I wonder if they're allowed to use the holodeck?
The arboretum on the E-D - those big blue windows or the flight deck on either the E-E or the Voyager!
Wasn't there also a Venus station mentioned!?! Or some more of Starbase 12 seen in "The Die Is Cast" and "Court Martial"
quote:
WHALES and the DOLPHINS are active crew members... they aid in navigation...
They do? Uh ... this isn't seaQuest, DSV.
And yes, I noticed that about the DS9 windows, too. Maybe the living quarters on the top and bottom most levels of the habitat look "over" the docking ring? And then, of course, the ones we've seen (in addition to being on the top or bottom levels) also don't face a pylon, or the Core.
"Uh ... this isn't seaQuest, DSV."
Read the TNGTM. And refer to the episode where someone (Geordi or Riker) makes some comment to the effect of "You gotta see the whales..." (or was it the dolphins?).
"Gee, I wanna be a navigator!" "No, sorry, we got more then enough blue whales enlisting this semester."
"Vhere is your Nawigator!?!"
"Ahhh well we use whales for that now"
"uh"
"I feel like shit, Commander..."
"Let me TELL you about feeling like shit, OK? I've had an EEL in my ear, been fried by Nomad, had my chick killed by a planet-running computer, had ANOTHER chick become a space hippie, been arrested by 20th-century American military authorities, fallen off the flight deck of an aircraft carrier, almost operated on AND KILLED by medics in that same time period, been scared half to death by corpses...but then, that kept me from getting old....so don't tell ME about feeling like shit!"
:::blinks::: "You're a Russian Jew, aren't you."
2) Chekov never had his 'chick' killed by a planet running computer.
3) Scotty was fried by Nomad, not Chekov. However, Chekov got lightly toasted by V'Ger, but not fried.
quote:
Originally posted by Veers:
Let me guess: your favorite movies are, as follows:Total Recall
Mission to Mars
Red Planet
Ghosts of MarsAm I forgetting any?
Total Recall was OK, though Mars was much too red. Mission to Mars sucked balls. I haven't worked up enough of a stomach to sit through Red Planet without puking yet. I refuse to acknowledge Gosts of Mars even exists...
And the Bradbury Chronicles were cool except for the first part where they tried to explain why Viking didn't find a Martian city ("If it had looked behind it..." )
And the Mars Trilogy rocks. Can't wait for James Cameron to put that sucker on film...
[ November 19, 2001: Message edited by: OnToMars ]
As for the other one: Chick killed, sterilized, raped by a computer & knocked up ala Julie Christie in "Demon Seed"...whatever. On a similar note: Nomad, V'Ger, your mom...it's all the same.
quote:
YOU!!.....need to stop your chronic marsturbation & cease your infernal incessant jizzing all over the walls, lest I be inclined to have you lick it all up.
I don't think I've ever heard Shakespeare quoted more eloquently before in my life...
Who would they get to play everyone though? And would they have OLDER actors to play youthful but +150 year-olds!?!
John, Frank, Maya, Nadia, Ann, Peter, Nirgal, Jackie, Hiroko!?!?!?!
I think someone mentioned the Smithsonian Orbital Annex earlier...what of other "institutes o' importance?" The Vulcan Science Academy, the Daystrom Institute, etc.
Is there a "Federation Red Cross?" Do they do relief work on Cardassia? What about a Peace Corps?
What do concerts look like in the 22nd, 23rd, & 24th centuries? Is there still places like Tanglewood, or are there neat-azz rock concerts like Sharon Apple's show in "Macross Plus?" Are missile fields on the "Register of Historic Earth Places?"
Cool shit.
Oooh, another idea, Mojo: the landing of the first Martian colony(ies); featuring everybody's favorite multigenerational famous family; the Picards.
[ November 22, 2001: Message edited by: pIn'a' Sov ]
quote:
For institutes, don't forget the first, The American Continent Institute!
of course, after years of getting old on Talos, Dr. Haskins should have called it the American Incontinent Institute
BA-DOOM-BOOM!
chhhhhhh!
Actually, I've been VERY hard at work finishing up the 2003 Ships of the Line calendar. I may end up eating these words (you lot are a tough bunch to please) but I do believe it is the best one by far. The images are turning out just spectacularly and I think the concept is working better than planned.
Anyone who had a beef with the 'artistic' concept of the 2002 edition will be pleased to know that we're back to nice, horizontal shots of full-screen ships again.
However, I will tease you all and say there's not a SINGLE shot of a ship in space :-)
Mojo
Ok, folks, I need your help doing research for the UNSEEN FRONTIER book. I'm currently hard at work on the outline, and YOU can have an impact on it! Have your voice heard and your wishes granted!
The toughest chapter for me to outline is THE DOMINION WAR. Partly because it is such a complex beast, but mostly because - and don't hate me for this - I haven't seen every DS9 episode a dozen times.
This weekend I am going to sit down with a pile of DS9 tapes and a LOT of cheese doodles and figure out just what the hell to do with this chapter.
How can you help, I hear y'all murmuring?
Well, I'd love for each and every one of you to post what YOU think the most important dozen-or-so episodes are in the Dominion War saga. The episodes that tell the meat of the story and feature the all-important ACTION that we want to see in this book!
Also, feel free to list major events (either seen on the show or NOT seen) that you'd like to see covered in the book. Obviously I'm looking for moments that are important to the story but also visually compelling. The Breen attack on San Francisco and the big battle in 'Sacrafice of Angels' are examples.
And don't bother nitpicking each other's posts - I want your personal, individual opinions. My job is to consider all the options and choices and pick what I think works best.
So rev up your keyboards, lend a hand and help make this the best Trek book ever.
Mojo
Btw, Mojo, thanks for checking your messages I actually had your emailadress, but that didn�t work, wierd, it worked when I sent you that pic of the klingon ship from "All good things.." Btw, I have better caps now...
- Death of the Defiant
- Beginning of battle in "Sacrifice of Angels"
- Arrival of the Klingons in "Sacrifice of Angels"
- Breen Attack on San Francisco
- Dominion ships last stand at Cardassia Prime
- Orbital bombardment of Cardassia Prime
- Cardassia after the bombardment
- Federation Fleet destroying Dominion Shipyard in "Call to Arms"
- The 7th Fleet getting it's ass whooped in "A Time to Stand"
- Battle of Betazed
Even the ones we DID see on TV would be nice to see in a more artistic portrayal.
During "Sacrifice Of Angels," there was a hole unseen part of the battle after Defiant shot through the ranks.
The attack on the Torros III Dominion shipyard that Sisko mentioned at the end of "Call To Arms."
The actual destruction of the Honshu by Cardassian attack fighters from "Waltz."
I'm more of a "little thing" person though. I want to see LT Vilix'pran's budlings. I want to see stuff from the Klingon Conflict of 2372-73. There's lots of little "holding action" battles that were one-line mentions from the Dominion War Those would work, too.
quote:
Originally posted by Mojo:
A CALL TO ARMS! MOJO NEEDS *YOU*
Wow . . . this is the coolest thing I've ever seen. I'm the new guy asking: 'Where were these forums all my life?' :-D haha
I've got to agree with the fellow who mentioned "In the Pale Moonlight" . . . and also a great deal of "Siege of AR-558". Not only is there ground combat galore, but you also get to see the grittier, tough-as-nails "counselors be damned" side of the fleet.
G2k
But a cozen episodes is almost too *few* to really encapsulate a war which is described over 52 episodes, which itself only covers the adventures of a group of twenty or so people in a war that had millions of players. Not to mention the three years of buildup to the war itself that we saw. I'd recommend looking at the Dominion War with that sort of epic scale, since there's no way the DW was completely portrayed in the show.
Anyway, were I to recommend a dozen episodes, I'd probably choose the following. The first five episodes actually occur BEFORE the war, and portray points inthe buildup to it. I've also included interesting points covered in these episodes not actually SEEN in the show, but mentioned.
Also, for a pretty review of the show and another person's opinions of the war as a whole, I recommend going to Jammer's DS9 reviews site at http://www.st-hypertext.com/ . The exhaustive reviews there may help you get a better overall view of the War. I further suggest reading the related chapters of the "Deep Space Nine Companion" book for lots of behind the scenes stuff, conceptual art, and lots of ideas.
1) "The Jem'Haddar" (Season 2 Finale) - Details the real introduction of the Dominion after a year of rumours. We hear of the destruction of New Bajor, the first Bajoran colony in the Gamma Quadrant. We do see the destruction of the Galaxy-class USS Oddysey, in a spectacular battle.
2) "The Die is Cast" (Mid 3rd Seson) - The Romulans and Cardassians get together to destroy the Founders' Homeworld, and get clobbered. This is the second part of a two-parter, which leads to a number of threads involving captured Alpha Quadrant races stuck in a POW camp in the Gamma Quadrant.
3) "Paradise Lost" (Mid 4th Season) - Earth is brought under Martial Law as paranoia over shape-shifters infiltrating the Federation hits a peak. Also the seond part of another two-parter, it deatils what Earth is sorta like in a crisis, or at least New Orleans and San Fransico anyway.
4) "The Quickening" (Late 4th Season) - Dr. Bashir tries to save a planet whose people were purposely inflicted with a terrible disease by the Dominion. Not in the War per se, but it really shows the human(oid) side of people suffering at the hands of the Dominion.
5) "Nor the Battle to the Strong" (Early 5th Season) - Jake, seeking to find out about "courage under fire", goes with Bashir to a medial ourpost under attack by Klingons. This is not a key episode, but it really shows the whole "War is Hell" stuff without showing much fighting.
6) "The Sacrifice of Angels" (Early 6th Season) - Duh.
7) "In the Pale Moonlight" (Mid 6th Season) - Sisko and Garak conspire to bring the Romulans into the War, at the expense of the typical Federation morals we love so much. This is a fairly low-brow character epsiode that is mostly "behind the scenes", but it's a key turning point in the war. We never really saw much of the Romulans fighting in the War alone, but we know they made numerous actions without the help of the Klingons or the Federation.
8) "Shadows and Symbols" (Early 7th Season) - While a soul-searching Sisko travels with his family to the Desert planet Tyree to find an orb and reopen the wormhole, Kira leads a bunch of Bajoran ships in a standoff against the superior Romulan fleet who've armed an "unarmed" hospital moon in Bajoran space. Cool stuff, especially with the standoff.
9) "The Siege of AR-558" (Mid 7th Season) - Sisko and crew defend a captured Dominion communications array, helping out the Federation garrison that's been under constant attack for five months. Some real character drama there, plus the very rarely seen Federation ground combat we've really been missing.
10) "Inter Arma Einem Silent Leges" (Mid 7th Season) - Bashir is recuited by the shady Section 31 to spy on the Romulans at a medical conference on their homeworld. Yummy cloak & dagger fun, plus a real look into the Romulan side of the war.
11) "The Changing Face of Evil" (Late 7th Season) - After the Breen allies of the Dominion lauch a sneak attack on Earth, the Federation-led Alliance returns the favour in the Chin'toka system, only to have their butts kicked by Breen distruption technology. Plenty of cool space battles are seen here, including the destruction of the Defiant. Note to Mojo: WE REALLY WANT TO SEE THE BREEN ATTACKING EARTH, AND/OR THE AFTERMATH THEREOF.
12) "That You Leave Behind" (Series Finale) - The Dominion War climaxes with a ginormous battle, followed by a standoff in Cardassian orbit while Odo goes down to end it once and for all. There's unseen action everywhere in the finale, from Cardassians fighting in the streets, to the space battles, to the Founders nuking whole Cardie cities in retaliation. Plus there's the final showdown between Dukat and Sisko on Bajor.
There you have it. Also, I'll throw in a list of cool "Original Series & Movies" moments that could be described in the book:
-The first signing of the Khitomer Accords ("Star Trek VI") - We see what Khitomer looks like close up, insdie and out of its main hall.
-The alien probe in orbit of Earth ("Star Trek IV") - Probe over earth, powerless Spacedock and Excelsior. Beautiful.
-The almost beginning of Klingon-Federation war over Organia ("Errand of Mercy" - Late 1st season TOS) - We never say a fleet of old Connies (and support ships) almost go to war against a bunch of old Klingon ships. We would love to.
-The TOS Enterprise and damaged USS Constellation vs. the planet eater ("The Doomsday Machine" - Early 2nd season TOS) - Damaged Connies vs a giant ice cream cone. What more do you need?
Thanks for letting us help out, Mojo!
Mark
[ November 27, 2001: Message edited by: Mark Nguyen ]
Personally I'd like to see a little bit of the aftermath of the war and some of the missions that were mentioned but never seen.
Relif ships arriving at Cardassia.
The transfer of starfleet hospital ships to the Romulans (Possibly Olympic-Class)
The Defiant destroying the Dominion sensor platform on the other side of the argus cluster.
The Cairo being attacked near the Neutral zone.
The bits of "Opperation Return" that we never saw..."The Magellan & The Venture are in too tight..." Images of the Venture and the Centaur (a Captain Reynolds was mentioned in the battle) breaking through the Dominion lines...
Heres an idea, you could include a little side story about the rescue or the return of the Sarajevo from the Gamma Quadrant.
If you remember this was one of the ships mentioned in "Purgatory's Shadow" as being lost in the Gamma quadrant, supposedly destroyed by the Dominion. Then in the next season we see a casualty report with "U.S.S. Sarajevo NCC-38529" written on it...
This may have been an oversite (or not) by the art department but it has the potential for a good story, sort of a "Voyager in the gamma quadrant" with the ship returning home after spending a couple of years running from Dominion forces on the other side of the galaxy...
[ November 27, 2001: Message edited by: Sol System ]
quote:
and don't hate me for this - I haven't seen every DS9 episode a dozen times.
Hey don't worry about it. We're all glad your doing it. (Of course the Dominion War could be it's own book. Just imagine it, lots of ship shots, big chapters on battles with those little maps with the numbers indicating what happened where. ok i;ll get back to the point)
I agree with mark some of the episodes that you should watch are from before the war
1 "The Jem'hadar"
2 "Improbable cuase/The die is Cast" two parter
3 "The Ship" Sisko and crew recover a crashed Jem'Hadar attack ship and find out what happens to Jem'hadar who fail their gods.
4 "By Infernos Light" mostly for Gul Dukhat joining the Dominion.
5 "Call to Arms" The War finally begins
6 "The Sacrfice of Angels"
7 "In the Pale Moonlight" Really good episode.
8 "Tears of the Prophets" StarFleet Stirkes back!
9 "Image in the Sand"
10 "The Siege of Ar-558"
11 "Penumbra"
12 "THe changing face of Evil"
13 "What you leave behind"
preety much all the epsiodes form penumbra to waht you leave behind would be good.
As to battles the Destruction of the shipyards from "A Call to Arms".
The destruction of the 7th fleet.
The Dominion capturing Beatzed.
The Romulan "liberation" of Benzar
The Recapturing of the Kalandra sector(The Destiny and the 7th Fleet? are preparing to attack it in afterimage then in Once More Unot the Breach, an ep you could see if you wanted to see the Klingon view of the war, in which its suggest as a meeting place
The Battle of Earth
The Cardassian Resistances attack on the Rondac III cloning facilities
The Destruucation of the Cardassian Resistance
The Battle of Carassia prime.
I'd also like to see some of the victory celebrations from across the FKR alliance along with say impounded Jem'hadar ships or interned prisoners.They've already done treaty signing other wise i'd reckomed that (Did any bod else think that the treaty celbration was to small?)
I've of late been watching Season 1 and 2 better than season 6 and 7 in some instances...
Remember that there were some ties to the Dominion story line early on in the series...
this is just info to get discussion flowing/thoughts jumping - prollay not stuff for the book... or maybe!?!
Season 1
"Captive Pursuit" - Tosk and Hunters of Tosk, look VERY Dominion/Jem'Hadar-esque. At one time Ron Moore and/or Ira Behr were contemplating letting us see a Tosk as a Dominion pilot.
"Vortex" we see the first evidence of Odo's people in the form of a shape-shifting Key...
[we never see it again - I wonder if it returned to the link!?!]
Season 2
"Rules of Aquisition"
Quark and Pel find out about a 'power' in the Gamma Quadrant - who the Grand Nagus already has sketchy details on, called the Dominion. The Karemma are members of the Dominion.
"Sanctuary"
The Skreeans, a refugee race looking to settle on Bajor tell how their opressors were removed by the Dominion - who had attacked them (the opressors)
"The Alternate"
Again in the Gamma Quadrant the trail to Odo's race is travelled a little further with presence of a Changeling race's ruins and evidence of shape-shifting material.
"Shadowplay"
We find out that the creator of a Holographic community had come from a planet which had been taken over by the Dominion!
"The Jem'Hadar"
We finally meet the Jem'Hadar!
This was great how we got all these tid-bits along the way to "The Jem'Hadar" which totally blew me out of the water.
Do we know ANYTHING about the Klingons during the 150 year period between Archer and Kirk?
Has anything ever been said in the show? Does anyone know if any novels or other non-canon material have covered this?
I'm probably going to have very specific questions during the next few days as I hammer out the outline for the book. I'd love to be able to consider you guys my official 'help' button :-)
Mojo
As for Klingon stuff between Archer & Kirk, there's surprisingly little stuff. McCoy once said that first contact with the Klingons led to hideously disasterous results and decades of agression - though the events of "Broken Bow" seem to counter this statement. Mind you, first contact with the Klingons may have yet to lead to this aggression.
However, if there's anything to say about trying to map out Klingon history in that era, if there's one thing to stay away from is the forehead explanation thing. I've got a sneaky suspicion that this will be something that the Enterprise producers will address..
Mark
The important thing is that hostillities with the Federation will start in 2223 or thereabouts. This date was established by both "Day of the Dove" (TOS) and "Star Trek VI". You might want to keep in mind that most fandom sources prior to "Broken Bow" assumed that this was when the Klingons first met with humans. The hostillities will never escalate into a full war. However, that *almost* happened in "Errand of Mercy" (TOS) before the Organians intervened and artificially imposed a peace treaty.
Other than that, the events of TOS probably give us a good idea of the kind of hostillities that went on. In "Once More Unto the Breach" (DS9), we learn of the attack on the Federation outpost on Caleb IV, executed by Kor and Kang on the old, cloak-capable D-5 cruisers (supposedly the animated series version of the Klingon battlecruiser from TOS). This may be the period of TOS, or slightly before.
Feel free to make up stuff. Watch "Errand of Mercy", "Day of the Dove", "Trouble with Tribbles" of TOS, and "Blood Oath", "The Sword of Kahless", "Once More Unto the Breach" (DS9) for inspiration about Klingons of the TOS and pre-TOS era. The animated series might also be good to review if you have it.
[ December 04, 2001: Message edited by: Phelps ]
But having ONE ship out of FORTY limp away from the battle scene, and only when there is literally nothing to be done to stop the cube, to me seems just as poignant.
[ December 10, 2001: Message edited by: Ace ]
quote:
Ensign M. Tanner, USS Melbourne
"I'm not sure what class ship this is. I'm tired. I had too much ice cream after lunch.
Billy in engineering said he had a crush on me to Tom in astrotelemetry, but Sally in the
sensory said he has cooties"
quote:
Only a disasterous first contact around 2220 (since swept away by Enterprise)
[ December 10, 2001: Message edited by: The_Tom ]
[ December 11, 2001: Message edited by: OnToMars ]
quote:
If it was a Nebbie that picked up survivors, than it would offer the possibility of seeing the inside of the Main Shuttlebay for the first time, filled to capacity with dead, dying, and wounded.
[ December 11, 2001: Message edited by: Phelps ]
). So why would they worry about the technology afterwards, when the largest mess (probably) was Voyager getting home in the first place.
quote:
That wasn't condesending, that was plain old taking the piss.
quote:
It may have been because only half the model was properly completed, but I may not be remembering that part correctly
)
quote:
Originally posted by Mojo:
I imagine it would have to have something to do with cloaking devices.
quote:
Originally posted by Mojo:
Klingons over Organia? Already have a temp image of that :-)
! quote:
originally posted by Mojo: Re: Post-movie era Romulan ships: Well, I'm going to need SOMETHING to attack Narendra III now, aren't I?
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Nguyen:
All of 'em, I'd hope.
I admit that the dialogue indicates that Klingons *could* have been at W359. It's just that the graveyeard scene doesn't conclusively support it, and I'm fairly certain that the episode wasn't supposed to show it that way. The footage in "Unity" is of course stock footage reuse, which could have been from anywhere.
But if Klingon ships are to be present, I would like at least some passing explanation as to why we don't see 'em in the graveyeard or battle scenes. One reason was that there were so few of them in the first place - less than, say, five or so could be easily lost in the mess. That, or they simply were blown to unidentifyable chunks of scrap. This would make sense with the smaller ships like BoPs, as we didn't see many (if any) "small" (Miranda-sized) ships in the graveyard scene.
Also, if you included D7/K'tinga class ships in the mix, you'd get around the problem of why we didn't see any green-coloured scrap in the mix. Grey Klingon ships mix better with the carnage.
Mark
[ January 02, 2002: Message edited by: Mark Nguyen ]
quote:
Originally posted by MinutiaeMan:
One personal wish: I would LOVE to see a CGI version of the New Orleans Class thrown into the mix. The New Orleans-class USS Rutledge was mentioned as being a participant in the Klingon War in "Nor the Battle to the Strong," and so that would be a great occasion to toss in an image of every treknologist's favorite background starship.
quote:
The GCS was certainly not the first vessel of it's period. We already have evidence that the New Orleans was
around before the NX GCS was launched in 2353. All indications are that every GCS-like ship came before the GCS
itself. From the lowliest kitbash [Niagara, Challenger] to the more respectable kitbash [Cheyenne, Springfield
(without that lower pod if it turns out to be real), and New Orleans], to the recognizable Nebula.
quote:
Originally posted by Mojo:
I'd like to hear more opinions regarding the "Did the Borg come from Decker-Ilia-V'Ger" concept.
Mojo
quote:
Originally posted by Mojo:
For the new Romulan ship, I'm working with some of Trek's most seasoned designers (as will be the case with all new models).
Who, I ain't saying!
And I ain't saying that just cause he's my pal!
.
. Messing around with Excelsior could give some of the DS9TM Frankensteins, although they are not quite anyone's favorite. .
And look at the timing! They'll think that we're Star Wars fans looking for a scoop on Episode II, for chrissakes!
quote:Oh Oh! Mojo, I wanna see! I'd like to know how close I got!
Originally posted by Mojo:
WOO-HOO! THIS ROCKS!
Just got Andy Probert's design for a Starfleet Hopper. He sent me a bunch of sketches of the Sphinx in various configurations - one with an extended bed and one with an extended bed and a large... ummm... apartment on the back.
Definitely a Hopper!
I'm so excited I'm wetting myself! It's far better than the fan designs. Similar, but much more graceful and believeable.
AND YOU'LL GET TO SEE IT ALL IN STAR TREK: THE UNSEEN FRONTIER!!
Actually, you'll get to see the Sphinx model ahead of time in an upcoming Star Trek Magazine, but in the book you'll get to see it in action - most likely cleaning up some wreckage at Wolf 359.
Then going out for cokes.
Mojo
since I did base it on Probert's wonderful sphinx and all.
quote:One would hope so, given Mr. Probert has an Industrial Design background that most fans lack.
Originally posted by Mojo:
WOO-HOO! THIS ROCKS!
Just got Andy Probert's design for a Starfleet Hopper. ... It's far better than the fan designs. Similar, but much more graceful and believeable.
quote:Well, considering Mandel wrote Star Trek Maps, I imagine so...
Otherwise, I'm relatively optimistic about such a book, since the basic model of a small Federation between Rigel, Deneb, and Antares has been accepted by fandom ever since Star Trek Maps, a publication Mandel is likely to take into consideration
quote:I'm guessing the blobs are the latest upgrade, and whatever torpedoes they used back then wouldn't even be carried...
What else is there that get usually overlooked in Trek about what
these ships would be doing in combat?? Phasers from turrets we never see get used (i.e. the
ones on the nacelle pylons on the Mirandas a la STII:TWOK. Photons... have we seen any
photons in still pics...
could we have a few of those cool "shards of light" torpedoes that we
saw in the TOS movies... and again in "Flashback" - I loved them - they looked so much more
powerful than the 'blobs' seen in First Contact or the 'blobs with starry bits' seen in TNG.
quote:I'm sure the cube took some damage, and was busy repairing it when it ran into the Enterprise-D for the Locutus abduction thing. We see that the cube had left a trail of ionic breadcrumbs in some direction - why would this be significant if the cube would have just packed it in and continued its beeline towards Earth? And what would cause it anyway? Again, probably battle damage.
Something else... did the fleet make MUCH of a dent on the cube? how long did the cube
take to regenerate in Q-Who? How long was the time period between The Battle of Wolf 359
and the next time we see the cube (cause we saw no battle damage)
quote:That would make sense only if the battle had been going on for a while by then, which I doubt. The intent of the script as written would most likely cement the Sagatoga as part of the first wave of ships... Thus, as I've posited before, I think the Borg were interested in getting something from the ship (hull samples, assimilated people, computer information, Jen Sisko's prize dafodills...) that they bothered to lock onto her, and hold her intact while Ben and the crew scrambled to escape.
Also someone asked a question in the other 'questions' thread about why did the Excelsior
Melbourne destruct/breakup so more quickly than the Saratoga... other than story/drama I
would say that maybe the Melbourne had been in battle a lot longer than the Saratoga?
quote:The Melbourne was described as "a fine ship" by Picard. This probably means that the ship was operational and had some history behind it. Odds are then that the ship simply had a captain who was retired or promoted, and Riker was offered the empty space. I'm sure that the Melbourne had an experienced crew aboard already, and it was probably simiply the XO that was in charge at the time - if the former Captain had even left before some tranferal ceremony. For all we know, some old guy was still in his chair when the Melbourne went up.
ALSO Did the Melbourne ever get a new Captain!?! Riker was supposed to be the new
Captain... but he hadn't exactly REFUSED by the time of Wolf 359 - so did the Melbourne go
into battle with out an experienced Captain!?!
quote:The more I think of the fleet this way, the more I get to like the idea. Surely the majority of ships at Wolf 359 were of the finished and fully-crewed variety, but a fraction of them - no more than 6-8 ships (of 40) at the most, I'd say - could be from Utopica Planitia, the reserve fleet, the museum, or the Academy.
Infact maybe this was a problem, maybe the
mad scramble for ships left many ships that might have been 'mothballed' with
skeleton/unexperienced/unqualified/untrained crewmembers!?! Maybe some of the
Engineers of UP/McKinley/SanFran/Luna drydocks offered to help to fill positions!?! Maybe
Academy students DID serve!?! Maybe only one ship - and maybe only final year cadets
and/or "Red Squad". They needed relatively experienced crew... that 'fleet' must have been
VERY rag-tag.
quote:Of course, one "Unseen Frontier" you could haeve shown would be the yards where Starfleet is constructing various prototype Borg Buster ships, including the Defiant. Area 51 in space hee hee.
Originally posted by Mojo:
folks, you have no IDEA how much war is in this book! There is so much phaser fire I think the book will be hot to the touch... It's just that these particular skirmishes don't involve very much Defiant action.
Mojo
quote:The Valient-Class lives! ;-)
Originally posted by mrneutron:
Of course, one "Unseen Frontier" you could haeve shown would be the yards where Starfleet is constructing various prototype Borg Buster ships, including the Defiant. Area 51 in space hee hee.
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Great stuff!
. Haven't opened any of the piccies, but I did have a peek at the filenames... The UF cover is there . You'd probably want to avoid this 'leak'...
quote:Look at the dome of the crab-station... another glow that has been cut off... I suspect the render had a plain black background, and that the ship and the station were cut 'n' pasted over an Earth photo...aka a "rough draft" (like he said).
Just two eency weency qualms... Firstly on McKinley... on the left-hand part of the station on 'top' against the background of Earth there is this round circle... it looks like a light - but it has a black ring around it - like it has been cut out from a black background picture... what is that thing?
How am I supposed to know what else you're planning for it, especially since you've also said you spent quite a bit of time on this in your original post? Just commenting on what I see.![[Confused]](confused.gif)
quote:Oh, KRUNK! First the Decipher Trek RPG, now THIS!
Ok, before the rumors get out of hand, yes, there has been a delay with "Unseen Frontier."
I can safely say that any book you might see will be published well after the holidays.
At the moment I am resolving a few outstanding issues. Once I have some definitive answers, you can bet you'll be hearing from me!
quote:I already HAVE a copy of every Trek reference book.
I suspect the only way the fans can (or rather, could) ensure a speedy release of this book would be (or would have been) to purchase every copy of every Trek reference book since the TNG technical manual.
quote:It'll take even longer to get through to Lincolnshire...
Originally posted by AndrewR:
Any length of time - tack on another 6 months for it to make it to Australia.
. . I guess I must learn patience.