My question is: did we ever see the 'Spacedock' mushroom stations at UP on screen? They were on some CGI beauty shots of the Fleetyards (probably from one of the calenders?).
Do you believe there are Spacedock-type stations at UP? If they are there, then they probably would give UP some defense of its own.
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
The first picture with the spacedock is from a calendar. It wasn't onscreen. The second pic is from the VOY episode "Relativity".
[ January 19, 2002: Message edited by: Spike ]
Posted by Mojo (Member # 536) on :
We wanted to use the big mushroom spacedock in "Relativity," especially since I thought the fans would get a kick out of it.
However, the producers felt that such an old installation would no longer be in use (despite the fact that we saw them on Next Gen) so they asked for a new design, which is what you saw on the show (provided by Doug Drexler).
When it came time for the calendar, I admit it - my stubborness got the better of me and I brought back the original spacedock :-)
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Mojo, you were correct - the Enterprise D was seen as being BUILT inside a mushroom spacedock... see "Booby Trap". That's why I was a bit apprehensive seeing you have it being built in a Drydock. I liked those double ended mushrooms... I wish we could have seen more of them.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Utopia Planitia is doutlessly an expansive facility, there is more than enough room for the old movie spacedock and the newer double ended mushrooms to be present, but not visible in the same shot.
As for the shot of the E-D in a drydock, that was a mistake for several reasons, it should have been in a Mckinley type dock, (as seen correctly in Reletivity). But since it was on a calander we can let it slide ;-)
I would be interested in seeing some of those UP elements upclose. Is that a new variant of dock attached to the Saber? did any of those starships have names or regs? if so what were they? I recall an excelsior being labled NCC-43111 was there a name for that one?
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reverend: As for the shot of the E-D in a drydock, that was a mistake for several reasons, it should have been in a Mckinley type dock, (as seen correctly in Reletivity). But since it was on a calander we can let it slide ;-)
Of course, that might not be the builddock, but perhaps the fitting-out dock. Or not even UP.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Plus, given security reasons, the mushrooms would be necessary for some ships to preserve secrecy from Threat forces. In "Booby Trap" the Enterprise was still in the framework stage (if indeed that was the Enterprise in there). If it's prior to 2357, the launchdate of the USS Galaxy, I'd think everything Galaxy-related would be behind closed spacedoors regardless of how complete it was.
Mark
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
Maybe they built the framework in a mushroom-dock, and then did the paneling in a McKinley-dock or TMP dock (or vice versa)
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
The TNGTM shows a McKinley-style dock as being at least part of the assembly process.
Posted by Ace (Member # 389) on :
From Bernd's site, the Excelsior is the USS Frederickson that we later see in the Dominion War (it's the one being towed in the season opener). He lists it as NCC-42111, though.
EDIT: Look like Bernd made a typo. It is actually named the USS Fredrickson after one of the production people.
[ January 20, 2002: Message edited by: Ace ]
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reverend: I recall an excelsior being labled NCC-43111 was there a name for that one?
That was confirmed as being the NCC-42111 U.S.S. Fredrickson. I think it may have been Mojo himself who confirmed it, but it was somebody from FI, IIRC.
Mojo?
-MMoM
[ January 19, 2002: Message edited by: The Mighty Monkey of Mim ]
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
I'm very surprised to hear that the producers nixed the Spacedock idea because the design was "too old" -- especially since DS9 was still using the old Mirandas and Excelsiors... which are arguably even older!
Not to mention that the Spacedock stations are absolutely huge, and not likely to be replaced very often...
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Nobody has ever accused Paramount executives of being consistant or logical.
quote: He lists it as NCC-42111, though.
One didgit out! my memory isn't what it used to be (and it used to be really bad too).
Anyway, there should be no problem assuming that there is a Mushroom spacedock at UP, we just didn't see it. Mojo, will this space dock be seen in "Unseen frontier"? if so then it might be a good oppertunity to show those enlarged doors mentioned in "Starship Spotter". Remember, there are 4 doors into that thing, so only 1 or 2 of them need to be galaxy sized, while the other 2 can remain conni sized.
As for the E-D in Drydock, the problem is not if it should be in that dock for skeletal work and that one for hull plateing, the problem is that the drydock depicted is identical to the "Generations" version, so the E-D shouldn't be able to fit inside it!
quote: I'm very surprised to hear that the producers nixed the Spacedock idea because the design was "too old" -- especially since DS9 was still using the old Mirandas and Excelsiors... which are arguably even older!
Not to mention that the Spacedock stations are absolutely huge, and not likely to be replaced very often...
Agreed. Something that big is made to last, possibly for several centuries, or even millenia, besides those double ended look just as old, if not older than good ole Spacedock. Anybody else see the similarities to K-7?
[ January 19, 2002: Message edited by: Reverend ]
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Actually, if anything they reminded me a lot of some DS9 concept meshes seen in "The Making of DS9"... And we know other sketches have shown up in other episodes too (notably "Virtuoso").
Mark
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Remind me again what happened in Virtuoso - was that a Voyager episode - it wasn't past Author, Author was it... that's what I'm up to.
The Room was the E-D's drafting room as seen in Booby Trap... I'm pretty sure Geordi looked out at the Enterprise - WTF would it NOT be the Enterprise!?! It was DEFINATELY a big-arsed Space-dock-mushroom.
Even if there are two big doors and two small doors to the Space-dock-mushroom the interior shots of the E-D in the S-D-M show there to be AMPLE space - thus depicting a big-arsed S-D-M for the 24th century.
About Mojo's Calendar pic and Relativity scene of UPshipyards... I agree about the drydocks/McKinley stations with the other types of ships in them - where they filled out the entire docks... the Voyager should NOT have been occupying the same space as a Galaxy, Excelsior-II, Connie etc. Actually Connie and Intrepid would fit - but the Sabres etc should not 'fill the space' and the E-D shouldn't be able to fit when the second type of DryDock from Generations just fit the E-B... as mentioned above. Two Sabres could possibly fit in one drydock. I would have like to have seen a different 'dock' for the smaller ships.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Have another look. Its the Akira thats in the Generations drydock, and the Saber that is in what looks like a variant of the Mckinley station. Paradoxically an excelsior is seen to be berthed in a TMP drydock.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Well, given that the drydock mostly consists of a frame w/ lights on it, I see no reason why they couldn't come in a multitude of sizes...
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
quote:Originally posted by TSN: Well, given that the drydock mostly consists of a frame w/ lights on it, I see no reason why they couldn't come in a multitude of sizes...
Or be modular. You assemble different sized frames for different sized ships. If you stop building a ship of a certain size, you just add a few more brackets to the dock or take away some for the next size.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
I agree. The problem comes from that pesky little habitat module they stuck on for generations, it should be relativly smaller in a Galaxy sized drydock.
Posted by Mojo (Member # 536) on :
- Yes, drydocks are modular and come in different sized
- I FREELY ADMIT that I paid little attention to scaling ships to their proper size in relation to each other for the UP shots. If this story has never been told here, all the UP stuff was done because we WANTED to do it. All the producers asked for (and budgeted) was a single shot of the Voyager in a drydock, but being crazy fans, Rob and I didn't want to get this close to seeing UP and not go all the way. We gave up all our free time for several weeks just so we could do the two shots in the sequence and FINALLY see UP on screen.
Some details slipped by, and the ships sizes were one of them (also contributing to this was the fact that the scene had SO many millions of polygons that we had to break it up into multiple passes, so not until the shot was finished did we actually see all the ships and drydocks onscreen at once. So the comparisons amongst sizes didn't hit home until we were done).
- I've never been a big fan of McKinley station, so I prefer not to use it. Drydocks are just cooler.
- Beat me with a stick, but I never knew that the D was built inside a spacedock. THAT'S WHY I'M HERE!! TO LEARN!! :-)
Besides, we never said it was being built in the drydock! IT was undergoing repairs... or something... and as far as the 2002 calendar, in which we say it's the D being constructed at UP... ummmm... ererrr... a little help?
Mojo
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
Hmm... The spaceframe and other major parts were probably assembled in an MacKanly-type station, since they would need to move large pieces of the ship into position to be welded. A simple drydock seems to lack equipement and support for such a task, while a spacedock would mean having to get the stuff inside, and manuver in much tighter quarters. The majority of smaller internal fitting and whatever Starfleet considered really classified stuff was probably done inside the spacedock, along with system tests and tweaking. Drydock for whatever is considered too dangerous to fool around with inside a spacedock (or a MacKanly again), spit-and-polish and cracking-of-fine-wine-over-hull.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Ahhhh It's nice to know the story behind the UP scene! It's nice to know that you DID know about the scaling sizes ;o) I agree that sweeping scene was great - thanks for the extra time and effort!
Can I ask - in the Calendar version, there seems to be lights on the surface of mars - in the shadowy part on the left... are these city lights or is it just the sun reflected off high mountains/hills/cliffs/mesas?
Also - can anyone CAPTURE the scene with the E-D in Spacedock from "Booby Trap"!?! I believe the 'skeleton' and some of the plating can be seen!
Andrew
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Hey, there's nothing in the central spread image to suggest the E-D was busy being *built* at UP when we see it in the drydock. For all we know, it could be there at any of the times we see her come back to the solar system, for an overhaul or quick refit.
Mark
Posted by mrneutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mojo: [QB- Beat me with a stick, but I never knew that the D was built inside a spacedock. THAT'S WHY I'M HERE!! TO LEARN!! :-) [/QB]
Another theory that would clear up any continuty errors with spacedocks would be that a ship would perhaps move from one facility to another at various stages of construction, testing. The spaceframe is assembled in one place, and maybe there's another entire dock of sorts used for warp engine tests or what have you. That seems a logical explanation for the different types of docks we've seen. a) Mushroom spacedock for out-of-sight construction b) TMP frame spacedock for general construction or hull work (since you can mount work cranes to reach virtually any portion of the ship c) McKinley type "spider" docks which are primarily for resupply and internal repairs and/or as testing facilities, as in... Ent-D leaving McKinley type spacedock Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
ooh.. lookit that.. K't'inga variant.. and the connie refit has the alternate rec room windows probert designed
Posted by Mojo (Member # 536) on :
Andrew:
Good eye, those are indeed city lights on the surface below! They were present in the show, too...
See? We love the fans!
Here's a blooper - all the Workbees in the second shot (with the exception of the one in front of the camera) are flying backwards...
Mojo
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mojo: I FREELY ADMIT that I paid little attention to scaling ships to their proper size in relation to each other for the UP shots. If this story has never been told here, all the UP stuff was done because we WANTED to do it. All the producers asked for (and budgeted) was a single shot of the Voyager in a drydock, but being crazy fans, Rob and I didn't want to get this close to seeing UP and not go all the way. We gave up all our free time for several weeks just so we could do the two shots in the sequence and FINALLY see UP on screen.
Mojo, for that I am extremely grateful. I can't say how happy I am that there are people like you who are paying this much attention to detail. It's one of the reasons why I'm going to pre-order the "Unseen Frontier" book the very day that it's available... you've sold me on this work by your very presence here.
I hate to sound like an overeager fanboy, but it really DOES mean a lot that you put this much effort into your work. Thanks.
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